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01-22-2013, 11:17 AM | #23 |
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I would want to see the IAT. I suspect they were very high. An intercooled supercharged is the better choice for track use. Out of curiosity, are there any programs that would show you the improvement in lap time you should get on this track if you actually had another 100 rwhp?
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01-22-2013, 11:20 AM | #24 | |
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01-22-2013, 11:26 AM | #25 | |
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Confidence has nothing to do with it. I'm very comfortable with oversteer (as seen in my videos). I'm on the gas just as hard with or without the supercharger. I just don't feel much difference at all.
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01-22-2013, 11:30 AM | #26 | |
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01-22-2013, 11:33 AM | #27 |
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Awesome Data Radiant. Thank you for sharing. I'd be interested in seeing this data with a 575/585 kit. See if the intercooler helps at all at the track.
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01-22-2013, 11:34 AM | #28 | |
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01-22-2013, 11:37 AM | #29 | |
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B. When top speeds are higher everywhere and cornering speeds are lower, that comes down to driver, and possibly chassis set up with the additional power. The car is faster with the S/C. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that you can't drive by any means. Those are some good times for sure. But to say that a S/C car is not faster on track because you were now faster on track with a S/C isn't the right reasoning. |
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01-22-2013, 11:39 AM | #30 |
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Very interesting data and hats off to you Mark for taking the time and posting it! I was just asking several people about this the other day (i.e. heat soaking issues with non-intercooled SC).
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01-22-2013, 11:42 AM | #31 | |
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So maybe the big lesson here is mods won't necessarily make you faster (even ones you'd expect to really help). Becoming a better driver is the best mod you can do.
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01-22-2013, 12:46 PM | #32 | |
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Then you're going to accelerate more on the straights, requiring an earlier braking zone; again an HPDE type driver might over or under-brake causing corner speeds to be inconsistent and since the car has so much more power, the tendency might be to overbrake so you can get on the power earlier, whether you know you're doing it or not. Without adding grip, aero, or decreasing weight, adding power is a diminishing returns game... yes every little bit helps (to an extent) but adding more and more isn't always better and better. You guys sitting here saying his driving is the culprit are ignoring the obvious: 1:44 is a pretty good time for an HPDE driver at Laguna in an N/A M3. He added a part and then took it back off, and noticed not much change. But lastly, is anyone really surprised that a non-intercooled supercharger heatsoaked badly and didn't make a huge difference at the track? We aren't talking about 1/4 miles or 15 second airport runs here, where that type of setup would see its maximum potential. |
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01-22-2013, 01:23 PM | #33 | |
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Also, FWIW, I know there are a couple pro level drivers who frequent these boards and though I am a finance guy and not a pro racer , I was blessed with the opportunity to have driven with a pro team for a season when I was in undergrad. Testing requires a very consistent driver and optimally also includes software capable of attributing lap discrepancies to power, individual cornering speeds, etc. Mark is quite fast for having only done 16 track days and is taking the necessary steps to get faster including data analysis and performing the right steps to make the car consistent. Last edited by smmmurf; 01-22-2013 at 01:33 PM.. |
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01-22-2013, 03:01 PM | #34 |
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very interesting to see how the SC and NA compare on a track. i know that ess has already added more power to the 535 kit to make it 550. perhaps they made it more responsive with the new tune.
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01-22-2013, 03:13 PM | #35 |
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This happened to me before as well. My guess is that it is due to not covering exactly the same distance on each lap. If the distance to complete a lap is slightly less, you could complete that lap faster than a longer distance lap even with a lower average speed. Again, my guess.
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01-22-2013, 06:15 PM | #36 | |
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Your results aren't shocking at all. I personally would never do a non-intercooled kit if the intent is anything but daily driving in a cool temp climate. Once you start tracking, your IAT's will get so hot you are essentially back to stock power. What's the point? You just added 40 pounds to the front of your car? I don't know why you just didn't try a water/meth kit just to test it out (they are cheap) but it's your car.
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01-22-2013, 07:09 PM | #37 | |
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I don't get why people think I made a big mistake one way or another. If you read about superchargers on these forums all you hear is complete praise aside from the fact that you void your engine/power train warranty. I was well aware of potential heat soak of a non-intercooled kit at the track. I did my research. In fact, I stated before I even purchased the kit that I would be happy if I had more power on the street and stock power at the track. I want my car to run safely and that's exactly what it did. I got a good deal on the kit and put a good 10k miles with the supercharger on the car. I loved it on the street, but didn't care for it at the track. I learned a lot from the experience. Now I get to sell my kit to someone looking to give it a shot for a good deal as well. I'm 100% glad that I got to experience my car with a supercharger and I'm also 100% happy that it's off the car now. I'm not a fanboy and I'm not jumping on any bandwagons on this forum. I like experiencing and learning about things for myself.
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01-22-2013, 07:18 PM | #38 |
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Was the belt slipping? Do you log boost?
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01-22-2013, 07:27 PM | #39 |
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No and no. There's no issue with the kit. The car pulled insanely hard on the street. It was like night and day.
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01-22-2013, 07:41 PM | #40 |
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I have to admit that my experiences are very different. A little background, I have over 10,000 laps at my local track, where I was an instructor (which closed last summer ). I have done probably 600 laps in an NA M3 and probably 1100 laps in a SC E90 (575 and 625 kits) on this track. I never had any overheating issues, although our ambient temps way up North are lower than California.
I have been able to do much better laps with the SC. I saw appeciably higher speeds on both the front and back straight with front straight speeds increasing by 30kph on the front straight. The only place I saw any slower times was on the entry to the front straight that was a 2nd gear turn, so traction is an issue here with street tires. On r-compounds this was not a problem, so beyond requiring early braking points I didn't see any deterioration of lap times.
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01-22-2013, 07:48 PM | #41 | |
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01-22-2013, 07:54 PM | #42 | |
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More 2nd gear turns would likely bring the results much closer.
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01-22-2013, 08:10 PM | #43 | |
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Last edited by Gearhead999s; 01-22-2013 at 08:21 PM.. |
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01-22-2013, 08:18 PM | #44 | |
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Your data overlay is informative. While you achieved a slightly higher max speed at several points on the track with the supercharger setup, you consistently maintained higher speeds through the slow sections/corners with the naturally aspirated setup. Maybe this has to do with what you mentioned earlier--that throttle response feels more linear and easier to modulate with the NA setup--so it's easier to maintain momentum in those slow sections. The supercharger runs look more point-n-squirt in nature. (This is just my guess at interpreting your data. I'm by no means a pro, either, only having 25 or so track days under my belt.) Forum member arter is running an ESS 535 supercharger on his M3 and he frequents the track. Maybe he can offer some of his insights as well.
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