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      07-28-2014, 10:10 PM   #67
NemesisX
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I think perhaps you feel most Americans wouldn't see the situation as you do? America was founded as a Christian nation, and still has a Christian majority. Christians know the history of the Jews - all the way back 4,000 years, to when Jews and Arabs (now largely Muslims) split - with Abraham's kids. Not sure why you make the blanket assumption that Americans don't know it.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, and they do want to destroy Israel because they are Jewish. Read the Hamas charter - it's all about it.
Oh dear. Yeah that's just flat out not true.
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      07-28-2014, 11:04 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
The Founding Fathers disagree with you. Strongly.

George Washington - a "Deist" (an obsolete religion fairly close to colonial Unitarianism). Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

Thomas Jefferson - Washington was pretty noncommittal about his religion, Jefferson was not. He wrote a Bible, the "Jefferson Bible", whose chief difference was that it removed all references to the divinity of Christ. "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." Jefferson candidacy for President was strongly opposed by any number of Christian ministers, on the basis of his religious views.

John Adams - A lifelong Unitarian, a religion which holds that God is unitary, as opposed to a trinity. Jesus Christ is seen as a good man, but a man.

Famous Adams quote. "... the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." From the Treaty of Tripoli, drafted by Washington, signed by Adams, and passed unanimously by the Senate. In those days they read what they signed.

Benjamin Franklin - "“My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the Dissenting (Protestant) way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of the Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of the sermons which had been preached at Boyle’s Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them. For the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to be much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

James Madison on the idea that the US was any specific religion at all.

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."

Thomas Paine may well have been an atheist (although, in those days, that was pretty much unacceptable), or may simply have been opposed to all organized religion - "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.""

The one thing you can take to the bank is that all of the Founding Fathers were bitterly opposed to having a state religion. Bitterly. They'd seen the religious oppression from the state churches in Europe, and wanted none of it. The implication of calling the US a "Christian nation" would have made them retch. The constitution never uses the word Christ, nor references any specific religion, except in the negative. The omission is not accidental. It is true that almost all had some religious beliefs, but many were not Christians, and few if any linked the founding of the nation to any particular religion.
You mean these guys?:

George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797

James Madison
4th U.S. President

"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
--Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772, Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Tim LaHaye, pp. 130-131; Christianity and the Constitution — The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe, p. 98.

Notice of Correction: I wish to acknowledge that the following quotation, previously attributed to James Madison, has been found to be the actual declaration of Rev. Jonathan Dickinson, first president of Princeton University where James Madison studied. In researching this correction, I discovered as well that some sources wrongly attribute the quote to Rev. John Witherspoon, the president of Princeton University when James Madison graduated.

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History by Stephen K. McDowell, p. 93.

James Monroe
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

William Penn
Founder of Pennsylvania

"I do declare to the whole world that we believe the Scriptures to contain a declaration of the mind and will of God in and to those ages in which they were written; being given forth by the Holy Ghost moving in the hearts of holy men of God; that they ought also to be read, believed, and fulfilled in our day; being used for reproof and instruction, that the man of God may be perfect. They are a declaration and testimony of heavenly things themselves, and, as such, we carry a high respect for them. We accept them as the words of God Himself."
--Treatise of the Religion of the Quakers, p. 355.

Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

"I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

"I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

"I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment."
--The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

"If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

"Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.

Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."
--Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.

John Jay
1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society

"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

"The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."
--In God We Trust—The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.

"In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible."
--American Statesman Series, p. 360.
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      07-29-2014, 02:18 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
You mean these guys?:

George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

James Madison 4th U.S. President

"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
--Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772, Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Tim LaHaye, pp. 130-131; Christianity and the Constitution — The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe, p. 98.
Let's just take the first four on, we have the best evidence for those. Any number of more minor figures were indeed religiously Christian.

A few things to remember here.

The founders were religious. Most anyway, Thomas Paine and Alexander Hamilton are suspect in this regard. But atheism was a sure ticket to being cast aside politically and socially. Everyone praised Christian virtues, but many were not Christian, in the sense of believing in the divinity of Christ, and the divine nature of the Bible. Most all of your quotes are consistent with this model.

Here's an excellent example from Benjamin Franklin, Unitarian, on being asked his views on Christ.

"“Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see.”

"As he left them to us" is Franklin's Unitarian out. Jesus was proclaimed as divine by his disciples, never by himself.

Washington saw religion as potentially divisive, and chose ambiguous wording to not offend anyone. But historians classify him as a Deist, as were many educated Virginians. Virgin births and resurrections were inconsistent with the values of the Enlightenment, which many of these educated people adopted wholeheartedly.

The most ridiculous claim is that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian, in any religious sense. He (as was Franklin) was outspokenly rationalist about the life and death of Christ. The Jefferson Bible is utter proof. As it is proof that Jefferson did not consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. He edited it, significantly.

Your Jefferson quote:

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

was not proclaiming that he was religiously a Christian, it rather was a slam at people who, just as today, were religiously Christian, but did not live their lives according to the values of Jesus Christ. "I am a REAL Christian" was aimed right at those people.

Madison, although religious, had views on the separation of church and state that make the ACLU look like pansies. He refused to issue the traditional Thanksgiving proclamations. Madison on Congressional chaplains:

"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In the strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion."

On proposed laws which favored Christianity:

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?"

He objected to teaching religious studies in public universities.

Although he was religious, if you said to Madison that the US was "founded as a Christian country" he'd spit in your face.

Many Founding Fathers, including our first four Presidents, were either Deists or Unitarians. Jefferson is a little hard to pigeonhole (and he said so), but Christian he was not. These religions, explicitly denied the divinity of Christ. They'd be considered blasphemous to all religious Christians. Jefferson was so condemned by many Christian religious leaders, the "Jefferson Bible" was proof of his blasphemy.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-29-2014 at 03:19 AM.
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      07-29-2014, 03:31 AM   #70
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This is getting beside the point. America was not founded "as a Christian nation." America was founded as a secular nation where its citizens are free to practice any religion they please (or no religion at all). It's not even debate-able and frankly speaking I thought this was common knowledge. The founders went to great lengths to make sure that the U.S. government did not sanction any one, specific religion. Look no further than the first amendment and Jefferson's pledge to erect a wall of separation between church and state.
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      07-29-2014, 03:35 AM   #71
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Now, it's perhaps ironic that despite being founded as a secular nation, America remains as one of the most religious developed nations on the planet (with a majority of the population following some form of Christianity - an assertion I have no problem with). Contrast that with England, for example, which was founded as a Christian nation, and yet England boasts extremely high levels of non-religiosity. Go figure.
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      07-29-2014, 07:40 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NemesisX
Now, it's perhaps ironic that despite being founded as a secular nation, America remains as one of the most religious developed nations on the planet (with a majority of the population following some form of Christianity - an assertion I have no problem with). Contrast that with England, for example, which was founded as a Christian nation, and yet England boasts extremely high levels of non-religiosity. Go figure.
This was actually my original point - that the US has a significant Christian population that does understand the history of Israel.

I would disagree with the statements made above, that the FF's were Deists, etc. - they didn't want a "State Church" - like what England and most of Europe has today - where everyone pays a church tax, for example. But this is off-topic for this thread.

Back to the topic - here's and article on the more recent history of Israel and Gaza:

http://m.washingtonpost.com/opinions...d23_story.html

Palestine is clearly not an "occupied" land
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      07-29-2014, 10:13 AM   #73
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what i dont understand is how people can claim israel is committing war crimes with casualties at around 1000 in 2 weeks but not claim that ISIS is committing war crimes in syria or iraq with HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

is it only a crime if israel is involved?
To draw that conclusion, YOU would be saying that israel and ISIS are similar types of organizations. Extremist religious groups killing mercilessly to promote their beliefs...

Is that what you say Israel is???

Otherwise you would be incorrect to think I was drawing that type of conclusion.
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      07-29-2014, 10:21 AM   #74
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I see plenty of arguments defending Israel but why is it (besides the brainwashing) that Muslims or in this case Palestinians have so many issues with Israel?

I have a muslim friend who would go on about Israel's feel that they have the right to kick you out of your home and call it their own and that its the idea of thinking you own everything that angers the palestinians. Is there any historical references that can back up this type of thinking.

I pray that this thread stays civil lol.
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      07-29-2014, 10:57 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
I see plenty of arguments defending Israel but why is it (besides the brainwashing) that Muslims or in this case Palestinians have so many issues with Israel?

I have a muslim friend who would go on about Israel's feel that they have the right to kick you out of your home and call it their own and that its the idea of thinking you own everything that angers the palestinians. Is there any historical references that can back up this type of thinking.

I pray that this thread stays civil lol.
if that is true why would israel uproot 29,000 jewish israeli families out of gaza in 2005? or why is israel the smallest country in the middle east, it is roughly the size of delaware. if israel was really after land they have the military power to take any land in the middle east.
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      07-29-2014, 11:01 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
To draw that conclusion, YOU would be saying that israel and ISIS are similar types of organizations. Extremist religious groups killing mercilessly to promote their beliefs...

Is that what you say Israel is???

Otherwise you would be incorrect to think I was drawing that type of conclusion.
so you are saying that ISIS is not committing war crimes?

israel is not an extremist religious group. it is actually a secular government based on jewish ideologies that gives everybody equal rights whether you are man, woman, gay, straight,jewish, musli, christian. do you think that same kind of freedom is afforded by ISIS or Hamas? just last week ISIS ordered 4 million women to undergo genital mutilation and forced all christians to either leave mosul or be killed. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ira...lation-n163871

there is no comparison.
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      07-29-2014, 11:09 AM   #77
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this 18 yr old kid addresses every point against israel better than i can. if you have a couple of minutes its worth a look

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      07-29-2014, 11:10 AM   #78
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I would be honestly interested in seeing if EITHER side's current generation of combatants can even remember a specific reason why they hate the other side so vehemently.

Other than they have always done so.
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      07-29-2014, 11:14 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I would disagree with the statements made above, that the FF's were Deists, etc. - they didn't want a "State Church" - like what England and most of Europe has today - where everyone pays a church tax, for example.
Total nonsense, and very much relevant to the thread. Nonsense first, then relevance.

It's well documented that many, including the first three Presidents, were either Deists or Unitarians. Jefferson is the best example. Although he does not fall neatly into either Deism or Unitarianism, to claim him as a Christian is utterly absurd. The Jefferson Bible is not a Christian document, and he was bitterly opposed by many Christian leaders of his time as someone whose religious views made him unworthy of public office.

They were born into Christianity, because to be anything else was illegal in the country of their birth. Once here, many (educated Virginians were well represented here) adopted the rational views of the Enlightenment. Christ was a good man, whose personal ethics were most worthy of emulation. He was not the son of God, born to a virgin mother, or resurrected. The Bible contained much truth, but was creation of man, and included much that was simply fanciful stories, intended to drive home an important point. Those beliefs naturally led them away from Christianity. Like Franklin to Deism, and Adams, to Unitarianism. As hard as it may be to see it now, those religions were quite influential in America at the time.

More importantly, God was to be revered as the ultimate source of all. But he was not engaged in the world of today in a real sense. He had simply set things in motion, and we were responsible for what came next. That's somewhat more relevant.

Now full relevance.

Crucially, for most of the the Founding Fathers there was no one "true" religion. This lies at the heart of the Founding Father's separation of church and state. While it was important to worship God, the manner of doing so was entirely a personal, human judgement. For the government to raise one religion over another was not just a bad idea operationally, it was fundamentally wrong. Madison's writings illuminate this point best. He even makes a passing nod to nonbelief, which was really extreme at that time.

The present situations in the Middle East show how wise the Founding Fathers were to take that view, show exactly what believing yours is the one true religion leads to. That is UncleWede's answer:

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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I would be honestly interested in seeing if EITHER side's current generation of combatants can even remember a specific reason why they hate the other side so vehemently.
In the quintessentially American tradition that religion is a personal, not a government choice, lies the way out. The various Middle East wars are all motivated on every side, by an unshakable view that theirs is the one true religion. But how many Israelis actually think that to a degree which justifies war? How many Palestinians? After what they've experienced?

I believe there is a silent majority on both sides that would be willing to trade religion as a government decision for peace. It's not totally silent, there are some antiwar protestors on both sides working for peace.

How to break through the destructive religious establishments on both sides is both not obvious, and enormously difficult. But I think it can be done. It must be done. There is simply no other way to fix this.

One first step might be for the various parties to modify their organizational documents to embrace not simply religious "tolerance" (a concept which was rejected as inadequate to the majority of our forefathers) but total personal religious freedom. Although that's just a change on paper, it still will be enormously difficult. We've even seen some retreat from the Founding Fathers principles in this regard in this country.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-29-2014 at 11:56 AM.
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      07-29-2014, 11:18 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I would be honestly interested in seeing if EITHER side's current generation of combatants can even remember a specific reason why they hate the other side so vehemently.

Other than they have always done so.
i agree with you but the majority of civilians want peace, its that the hamas extremists clearly do not want peace and they have made that VERY clear. how can we have peace when they hate their enemy more than they love their children?

the people of gaza need to stand up and get rid of hamas once and for all

if hamas lays down their weapons there will be no more violence, if israel lays down its weapons there will be no more israel.
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      07-29-2014, 11:40 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
so you are saying that ISIS is not committing war crimes?

israel is not an extremist religious group. it is actually a secular government based on jewish ideologies that gives everybody equal rights whether you are man, woman, gay, straight,jewish, musli, christian. do you think that same kind of freedom is afforded by ISIS or Hamas? just last week ISIS ordered 4 million women to undergo genital mutilation and forced all christians to either leave mosul or be killed. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ira...lation-n163871

there is no comparison.
No need to state the obvious. Unfortunately you missed my point...

Carry on...
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      07-29-2014, 11:45 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
No need to state the obvious. Unfortunately you missed my point...

Carry on...
ok i see what your saying. maybe you dont think that way but unfortunately there are lot of misinformed people out there who do.
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      07-29-2014, 12:23 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
I see plenty of arguments defending Israel but why is it (besides the brainwashing) that Muslims or in this case Palestinians have so many issues with Israel?

I have a muslim friend who would go on about Israel's feel that they have the right to kick you out of your home and call it their own and that its the idea of thinking you own everything that angers the palestinians. Is there any historical references that can back up this type of thinking.

I pray that this thread stays civil lol.
I'm happy to explain, but I'll make it as brief as possible:

- Israeli's are living on land that was taken away from the Palestinians back in the 1940s. It was taken away by force when the UN decided to give chunks of their land to create Israel and invite all the jews from Europe to come on over and occupy the land. The Palestinians refused to accept this, so they fought back. Since Israel was loaded with money, weapons and support from countries like the US & Britain, Palestinians didn't stand a chance and they couldn't stop it. So they were forced to move from their homes into areas like Gaza and the West Bank (now it's just pieces of the West Bank)

For reference on how small Gaza is, it's about 1/6 the size of the Houston, TX area. So I find it funny when those in the US media say, the Israeli military gives them a 3 minute flash bang warning before they bomb the area. Where are they supposed to go??? They can't leave Gaza, and Gaza is too small to hide anywhere safe. It's a freaking joke.

A lot of the current issue and fighting that Hamas has with Israel, is that they are sick and tired of the blockade on Gaza. Meaning Israel has trapped all Palestinians in this area. No one is allowed to go in and no one is allowed to go out. They regulate what goods go in and what goes out. People there can't even fish more than 3 miles out from the Gaza coast, the Israeli Navy doesn't allow it. They're trapped. It's essentially open air prison as you may have heard others say.

And Americans wonder why Palestinians keep fighting. Americans would to if they were in that position.

Now I'm not saying groups like Hamas are angels, because they're not. But what other means do they have that doesn't include accepting the equivalent of reservations like the Native Americans here in the states.
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      07-29-2014, 01:11 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
I'm happy to explain, but I'll make it as brief as possible:

- Israeli's are living on land that was taken away from the Palestinians back in the 1940s. It was taken away by force when the UN decided to give chunks of their land to create Israel and invite all the jews from Europe to come on over and occupy the land. The Palestinians refused to accept this, so they fought back. Since Israel was loaded with money, weapons and support from countries like the US & Britain, Palestinians didn't stand a chance and they couldn't stop it. So they were forced to move from their homes into areas like Gaza and the West Bank (now it's just pieces of the West Bank)

For reference on how small Gaza is, it's about 1/6 the size of the Houston, TX area. So I find it funny when those in the US media say, the Israeli military gives them a 3 minute flash bang warning before they bomb the area. Where are they supposed to go??? They can't leave Gaza, and Gaza is too small to hide anywhere safe. It's a freaking joke.

A lot of the current issue and fighting that Hamas has with Israel, is that they are sick and tired of the blockade on Gaza. Meaning Israel has trapped all Palestinians in this area. No one is allowed to go in and no one is allowed to go out. They regulate what goods go in and what goes out. People there can't even fish more than 3 miles out from the Gaza coast, the Israeli Navy doesn't allow it. They're trapped. It's essentially open air prison as you may have heard others say.

And Americans wonder why Palestinians keep fighting. Americans would to if they were in that position.

Now I'm not saying groups like Hamas are angels, because they're not. But what other means do they have that doesn't include accepting the equivalent of reservations like the Native Americans here in the states.

the land was not taken away from the Palestinians. it was the jews way before that http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsIte...1/Default.aspx

the land of "palestine" was named for the roman ruler hadrian who crushed a jewish rebellion in 135 AD. before it was called palestine it was called Judea because the JEWS had inhabited it.it didnt refer to the modern day palestinias until way after.

. the "palestinians" came to israel from jordan.( btw, the term palestinian used to refer to all the people in modern day israel which includes both jews and arabs). the 2 state solution that was proposed in 1948 had jordan as the home for the modern-day palestinians and the tiny strip of land that is now israel for the israelis. if the palestinians wanted to stay in israel there was no problem with that but they didnt want to share so they decided to wage a war instead and LOST.that is when israel took over gaza and judea and samaria (west bank). most palestinians cant even trace their heritage in israel back more than 2 or 3 generations.

as far as gazans not having anywhere to run, that is not true. israel sends them warnings via phone calls, leaflets, text messages days in advance. the flash bang is the FINAL warning. they can move 2 buildings down and they wont be harmed. again, hamas is the one forcing civilains onto the roofs to fuel its propaganda war.

the reason there is a blockade right now is because was saw after 200 when israel pulled out of gaza that the number of terrorist attacks on israeli civilians skyrocketed. the blockade is necessary in order to for israel ro protect its civilians. let me ask you this question, if israel removed the blockade tomorrow do you think violence against israelis would stop or would it increase? history has shown us that it would increase.

Last edited by bkM3; 07-29-2014 at 01:17 PM.
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      07-29-2014, 01:15 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
I'm happy to explain, but I'll make it as brief as possible:

- Israeli's are living on land that was taken away from the Palestinians back in the 1940s. It was taken away by force when the UN decided to give chunks of their land to create Israel and invite all the jews from Europe to come on over and occupy the land. The Palestinians refused to accept this, so they fought back. Since Israel was loaded with money, weapons and support from countries like the US & Britain, Palestinians didn't stand a chance and they couldn't stop it. So they were forced to move from their homes into areas like Gaza and the West Bank (now it's just pieces of the West Bank)
if this is true, then that's a legitimate reason why Palestinians are so angry.

why didn't the UN work to find a solution to satisfy both jews and Palestinians? it seems weird to enact a plan that would dissatisfy the majority of the land's inhabitants.
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      07-29-2014, 01:18 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
if this is true, then that's a legitimate reason why Palestinians are so angry.
see my rebuttal above.

by this logic, mexico would have the right to attack texas and southern california for basically the same reason.
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      07-29-2014, 01:34 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
see my rebuttal above.

by this logic, mexico would have the right to attack texas and southern california for basically the same reason.
the Mexican American war was also controversial, but it ended in a treaty. from my understanding, there's ongoing violence in Israel because cease fire talks fell through.

im still trying to understand why this two state solution was forced upon the Palestinians if they didn't want it. why couldnt the jews just settle somewhere else if they wanted their own state?
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      07-29-2014, 01:39 PM   #88
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Unlike many here I see no good guys and bad guys.

But the idea that Palestinians (especially those in Gaza, to a lesser degree those on the West Bank, and to a lesser degree, those in Israel proper) have the same rights as Israelis is absurd. Among many other things they have not remotely the same freedom of movement. Palestinians routinely get longer sentences than Israelis for the same crime.

While ostensibly they have the same rights to government services, in practice do you think actually Palestinian neighborhoods are serviced equally by municipal government? The same access to electricity and water? The same property rights? The same quality public schools? Dream on.

Both ultra orthodox Jews and Palestinians do not serve in the Israeli army. So neither can get veterans benefits. The ultra orthodox Jews get compensation for that. Palestinians, not so much.

Etc. Discrimination against Palestinians abound. In March 2010, a report released by several Israeli civil rights groups stated that the current Knesset was "the most racist in Israeli history" with 21 bills proposed in 2008 and 2009 that would discriminate against the country's Arab minority.

Israel is officially a "Jewish state". As I've tried to argue above (post #79), such distinctions are a barrier to any true peace.

The above should in no way be interpreted as defining "good guys" and "bad guys". They're just some facts.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-29-2014 at 01:50 PM.
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