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10-03-2012, 12:36 PM | #1 |
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Velos Designwerks | An in-depth look into Supercharger System differences
Over the past few years, the most common topic in regards to the S65 and aftermarket performance has been "Which Supercharger kit is better" (or something along those lines). It has been discussed so much it's turning into one of those topics that you do not discuss among friends such as politics and religion as it could quickly ruin a friendship.
I am confident in saying that i doubt anyone has had more experience with the two most popular candidates than I have. Over the past few years I have had countless hours of direct contact with both the AA Systems as well as the ESS Systems. Everything from have hours of seat time behind the wheel of E92's equipped with both kit down to the packaging of each kit and everything in between. I would like to touch on a few topics while I post the differences of both systems. The list of similarities is pretty short, both are supercharger systems applied to the S65 engine. Thats might just about be it. Power and Power delivery: Horsepower and Torque gains are just about the most discussed aspect of the systems.**If anyone has any questions or would like to discuss any points of my post please do so and i will answer to the best of my ability. Dyno Charts used for reference: Both charts were done at the same Dyno Jet. How do i know? Like Chris Berman would say on Sports Center "because we were there". Both posted in SAE and Smoothing 5. ESS VT-625 System with full exhaust and no meth: Last edited by [Deactivated-Velos]; 10-03-2012 at 12:49 PM.. |
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10-03-2012, 01:30 PM | #4 |
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10-03-2012, 02:14 PM | #6 |
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Good post. What about the other companies with S/Cs for the S65? It'd be nice to have an informative post including the other companies too and their pros/cons in your opinion - probably wouldn't have gotten this kind of attention.
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10-03-2012, 02:18 PM | #7 |
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Maybe saying " Let us look at the system differences " rather than " Which is better."
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10-03-2012, 02:27 PM | #8 | |
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Back on topic do you have dates of the dynos? To make it clear I am not taking sides...but the informative thread doesn't seem transparently informative. Last edited by Jon@Bimmersport Automotive; 10-03-2012 at 02:33 PM.. |
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10-03-2012, 02:42 PM | #9 | |
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The only other company worth mentioning would be VF and it would be unfair to comment on that system. Kudos to Nik and his team and we respect him for finally bringing a complete system to the market and not doing so until it was complete (VF has one of the first E9X M3's running a SC kit in the country) As far as Salman and his team at Evolve are concerned I respect the fact that he is patiently waiting to come to the market with a finished product. Salman chose to go a different route with the blower and I have watched Evolve reach where they are from just being a reseller. These are both companies that seem to be standing behind their product and offering the consumer a complete product. Over the past couple of weeks there have been a number of people asking about the differences between the two systems mentioned in this thread. The fact that we understand the system better than the individuals that offer them I think it would make sense for us to come forward with the information. (Johnny and Andrew I am sure you understand this) Standing behind a product is very important, but it is also good to know when to go back to the drawing board or choose a different route. This thread along with its title were bold and meant to provide facts for the client interested in a SC kit. At the end of the day we are also enthusiasts and I too have my popcorn in hand .. with the keyboard close by. edit: Johnny good job editing your post... and most "debates" aren't too informative in the first hour... Best Regards, |
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10-03-2012, 02:44 PM | #10 | ||||
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Jean, I know you're well versed on semantics and forum posts, so I'll address a few things that I noticed.
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As for pressure drop, have you personally measured pre and post cooler pressure differences on both kits on a day with similar conditions? You can't compare the N54 to the S63TU, obviously the twin turbo v8 makes more power than the straight 6 3.0L. The N55 was released air-air, along with the N20. If you've worked on the S63TU you'll notice that with the location of the turbos it's not logical to run an air-air setup. Quote:
Banging the rev limiter like the e46 M3 is how you bend rods. You put the most stress on a motor when you lift at high rpm under load. Again, different tuners will do different things, it's preference. Quote:
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The ESS car peaks higher, but it also revs higher.
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10-03-2012, 03:01 PM | #11 | |
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Quite lean AFR's on the ESS dyno run.
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10-03-2012, 03:02 PM | #12 | |||
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Sadly I have no experience with the other systems so I can not provide any feedback even if i wanted too. Quote:
However, you are correct: "Differences" would have been the politically correct term. However, I am addressing a question that is posted way too often lately. Quote:
Once you work with a system or for a company, you automatically believe in it and that it's the best. Regardless if you confidence is well placed or false. I've had the chance to open up both systems on multiple occasions and drive them each for hours. Thanks for appreciating the thread. |
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10-03-2012, 03:17 PM | #13 | |
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Right on Jean. Agreed,a question and topic that is posted way too often. We all can't give our experiences and it always just a handful of people getting in on this. I hit the track with Vettes and GTR's and AMG's and I have no complaints.
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10-03-2012, 03:19 PM | #14 | ||||||
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The Air to Air intercooler on the AA system is poorly placed directly behind the bumper. We both know the benefits of cooling comes from having cool air hit a larger surface area into a cooler with less restriction. Due to the intercooler placement, this benefit has been nullified. Quote:
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David we both know everyone is not as hands on and technically inclined as you are. Some may not realize the light has not turned on until after a few pulls... Quote:
However, as stated above, i agree with you 100% as far as everything being preference. |
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10-03-2012, 03:19 PM | #15 |
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Didn't you guys used to work for AA? Now bashing them? Just brought this up a few mins ago but I'm guessing the mods removed it. Lets see how long this one stays up
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10-03-2012, 03:20 PM | #16 |
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I touched on this when i originally posted that dyno chart.
See here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...2&postcount=13 |
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10-03-2012, 03:34 PM | #17 | |
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Btw Lost marine is not a stock 535 he has an upgraded pulley and meth 500whp according to him. |
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10-03-2012, 03:41 PM | #18 | |
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However, from a consumer standpoint why would this added feature alone propel me towards one system or another? Another question, how comparable would a level 2 system be without meth? I've seen you post that meth is now only required for vehicles running 91 octane, with a lower rev limit and less power wouldn't the system be more enticing if the cost of the meth system were removed from the equation? |
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10-03-2012, 03:42 PM | #19 |
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My kit didnt have a light, and my car blew up cause of your supercharger, and no responsibilty was taken, You guys actaully made me pay 2k to take my motor apart after it blew and made some excuse as it was a bmw oil failure that would of happened even if my cars was stock..... how many car have blown on your kit already 5-6 ??? Also my car was dct no overrevving. I have emails and pics to prove it, btw my car was the the matte green 4 door with copper wheels for reference
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10 Matte black E63 ADV1 05 Last edited by mchm3; 10-03-2012 at 03:50 PM.. |
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10-03-2012, 03:45 PM | #20 | |
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A level 2 without meth would be our level 1 kit. Our level 2 works great with meth and it will not be removed from the kit to save money. |
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10-03-2012, 03:49 PM | #21 | |
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Do you understand the the benefits/purpose of meth? |
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10-03-2012, 03:50 PM | #22 |
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Agreed. 13 @ redline is even leaner than the STOCK targets with no supercharger fitted.
The stock target at redline is .85 lambda, or 12.5:1 AFR. From what I've seen the ESS VT625 kit targets .83 lambda, so unless they have decided to lean this out, it should theoretically be around 12.2:1 at redline. (Another note, I didn't look to see if this was a VT625 dyno, maybe if it was a 600 or 535 they are running higher targets. Regardless of the kit, I think leaner than the stock targets is the wrong way to go). Way too many AA vs ESS supercharger threads. I'm genuinely interested in what the eVolve system will do. Jean, do you by change have an AFR reading from the AA dyno you posted in the OP? I would be curious to see what their fueling looks like.
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