Do you feel Horse Power or Power of Suggestion?

[J08M3]

Let me start this thread by first stating that in no way am I bashing any aftermarket products, or claiming any products don't produce gains, or that the company is lying about the gains. But I find it a little strange that almost every product claims approx. 8-10 HP. How can we have so many different aftermarket products for this car that all somehow produce the same HP gains? How come more don't produce 2-3 HP, while others produce 20-25 HP? Is 8-10 HP a good marketing number for aftermarket companies? Can anyone really feel 8-10 HP increase on a 414 HP car just driving it on the street? I have read many threads where people add a part that claims less than 10 HP yet the driver feels the car is faster. Do they really feel the gain if any? Or is it mind over matter? Are they feeling the suggestion that their car is faster? For example maybe you're so excited about the sound of your new mufflers that you step on the gas harder more often than you did before. Is the car faster because your mufflers claim 10 HP or is your car faster because now you like to floor it more often?

Just a thought I had after reading countless claims of peoples butt dyno feeling gains when the product is only claiming such a small percentage of overall power increase. Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? Please share.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by J08M3

Let me start this thread by first stating that in no way am I bashing any aftermarket products, or claiming any products don't produce gains, or that the company is lying about the gains. But I find it a little strange that almost every product claims approx. 8-10 HP. How can we have so many different aftermarket products for this car that all somehow produce the same HP gains? How come more don't produce 2-3 HP, while others produce 20-25 HP? Is 8-10 HP a good marketing number for aftermarket companies? Can anyone really feel 8-10 HP increase on a 414 HP car just driving it on the street? I have read many threads where people add a part that claims less than 10 HP yet the driver feels the car is faster. Do they really feel the gain if any? Or is it mind over matter? Are they feeling the suggestion that their car is faster? For example maybe you're so excited about the sound of your new mufflers that you step on the gas harder more often than you did before. Is the car faster because your mufflers claim 10 HP or is your car faster because now you like to floor it more often?

Just a thought I had after reading countless claims of peoples butt dyno feeling gains when the product is only claiming such a small percentage of overall power increase. Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? Please share.

Unless the aftermarket item is quantitatively proven to be faster or stronger (i.e., dyno charts, track speeds, PencilGeek testing) then it is just the sensation of being faster or stronger.

I feel like my car is faster after changing the mufflers, however I don't have any proof other than what I feel. I could have paid $75 for a before and after dyno, but I did not. But for sure, it feels good to me. Just like a placebo in a drug trial...

[M3-loverboy]

Interesting set of questions. I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say. I think it could be both though. I can see where you would trick yourself into feeling more power because you just paid $$$ for it.

[shchow]

From what I have seen, it is not any one single mod to achieve the desired end result. Most people who do modify their car do so in increments to obtain horsepower gains that are worthwhile. There is not any one single mod, other than maybe a stroker engine or nitrous, that will give you those gains.

[sparkyg]

PG testing ftw!!

[nullspace]

For a 414 hp car, adding 8 hp is less than a 2% change. I don't think there's way someone could feel that - the performance of an individual car varies by more than 2% all the time: temperature fluctuations, surface conditions, etc.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by M3-loverboy

Interesting set of questions. I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say. I think it could be both though. I can see where you would trick yourself into feeling more power because you just paid $$$ for it.

Thanks... My intent with this thread is to keep it an open conversation that is opinion based. So there is no right or wrong answers here. Trying to get people thinking and some different points of view.

To continue on my thought of 8-10 HP for a good marketing number. It seems most of us agree our butt dyno can't feel that change. Also stated in this thread is the fact our cars can difference in <2% power from day to day. Is it possible the companies market at this claimed gain because it would be very hard for the consumer to prove the gain? and most of us mentally want to believe we got a gain from our $ so we don't really question that we might not be getting it? I would think if a company put out a claimed 25 HP product it would be much easier to question. Probably with just daily driving most of us would feel if the gain was really there.

[MMMorish]

Finally, a thought provoking thread!

I would say that it is a bit of both. Most times when you're modding your car, the general thing to do after a specific mod is to test drive it and see if you can feel a difference. I can easily agree with the notion that having a louder exhaust may make you think that your car is actually faster because you're flooring it more to hear its sweet new sound. Having said that, I can also agree that some people could subconsciously convince themselves that their new $3000.00 exhaust made their car faster because they just spent a whole load of cash for it so it better be!

After market tuner companies who release products obviously know that in order for the consumer to buy into their claim of better performance, the product has to have at least a hint of performance gain. These gains can come in the form of either more power or less weight, which is essentially the same thing.

So if you're new exhaust (for example) weighs 15-20lbs less than the stock one, the horse power to weight ratio has now changed and the car is subsequently faster (marginally).

However, in the real world I don't think you would ever really feel the difference of 15-20lbs or 8-10 horse power on a 3700lbs car with 414hp respectively.

Cheers!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by nullspace

For a 414 hp car, adding 8 hp is less than a 2% change. I don't think there's way someone could feel that - the performance of an individual car varies by more than 2% all the time: temperature fluctuations, surface conditions, etc.

Good post and +1, absolutely to the ^. I have posted so many times on this point, you can't feel 10 hp in a 3700 lb 400+ hp car. All of the above things are relevant as are:

-Fuel level
-Elevation
-Factory options (weight)
-Tire inflation
-Parcels or other items with weight in the car
-Natural output variations from the factory
-State of run in of the engine
-Various psychological effects:
a. "I spent money - it must be faster"
b. "It is louder - it feels faster - it must be faster"
c. "The ride quality is harsher - it feels racy - it must be cornering faster"

The list just goes on and on.

[wgf77]

What I have noticed is that my sedan is faster in 29 degree air in Chicago. The cold air makes it feel much stronger. So maybe move to a cold climate and enjoy the cold crisp drives to work! I was shocked how quickly it accelerated today.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by wgf77

What I have noticed is that my sedan is faster in 29 degree air in Chicago. The cold air makes it feel much stronger. So maybe move to a cold climate and enjoy the cold crisp drives to work! I was shocked how quickly it accelerated today.

Try Minnesota with a 4.2 liter V8, twin turbos, lots of intercoolers, and then throw 110 octane into the mix. It was like someone kicked me in the back after the ECU figured out it wasn't 93 octane any more. This was a real 50 hp / 50 lb-ft of torque from just changing the fuel. So here is one vote for being able to feel 50 hp.

BTW, PencilGeek, have you run any dyno pulls where you burn 100 octane Union 76? There's a station on Almaden Expressway that sells it. I wouldn't be surprised to see 15 hp from that in the S65.

[rzm3]

When consumers buy products, it's about the 'perceived value'. In other words, consumers do not rely solely on the intrinsic value of a product to make purchase decisions, rather, they judge based on a combination of intrinsic and extrinsic values.

Take condoms for example... to be honest, can girls really feel the difference between an ultra ribbed and a normal condom? No... so why do we buy them? Because it make us feel that we are providing our partners with greater pleasure... it inflates our ego

And in the case of 'performance mods', it's about the 'perceived performance'.

One good example would be the Aston Martin Vantage when it had the 4.3L engine. It has been noted by many journalists that when you drive an AM, it sounded like you are going at a million miles per hour with that glorious throaty exhaust, but when you look down on your dash you realize you are going at 41mph...

Reality does help sometimes to support or confirm one's good feeling, but most of the time, due to the amount of variations, there is no way to tell whether you've gained or lost 10hp. (which unfortunately gives some dishonest vendors a loophole)

In the end, whether it be your butt dyno or your hearing or your sight or just knowing that you have added a "performance mod", it's all about the feeling... whether it be "real" or just "psycological", for most folks it doesn't matter... it only needs to make them feel better...

just like in every drug trial some people in the placebo group always feel better... it all comes down to what our brains tell us...

[oneginee]

too many word written here on common sense. Boring.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Good post and +1, absolutely to the ^. I have posted so many times on this point, you can't feel 10 hp in a 3700 lb 400+ hp car. All of the above things are relevant as are:

-Fuel level
-Elevation
-Factory options (weight)
-Tire inflation
-Parcels or other items with weight in the car
-Natural output variations from the factory
-State of run in of the engine
-Various psychological effects:
a. "I spent money - it must be faster"
b. "It is louder - it feels faster - it must be faster"
c. "The ride quality is harsher - it feels racy - it must be cornering faster"

The list just goes on and on.

+1

exactly.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Good post and +1, absolutely to the ^. I have posted so many times on this point, you can't feel 10 hp in a 3700 lb 400+ hp car. All of the above things are relevant as are:

-Fuel level
-Elevation
-Factory options (weight)
-Tire inflation
-Parcels or other items with weight in the car
-Natural output variations from the factory
-State of run in of the engine
-Various psychological effects:
a. "I spent money - it must be faster"
b. "It is louder - it feels faster - it must be faster"
c. "The ride quality is harsher - it feels racy - it must be cornering faster"

The list just goes on and on.

Agreed on all points, and let me flesh out a couple of things out here.

First of all, noise seems to be a critical factor for most of us in terms of assessing rates of acceleration. As an example, there are literally millions of car enthusiasts out there who feel that their cars accelerate most rapidly at the power peak in any given gear. They feel this way partially because that's one of those "common knowledge" kinds of things passed down from father to son, etc.

However, the real reason they continue to feel this way is that the rising sturm and drang as you approach the power peak gives you a literally visceral sense that the car is accelerating harder than it did awhile back, at the torque peak in that gear. Of course, any car accelerates hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, but, speaking for myself, I have to use an accelerometer to give me the facts on this, as my senses betray me.

Therefore, intake and exhaust mods are almost guaranteed to please most drivers in regard to impressions of speed - myself included.

Our g-receptors are pretty lousy at assessing minor differences in rates of acceleration/deceleration, so noise levels are an easy substitute.

In regard to handling, the same insensitivity to minor g-level changes means we look to other things while assessing cornering capabilities, and in this case it's lean angles that affect us most dramatically. Even if the car is slower around a given corner, if it leans less, we're likely to think we're faster.

Bruce

[footie]

If you really want to experience the feeling of being quicker without actually being quicker then drive a manual M3 after the M-DCT car in S3. The kick/jerk you get with the manual gives puts out all the right signals of speed without actually being as quick.

[mkoesel]

I put my car on a Power of Suggestion dyno. It turns out that it suggests it has more like 430hp.

[NewM3driver]

"The kick/jerk you get with the manual gives puts out all the right signals of speed without actually being as quick."

Footy...

I'll go out on a limb and say that ALL the guys that opted for the MT would gladly trade one tenth of a second in acceleration for the peace of mind that we are not subject to the bullshit that goes hand in hand with owning a DCT. Same way you cant feel 10hp you can't feel on tenth of a second. If you do find yourself in a race with a MT, you had better hope it isn't the time your DTC decides to cough and stall as they are known to do.

Hell, in your post you admitted the manual felt better. In the "DID YOU MAKE A MISTAKE?" survey, close to 30% said they felt they made a mistake ordering DTC... 30%!!! Figure half of those that said they would buy it again just won't admit they made a mistake. The simple fact that such a survey even exists speaks volumes.

In fact, EVERY thread about DCT is a "woe is me" thread, moaning and groaning about the trials and tribulations of living with a $3000 mistake.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

"The kick/jerk you get with the manual gives puts out all the right signals of speed without actually being as quick."

Footy...

I'll go out on a limb and say that ALL the guys that opted for the MT would gladly trade one tenth of a second in acceleration for the peace of mind that we are not subject to the bullshit that goes hand in hand with owning a DCT. Same way you cant feel 10hp you can't feel on tenth of a second. If you do find yourself in a race with a MT, you had better hope it isn't the time your DTC decides to cough and stall as they are known to do.

Hell, in your post you admitted the manual felt better. In the "DID YOU MAKE A MISTAKE?" survey, close to 30% said they felt they made a mistake ordering DTC... 30%!!! Figure half of those that said they would buy it again just won't admit they made a mistake. The simple fact that such a survey even exists speaks volumes.

In fact, EVERY thread about DCT is a "woe is me" thread, moaning and groaning about the trials and tribulations of living with a $3000 mistake.

1. Let's not turn this into a MT vs M-DCT debate. We have all seen enough of that, much of which was reasonable debate but much bitter and attacking as well.

2. That being said I completely disagree with you contention. You do realize people with problems find forums and polls bring that out even more. Here is my contention based on a wide array of information including my knowledge of posts here, enthusiasts opinions, knowledge of folks who are not strong enthusiasts, my own ownership thoughts and even what all of what the rags have to say.

Most folks do not regret their choice. The M-DCT is a very fine automatic "subsutitute" and under conditions from being easy on it to beating on it pretty hard (in S3 and below) it is simply smooth as silk. It's advantages in terms of driver control and focus when driving aggressively is both obvious and substantial. Similarly when pushing at 10/10th on the track all reports indicate it is a brilliant unit (with the single software update). Very few folks have had significant problems with the M-DCT and those that have have been very well taken care of by BMW. Folks have given near universal praise for the single DCT software update to date. Last but not least there have been no reports of mechanical failures due to design flaws, abuse, etc.

All is quite well here in M-DCT land.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

1. Let's not turn this into a MT vs M-DCT debate. We have all seen enough of that, much of which was reasonable debate but much bitter and attacking as well.

+1 This thread is supposed to be about aftermarket products not transmissions.

[NewM3driver]

I drove the DCT several times before purchasing my MT M3. To be honest, I thought is was pretty cool but felt it would take a LOT of getting used to... as if someone told you we were now going to steer your car with a joy stick rather than a steering wheel. I could jump into the 6 speed and immediately feel at home.. in a very competent sports car.

I drove the new 997 both ways too, and walked away feeling the same way about the Porsche PDK.

How the car reacts at "10/10ths" is hypothetical, because 99.9% of M3's sold are daily drivers. As I said in my original response, the overwhelming number of negative DCT threads is a clear indication that all is certainly not well in M-DCT land. The fact that BMW now has a full blown recall on the DCT unit confirms that.

I certainly hope the update solves all problems. These are expensive cars, and everyone that buys one should enjoy it completely without disappointment.

[NewM3driver]

To SWAMP2

"This low speed, D mode lag absolutely is the key problem with the new software. I just took the shop foreman at my dealer for a ride to show him the issue. Each of you that is bothered by this fairly significant flaw should do the same. Elevate the issue to the level of the shop foreman, take them for a test drive and state you believe the issue to be one of safety. All such reports go directly to engineers at M in Germany (well not design engineers but support engineers). The message will be heard.

On the bright side I have confidence the issue will be fixed. Look at how good the first revision is over the OEM software. We also have the feedback from those "beating" on their M-DCT with this new software at the track that everything is "perfect". Many BMWs before have gone through multiple engine and transmission management software and the M3 will be the same." ---SWAMP2

Wondering how you could possibly write YESTERDAY that you were taking the shop foreman for a ride to point out the key problems with the NEW software, and then say TODAY...
"All is quite well here in M-DCT land."--- SWAMP2

Do you ENJOY repeated return trips to the dealer because of transmission problems with your $70,000 BMW?????