M3 vs. STi

[Intheworks]

M3= luxuryAND performance
STI= performance

[madfast]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Lol! Ok, it is insane to think that BMW has better design, engineering and manufacturing capability than Mitsubishi. I must be crazy! You should go back to your shit box Lancer and stroke it's oversized wing now.

-SZ

not crazy. just closed minded and ignorant.

[quality_sound]

^^^Exactly. Mitsubishi is building exactly the car they want to build and doing so at a price that means they'll sell more that if they were building an M3 competitor. Let's face it, the market segment for the M3 isn't nearly as big as the demographic of this board thinks it is.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

It is not being a fanboi. You are comparing an EVO, which by any meausure is a modified version of the shittiest car ever (the Lancer), to an M3. Well, the Cavalier is probably the shittiest car ever, but the Lancer is a close second.

However, this thread is a waste. One day, when you actually drive an M3, you will understand everything that you are being told. Until then, beleive that your EVO is the greatest performing machine modern engineering has to offer.

-SZ

The Evo 8 is a cheaply made car. Manufacturing cost on my 8 was about $20K prior to export IIRC.

Stock out of the box the steering and feedback is superior to my e92. With the few $k of mods, it's as faster on a road course than just about any street car with production numbers over 300. Yes it has tons of hp. yes it breaks, I won't argue there.

The Evo goes to the track. The BMW handles every thing else - except the dog, groceries, canyon runs, and surprised reactions.

Have you ever seen the old BMW commercial where the guy walks by the Porshe and goes to drive the BMW 2002?

In my house the e92 = Porsche and the Evo = 2002.

Say what you want. IMHO the Evo is just plain more fun.

It's "the driver's seat" and you wouldn't know unless you drove them back to back to back.

[powertrip]

Just had a couple of guys get their '11 STi's tuned. I can officially say that Subaru fixed their factory tune, so there shouldn't be any more broken ringlands on factory cars. Only took them 5 model years to get it right .

I was impressed with how smooth the engines turned out, and these STi sedans are lookers in the right color .

[dexx]

Since I own an M3 and a Subaru - for very few $$$ you can mod the subaru to power levels beyond the M3. Put 275/35/r19's all the way around, no problem at all. Center of gravity is about 4 inches below the asphalt. It's got more rubber, lower center of gravity less weight, all wheel drive.. That's a fun car.. and extremely reliable. 99k miles on the Subaru with upgraded turbo ~400chp, and even more torque. Everything is in perfect health (I do all my own work), the only things I've fixed outside of normal wear and tuning was one wheel bearing.

M3 on the other hand has throttle response and better brakes. Forget all the luxury items. But FYI Subaru actually has all of that stuff - if you buy it in Japan. Stripped out of the North American market, ugh.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by madfast

not crazy. just closed minded and ignorant.

Ok that is your opinion. However, the one who is comparing their EVO to an M3 is you.

I have never owned any EVO but did own a 2004 WRX with a TurboXS Stage 4+ kit, upgraded brakes and Tein adjustable coilover suspension. Yes, it was fast. I ran 11.9 on pump gas at Buds Creek consistently and it handled
turns nicely as well. However, the difference between my M3 and my WRX was worlds apart.


I am telling you, one day when you drive an M3 or own one, you will understand what I am talking about. There is no comparison.

Don't you hate when the SRT4 guys compare their Neon to your EVO? It doesn't take a genious to figure out that both an STI and an EVO are far superior to the SRT4, however, every time some kid drops $15k on their neon and $600 in upgrades, they automatically think their car is superior to that STI or EVO.

The difference between the SRT4 and WRX/STI is like night and day. The difference between all these cars (STI,EVO,SRT4) and an M3 is a galaxy apart.

-SZ

[NYCM3ryder]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Ok that is your opinion. However, the one who is comparing their EVO to an M3 is you.

I have never owned any EVO but did own a 2004 WRX with a TurboXS Stage 4+ kit, upgraded brakes and Tein adjustable coilover suspension. Yes, it was fast. I ran 11.9 on pump gas at Buds Creek consistently and it handled
turns nicely as well. However, the difference between my M3 and my WRX was worlds apart.


I am telling you, one day when you drive an M3 or own one, you will understand what I am talking about. There is no comparison.

Don't you hate when the SRT4 guys compare their Neon to your EVO? It doesn't take a genious to figure out that both an STI and an EVO are far superior to the SRT4, however, every time some kid drops $15k on their neon and $600 in upgrades, they automatically think their car is superior to that STI or EVO.

The difference between the SRT4 and WRX/STI is like night and day. The difference between all these cars (STI,EVO,SRT4) and an M3 is a galaxy apart.

-SZ

NICELY SAID!!!!

[madfast]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Ok that is your opinion. However, the one who is comparing their EVO to an M3 is you.

I have never owned any EVO but did own a 2004 WRX with a TurboXS Stage 4+ kit, upgraded brakes and Tein adjustable coilover suspension. Yes, it was fast. I ran 11.9 on pump gas at Buds Creek consistently and it handled
turns nicely as well. However, the difference between my M3 and my WRX was worlds apart.


I am telling you, one day when you drive an M3 or own one, you will understand what I am talking about. There is no comparison.

Don't you hate when the SRT4 guys compare their Neon to your EVO? It doesn't take a genious to figure out that both an STI and an EVO are far superior to the SRT4, however, every time some kid drops $15k on their neon and $600 in upgrades, they automatically think their car is superior to that STI or EVO.

The difference between the SRT4 and WRX/STI is like night and day. The difference between all these cars (STI,EVO,SRT4) and an M3 is a galaxy apart.

-SZ

i never compared the evo with the m3. my original statement is that the m3 is 2x the price but it isnt 2x the car. people like you contend that it is and that's simply misguided fanboyism.

i can respect cars like the SRT4, for what it is. you on the other hand...

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by madfast

i never compared the evo with the m3. my original statement is that the m3 is 2x the price but it isnt 2x the car. people like you contend that it is and that's simply misguided fanboyism.

i can respect cars like the SRT4, for what it is. you on the other hand...

Are you done? If not a comparison, what was the aim of your question?

Is the M3 worth 2X the price of an EVO? Well, in order to attempt to answer your question, you probably have to consider both the tangible and intangible attributes of both cars. Even if the parts of both cars were exactly the same in terms of cost, I suspect the M3 would still probably be priced higher.

However, to look at cost from such a 1-dimensional point of view is in my opinion, economically ignorant. One can make the same argument with a Cayman S and an M3. The M3 has as nice or nicer interior but is bigger therefore, requires more material. Has a superior engine, body panels are probably more expensive on the M3 because of the materials used and the m3 obviously has more bells, whistles and electronic gadgetry than the Cayman or even the 911 for that matter. However, the Cayman starts at $70k, the 911 at around $90k and the m3 starts at $60k.

So, in the example above, what makes the Cayman S or 911 more expensive than the m3? It probably has very little to do with actual material cost but probably more to do with market demand for a vehicle of its caliber.

The market for a $60k EVO is very slim. Even if EVOs where priced the same as an m3, how many people would actually choose the EVO over an m3? I am willing to bet, that neither you or I would choose the EVO over an M3.

If an m3 was priced like an EVO, assume $35k, how many people would choose the EVO over the m3? I am willing to bet that the m3 will be chosen a majority of the time as well.

Now, without taking anything away from an EVO, because it IS a cool little car that is fast out of the box and even faster when mildly modded, not just does an m3 (or any BMW for that matter) have a level of desirability that is hard to match by many cars, but it is a beautifully designed car, that happens to be engineered and built very well. Aside, from the aforementioned attributes, the m3 has a history or pedigree if you will, that makes it even more desirable and therefore, allowing BMW to charge more for it.

In terms of racing pedigree, I think Ferrari and Porsche are at the top followed by BWM and Mercedes. Obviously, a Ferrari 458 is a beautiful and amazing machine and it also costs almost $300k. Do you think that $300k is proportional to the cost of manufacturing the vehicle? I am sure that somewhere in that $300k, Ferrari is charging for its pedigree, prestige, desirability and exclusivity. To a lesser extent, Porsche, BMW and Merc do the same thing.

However, have you ever sat in a Ferrari or driven a GT3? Once you are in such a car, one can quickly realize why it is worth so much. While the m3 is not a Ferrari or a Porsche, one can still come to a very similar realization when driving one; It is an amazing, beautiful and well balanced machine.

-SZ

[graider]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Lol! Ok, it is insane to think that BMW has better design, engineering and manufacturing capability than Mitsubishi. I must be crazy! You should go back to your shit box Lancer and stroke it's oversized wing now.

-SZ

sub, the gt3 rs has the biggest wing out of all production cars with red lip stick to boost. evo is only second biggest, so it definitely need a bit stroking to beat the gt3 rs wing

with that said though, i personally don't mind the current evo at all. I kinda like it. I haven't driven one, but sat in one at the car show and driving position was good, seat fits like a condom and felt better than the m3/s5 seats that I tested at the same car show.

[ihyln]

where do these people come from? are their respective forums so dead that they need to troll here?

do any M3 owners go trolling on porsche or ferrari forums extolling the virtues of their car that is a fraction of the price?

PS.

Sub-zero, stop biting troll bait

[madfast]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

If an m3 was priced like an EVO, assume $35k, how many people would choose the EVO over the m3? I am willing to bet that the m3 will be chosen a majority of the time as well.

this is the statement that shows you just dont get it. how on earth would bmw design and manufacture a M3 for 35k? it would be a WAAAAY different M3 than what we have now. having said that, this hypothetical $35k M3, would THAT car be SOOOO much better than the evo we have now? you cannot say this and be objective.

a million dollar car will have the design of a million dollar car, the engineering of a million dollar car, the engine of a million dollar car, the materials of a million dollar car, etc.... would a $35k M3 use a 4.0L V8 that revs to 8400 rpm? puhleez! that engine alone probably costs more than my pos evo...

the whole point that im trying to get across is that when you look at the performance of 2 cars, that are so far apart in cost, you cannot say "well the more expensive car costs more because it performs better"... instead you have to realize that the more expensive car performs so well because it costs so much... can a veyron exist without its astronomical price tag? would F1 be the same if all teams had the same budget?

[graider]

Originally Posted by ihyln

where do these people come from? are their respective forums so dead that they need to troll here?

do any M3 owners go trolling on porsche or ferrari forums extolling the virtues of their car that is a fraction of the price?

PS.

Sub-zero, stop biting troll bait

no, but i see porsche, audi owners troll m3 forum daily.

just kidding, i do troll other forum on a regular basic especially 6speed cause that's where shift@red troll as well.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by ihyln

where do these people come from? are their respective forums so dead that they need to troll here?

do any M3 owners go trolling on porsche or ferrari forums extolling the virtues of their car that is a fraction of the price?

PS.

Sub-zero, stop biting troll bait

im not trolling. im simply calling out fanboyism when i see it. case in point: any M3 vs Mustang 5.0/Boss thread. if you cannot tip your hat to what ford has achieved then you are simply a fanboy. im not saying trade in your M3 for a stang, but if you cant even recognize how far ford has come, then you are just

[zhangzeyuandss]

Originally Posted by madfast

this is the statement that shows you just dont get it. how on earth would bmw design and manufacture a M3 for 35k? it would be a WAAAAY different M3 than what we have now. having said that, this hypothetical $35k M3, would THAT car be SOOOO much better than the evo we have now? you cannot say this and be objective.

a million dollar car will have the design of a million dollar car, the engineering of a million dollar car, the engine of a million dollar car, the materials of a million dollar car, etc.... would a $35k M3 use a 4.0L V8 that revs to 8400 rpm? puhleez! im sure that engine alone costs more than my pos evo...

the whole point that im trying to get across is that when you look at the performance of 2 cars, that are so far apart in cost, you cannot say "well the more expensive car costs more because it performs better"... instead you have to realize that the more expensive car performs so well because it costs so much... can a veyron exist without its astronomical price tag? would F1 be the same if all teams had the same budget?

it is funny when you know that m3 can't cost 35k and you know god damn well it worth more than that , still you are comparing it with a evo. think about it, there is a diminishing returning effect in terms of performance. 200 hp can get you to 150mph, but 400 hp will not get you to 300mph. the cost to get more performance from NA engine is so much more than from a FI engine.That is why ferrari engine is so unique because they do not use turbos just pure NA power..My point is m3 cost more be because the its price has the including the cost to engineering R&D,selling administrative cost, so much more.Also, even comparing the transmission, the m3'dct is 7speed adjustable drive logic that driver can adjust the shift pattern to their style, what about the evo dct...it is just a dct.... there are different dct in term of technology and performance. Did you ever seen a huge billboards that Audi is comparing their cars to evo ?No,simply because they do not have to,because they know if a person is shopping of a luxury performance sedan, they will not cross shopping with evo. yes, it terms of performance ,evo will probably outperform most of audi cars. There are so much more than just performance about a car. For a people who really care about other aspect of the car not just performance, m3 well worth the money. it is just my 2 cent.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by ihyln

where do these people come from? are their respective forums so dead that they need to troll here?

do any M3 owners go trolling on porsche or ferrari forums extolling the virtues of their car that is a fraction of the price?

PS.

Sub-zero, stop biting troll bait

I know, i know....lol. I give up on this guy.

The only word he seems to know is fanboism.

-SZ

[madfast]

Originally Posted by zhangzeyuandss

Also, even comparing the transmission, the m3'dct is 7speed adjustable drive logic that driver can adjust the shift pattern to their style, what about the evo dct...it is just a dct.... there are different dct in term of technology and performance.

it just so happens that the mitsu DCT is made by getrag and is one of the best DCT's on the market. its actually not so far off from the M DCT, also made by getrag, so its not "just a DCT"...

in fact the dct transmission is a perfect example of what im trying to say. is M DCT better than SST? sure you bet, but it also costs more. the M3 is an expensive car so they can tell getrag i want 7 speeds and a crapload of software to change shift points etc... the SST? it has 6 speeds and 3 modes. thats it. could they have had multiple shift modes as well? SURE! it would just cost more. but the evo isnt an expensive car so they couldnt.

so you have to ask yourself this. should we be in awe of how awesome M DCT is? or maybe perhaps we should be surprised that a lesser version of that same tranny is available in a car half the price? be surprised that the SST is basically a lower version of trannies found in the M3, 458, and SLS? is the SST a crap tranny because it only has 3 modes? or is it one of the best trannies you can get for that price range?

its a perspective thing. get off your pedestal sometimes and look at things from a different perspective....

[Optherion]

Let me hurry down to the nearest mitsu dealer and trade in a few cars. I surely am missing out on life without an Evo.

Although I will say I once considered an EvoVIII Track car until I drove one that was supposedly 800 hp. It was completely over powered and out of balance. Yes, I paid triple the amount for a GT3 cup car that is slower. Am I a fan boy? YES. We are all fans of something. I appreciate heritage, quality, German R&D.

The biggest point of this thread. Not everything is about numbers. Its not about lap times, and not about the 35k vs 70k. Some people have dreams and goals to own a certain car. If they have achieved that and worked hard, I will never knock someone for buying a 70k dollar car. Why would you berate someone because they spent more on something that gives them passion. Does your evo not give you passion and enjoyment? At the end of the day, we don't sit at the bar and talk about "ring" times or quarter mile. When ur behind the wheel you dont think "damn i just pulled a 0-60 in about 4.6 and a 1.8 60f.t. omgz awesome!" You don't, you smile and enjoy it. Maybe you are one of those people that have to spew out information to your passengers about how awesome your car is lol.

Sorry guys for feeding the trolls! But these always make me laugh. People ask me how fast most my cars are, Ive honestly forgot all specs of the R8 after having it a year. Hell I cant even remember how much torque it has. It puts a smile on my face and yes it was worth every penny.

[Scoobe]

Originally Posted by Optherion

Let me hurry down to the nearest mitsu dealer and trade in a few cars. I surely am missing out on life without an Evo.

Although I will say I once considered an EvoVIII Track car until I drove one that was supposedly 800 hp. It was completely over powered and out of balance. Yes, I paid triple the amount for a GT3 cup car that is slower. Am I a fan boy? YES. We are all fans of something. I appreciate heritage, quality, German R&D.

The biggest point of this thread. Not everything is about numbers. Its not about lap times, and not about the 35k vs 70k. Some people have dreams and goals to own a certain car. If they have achieved that and worked hard, I will never knock someone for buying a 70k dollar car. Why would you berate someone because they spent more on something that gives them passion. Does your evo not give you passion and enjoyment? At the end of the day, we don't sit at the bar and talk about "ring" times or quarter mile. When ur behind the wheel you dont think "damn i just pulled a 0-60 in about 4.6 and a 1.8 60f.t. omgz awesome!" You don't, you smile and enjoy it. Maybe you are one of those people that have to spew out information to your passengers about how awesome your car is lol.

Sorry guys for feeding the trolls! But these always make me laugh. People ask me how fast most my cars are, Ive honestly forgot all specs of the R8 after having it a year. Hell I cant even remember how much torque it has. It puts a smile on my face and yes it was worth every penny.

Well said. All of us, when we see a car it gives us an impression. Manufacturers have impressions they put upon people. Nearly everyone, when they see a car something pops in their head, like "I bet the guy in that car has a mullet", or "I bet thats some hip-hop idiot with his hat sideways". It doesn't matter if its true or not, thats just life and human psychology. Depending on what you see when you look at a car will determine if you'd ever own one. Some people see an M3 and think "asshole", some people see an STI/Evo and think "hip-hop knuckle-head". If those things don't pop in you're head, you'll probably own one... or if you actually are the stereotype the car exudes.

[cavasoti]

Originally Posted by M3LOL

eh..
"take away the leather interior"- while the interior is much better on the bmw, they both have leather
"Sports seats"- the seats are not more sport oriented in the m3, better yes, but not more sport oriented
"414HP NA V8"- 415 can be had in an sti for about $600, but the 300+ wtq at 3000 rpm cannot be had in the m3 for any price.
"carbon roof"- yeah, its cool
"EDC suspension"- whtvr, im in sport at all times
"DCT transmission"- NOT i plus imo
"and the ability to program all that to "M Mode"- there is the si drive in the subie that is similar, only controls the engine mapping though.
"and you almost have a Subaru"- so take the do-hickeys, but leave the performance?

Seriously, you must be stupid to say these things.
First I drive an 2008 Evo MR, and I am trying to get an M3 coupe, hopefully next week I will have mine.
Anyway, I just want to know how you get 415HP with $600 on the STI? the modding on the STI is a lot more expensive then the Evo, just the Tune alone on the Evo is $500 for a good tuner (IveyTune) and I got +40WHP with full exhaust and intake. to get the STI to that level you need at lease $5k.
And by the way, I beat the shit out of the STI on the track a couple months ago.. so you should be at the EvoForums trying to talk shit first.
You are trying to justify you choice of buying an STI and not comparing both cars. I test drove the M3 the other day, and it is just not possible to compare. the Evo feels faster at the beginning but at higher revs it struggles where the M3 asks for more. the Evo feels more like a street car when the M3 is way more luxury and fast. the M3 is just my dream car, dont get me wrong, I love the evo and the ride is fun as hell, it handles ridiculously well and the look is so beautiful. but I dont want to deal with warranty issues in case I have one after I have been tuned. the M3 is faster as it is, and you cant beat the luxury that is has.. I just hope I get it next week..
and you subbie guy.. go drive you car and shut ur mouth.

[jdgamble]

Originally Posted by madfast

my original statement is that the m3 is 2x the price but it isnt 2x the car. people like you contend that it is and that's simply misguided fanboyism.

Let me preface this by saying that the EVO is a fun car, but, in my opinion (and probably many on this board will agree with me), the M3 is more than twice the car. The EVO (and STI) feel like tin cans compared to ANY BMW. I sat in both at a recent car show, and I'm pretty sure the interior plastics are derived from recycled elementary school trash cans. I say elementary school cuz the $12 trash can I got at Target (TM) feels like a much higher quality plastic than the EVO interior. To me, the EVO feels like a toy... like the Star Wars action figures I had when I was like 8... with the dangerous lead-based paint... you know the ones. The M3, on the other hand, is the perfect blend of luxury, performance, practicality, and quality. I'm sure you can understand and agree with this perspective!

Glad we had this little talk