Need input from AA concerning forced induction

[mikewads]

Putting any kind of forced induction on a motor that already has a compression ratio of 12:1 makes me nervous.

Another forum member (PencilGeek) has already shown that just putting in 100 octane fuel picked up 36HP/35TQ which really surprised me. That's just not normal and makes me believe that the stock timing is... or can be very aggressive if the knock senors don't get in the way.

Using an intercooler helps make power and cuts down on detonation, but I would have to assume that you must have to remove a lot of timing for your new supercharger setup.

[ChitownM3]

Originally Posted by mikewads

Putting any kind of forced induction on a motor that already has a compression ratio of 12:1 makes me nervous.

Another forum member (PencilGeek) has already shown that just putting in 100 octane fuel picked up 36HP/35TQ which really surprised me. That's just not normal and makes me believe that the stock timing is... or can be very aggressive if the knock senors don't get in the way.

Using an intercooler helps make power and cuts down on detonation, but I would have to assume that you must have to remove a lot of timing for your new supercharger setup.

I didn't know AA had a supercharger setup... **edit** Just saw the other post.

[FStop7]

Back when I had an E46 I looked pretty hard for cases of people who trashed their motors with AA, VF, or ESS blowers. I don't think I ever found a single one.

[dvpouldar26]

In the e46 m3 days, people were nervous with the e46's 11.5:1 compression ratio too. I remember the first e46 m3 in the 11's was an AA supercharged m3 that was running nitrous. Everyone thought the motor was going to blow. There are always the skeptics. There is a member of m3forum with an e46 m3 that runs a 200 shot of nitrous. Everyone thought he was going to blow, but he put it on at 12,000 miles, and today the motor has 80,000 miles+ and is still running fine. People underestimated the s54 and were completely proven wrong when the HPF kits came out and they saw how stout the stock internals and block are. at moderate boost levels, the high compression ratio should be ok. Only time can tell once these supercharger kits come out that we can tell how much power these motors can handle, just like when people started putting 200 shots of nitrous on the m5's s85.

[Omar@ActiveAutowerke]

Quick writeup from our Engineering Director, Karl Hugh:

In the older days, higher compressions were acceptable in the performance world, but at a cost : You would have to run 100 octane fuel or close to 100 octane, your car would most likely fail all emissions standards due to excessive NOX emissions, to make it pass you would need huge EGR (exhaust gas recirculation ) , an air pump on your engine to help control CO,HC emissions, and even a 2 way catalytic converter, so lower compression ratios in the neighborhood of 8:1 was an accepted number to work with. Todays normal passenger cars are running 10:1 and higher for better fuel consumption,power and coupled with better engine management it is possible to have a late model car with more power and cleaner emissions , the motorsport industry as a result has released engines with even higher compressions for street use with natural aspiration and forced induction

The new S65 V8 M3 does have very high compression as seen from a "yesterday technology" when force inducing such compression ratios were considered irresponsible and suicidal, but with todays technology in combustion chamber design, superior materials to keep heat where it is needed and to take it away where it is not needed and superior engine management, it is possible to "have your cake and eat it too".

When Active Autowerke started to FI the S54 in the E46 M3 , we were immediately criticized by the majority as being irresponsible, and that the engine will surely grenade for a number of reasons, mainly because it was high compression. We did prove them wrong , today with over 250+ systems and a stellar record for a "proven properly working system" we have surely used that technology and the information that we have acquired to apply it to the new S65 V8 M3.

The new S65 V8 motor is a truly remarkable piece and with the state of the art Siemens MSS60 engine management system it makes a modern day tuner able to FI the motor if and only if they can get inside the DME code and re-tune it . The engine is equipped with Formula 1 technology to measure actual combustion by way of "negative ionization" to measure each cylinder individually, there are no knock sensors on the engine like the S54, and with 2 super fast processors in the DME that can perform over 2 million operations in 1 second ( faster than any PC you can get your hands on) ,it is possible to FI the motor with great results.

So for example on a E46M3 when a S54 starts to knock (detonate) and the Siemens MSS54 ( engine management for the S54 ) starts to adjust the ignition to prevent the knock from re-occurring, do not get me wrong the MSS54 is also very fast in processing power too, by comparison the newer MSS60 DME will already have measured the combustion in the engine and have corrected the ignition before knock can occur. This is the technology that makes it possible to FI a high compression motor that was considered impossible in the past.

Look at what BMW has done with the N54 engine in the 135i,335i etc. It is 10:1 compression with direct fuel injection and 8 psi of boost , running very close to stoichometric AFR's , this is possible with the technology that has been placed in the engine management system, again using negative ionization technology helps to make this possible.

We started this FI on the E36M3 over 14+ years ago when the 95 M3 came with 10.5:1 compression, we started off at 6 psi of boost and ended up close to 9 psi of boost on stock compression with 93 octane pump fuel, the engine management back then is noting compared to todays processing power of the newer DME's, but with careful tuning it was possible.

Bottom line: the technology is there, getting a hold of it and properly using it will allow us to "HAVE OUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO"

[J08M3]

Can't wait to see this kit finally completed. It's gonna be sweet

[FStop7]

that's a pretty great post from Karl, I wish we'd get more of those. There were a lot of things mentioned about the S65 that I've never heard of before, very informative.

[mikewads]

Thanks for the reply AA. I did not know the S65 did not use knock sensors. I look forward to seeing the final product.

[pepper]

the ferrari tuner novitec does superchargers on 12:1 compression and they seem to have no problems..

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke

Quick writeup from our Engineering Director, Karl Hugh:

Good stuff from Karl, AA deserves bigtime credit for what they have done with FI on BMW's, they were the pioneers with the S54 and to say they proved eveyone else wrong is an under statement, as they surely did with many many kits sold, no doubt and once again seem to be the first US tuner with a SC'r on the S65, kit looks great in the picture as well.

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke

The new S65 V8 motor.... is equipped with Formula 1 technology to measure actual combustion by way of "negative ionization" to measure each cylinder individually, there are no knock sensors on the engine like the S54....

One thing though, the S65 does have knock sensors, 8 of them, they are located in the coils.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_S65

"New lightweight spark coils with integrated knock sensors are fitted to each cylinder, bringing the total sensor count to eight compared with two on the V10. This allows more accurate detection of knocking with the added benefit that the eight sensors actually weigh less than the previous two sensor setup."

[Green-Eggs]

Technology does wonders, AA knows what they are doing

[Omar@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Good stuff from Karl, AA deserves bigtime credit for what they have done with FI on BMW's, they were the pioneers with the S54 and to say they proved eveyone else wrong is an under statement, as they surely did with many many kits sold, no doubt and once again seem to be the first US tuner with a SC'r on the S65, kit looks great in the picture as well.



One thing though, the S65 does have knock sensors, 8 of them, they are located in the coils.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_S65

"New lightweight spark coils with integrated knock sensors are fitted to each cylinder, bringing the total sensor count to eight compared with two on the V10. This allows more accurate detection of knocking with the added benefit that the eight sensors actually weigh less than the previous two sensor setup."

Reply from Karl:

he is correct that there are 8 sensors , one in each spark plug, but they are not knock sensors, they are called that in the wikipedia article maybe for an easier way to understanding the technology.These so called knock sensors are not really knock sensors because they are not bolted to the engine block but are part of the ignition coil that uses the spark plugs along with the coil to measure combustion ........the correct name of the technology is called negative ionization.