First close call - beware of M button in the wet

[OC3]

[BMW M Power Mexico]

Interesting thread. Chiming in:

1. Job #1 is to attend a few high performance driving courses to learn better car control, there is no shame in what happened to the OP, but do learn from it. We all start without knowledge of how to properly drive a powerful RWD car (or any car for that matter!).

2. I believe that with little to reasonable car control skills, MDM is fine on dry roads. It will let you have fun while still keeping a safety net.

3. In the rain MDM will increase the risk by intervening too late (as was the case here). But not only that, running the suspension in sport for wet roads doesn´t help at all, as the car is less compliant and you will get less roll as a warning of impending doom. Sport+ throttle is also unfortunate because it makes it easier to break traction.

4. Even after taking lots of courses and feeling pretty confident at the track, I never take DSC fully off on public roads. I think it increases the risk a lot. But I guess if you are really great at car control it would be ok. I´d rather not risk it.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico

Even after taking lots of courses and feeling pretty confident at the track, I never take DSC fully off on public roads. I think it increases the risk a lot. But I guess if you are really great at car control it would be ok. I´d rather not risk it.

I'm all for these gobshites running without DSC in the wet, they will be fine until they hit a bit of diesel on a bend or similar and go spearing off into the country side. A dose of Darwinism should make the roads safer for the rest of us.

[Krozi]

Originally Posted by OC3

I'm in favor of applying more throttle, lulz (seriously)

Haha you can either go with the spin and just steer into it so you spin out somewhat safely or let off the throttle so the front tires get a bit more traction and counter steer. If you don't know what your doing, counter steering could actually put you in a worse situation where you suddenly get front traction again and steer yourself off the road.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I'm all for these gobshites running without DSC in the wet, they will be fine until they hit a bit of diesel on a bend or similar and go spearing off into the country side. A dose of Darwinism should make the roads safer for the rest of us.

DSC won't help in that situation. Here's the biggest downfall of many who rely on DSC, they think it makes them invincible to sub-par road conditions.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by J08M3

DSC won't help in that situation. Here's the biggest downfall of many who rely on DSC, they think it makes them invincible to sub-par road conditions.

I know better than many that the M3's DSC isn't foolproof, however with the M3's excess of power over grip, especially in poor conditions, its a necessary evil and it does a fair job of keeping you on the black stuff unless you drive beyond your ability.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by Krozi

Haha you can either go with the spin and just steer into it so you spin out somewhat safely or let off the throttle so the front tires get a bit more traction and counter steer. If you don't know what your doing, counter steering could actually put you in a worse situation where you suddenly get front traction again and steer yourself off the road.

Yeah, stay on throttle and steer into the spin (counter-steer).

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I'm all for these gobshites running without DSC in the wet, they will be fine until they hit a bit of diesel on a bend or similar and go spearing off into the country side. A dose of Darwinism should make the roads safer for the rest of us.

Do you know where the fault in your theory is? You assume because you can't do it, it can't be done. Wrong. A question of experience and training. No more. Allow me to show you what the safest way is to solve the "hitting something unexpectedly" if I may (just to add a little practical note to all this theoretical bs):

Link to a short Youtube video... direct link won't work

Oh... and no DSC, sorry. It was an e36. Wouldn't have helped in the situation anyhow, as was mentioned before. If you need traction, because you're actually losing the rear end, use the clutch. Btw this is one of those situations where a DCT car would have had a big disadvantage.

Would I drive that fast on a public road in the rain? No. I would avoid the situation in the first place. How will you know when "fast" is "too fast"? You don't. You guess. You assume. And if you misjudge, you rely on electronics to save you. And you think that is the way to do it? Honestly?

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by EmmDrei

Would I drive that fast on a public road in the rain? No. I would avoid the situation in the first place. How will you know when "fast" is "too fast"? You don't. You guess. You assume. And if you misjudge, you rely on electronics to save you. And you think that is the way to do it? Honestly?

+1

This is the key. Avoidance is number one in almost all situations.

[Frozen Black]

Originally Posted by andret

Yeah mate it was me. Wow news really does travel fast in the small country town of Adelaide! Did anyone get a photo?

No, they only drove past.

How is your car? any damage?

[gthal]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I'm all for these gobshites running without DSC in the wet, they will be fine until they hit a bit of diesel on a bend or similar and go spearing off into the country side. A dose of Darwinism should make the roads safer for the rest of us.

Originally Posted by EmmDrei

Do you know where the fault in your theory is? You assume because you can't do it, it can't be done. Wrong. A question of experience and training. No more.

EmmDrei... I agree that a skilled driver can be very effective and safe. Not only in their driving skill but their judgement on when/where and how much it is safe to push the car. The problem is that most drivers, IMO, think they are more skilled than they are... THAT is dangerous. You may be an amazing driver but there are a lot of guys who aren't but don't know it. DSC saves them from themselves. You are also right in that experience and training can address this. The problem with that is that the VAST majority of M3 owners won't get this experience and training beyond a basic level.

DSC isn't intended to mask mistakes... it is intended to protect people from themselves. For a truly experienced and skilled driver, sure, turn it off. The problem is a lot of people aren't objective when it comes to judging their own abilities and that endangers themselves and others. For greater clarity... this comment is not directed at anyone in particular here. I'm sure there are lots of guys on this forum that can safely handle the M3 in most any weather condition without DSC on. I'm also sure there are lots of guys who own M3s that "think" they are one of those skilled drivers but aren't. Those are the guys that end up in a guard rail or running into a minivan carrying our kids

[dexx]

I can almost spin the car with DSC fully on. It's not magic, it's just a fall-back for when you run out of skill.

BTW wet and cold roads are a good time to get used to the dynamic handling properties of the car. Because if you lose it on hot dry tires you're going to end up with 2 M3's.

[m3keash]

Originally Posted by E=mc2

You should never drive with DSC off in public roads!

We did on my test drive. Part of the sell.

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by gthal

EmmDrei... I agree that a skilled driver can be very effective and safe. Not only in their driving skill but their judgement on when/where and how much it is safe to push the car. The problem is that most drivers, IMO, think they are more skilled than they are... THAT is dangerous. You may be an amazing driver but there are a lot of guys who aren't but don't know it. DSC saves them from themselves. You are also right in that experience and training can address this. The problem with that is that the VAST majority of M3 owners won't get this experience and training beyond a basic level.

DSC isn't intended to mask mistakes... it is intended to protect people from themselves. For a truly experienced and skilled driver, sure, turn it off. The problem is a lot of people aren't objective when it comes to judging their own abilities and that endangers themselves and others. For greater clarity... this comment is not directed at anyone in particular here. I'm sure there are lots of guys on this forum that can safely handle the M3 in most any weather condition without DSC on. I'm also sure there are lots of guys who own M3s that "think" they are one of those skilled drivers but aren't. Those are the guys that end up in a guard rail or running into a minivan carrying our kids

You adress very valid points there! If you ever get a chance to "dig deeper" and to find out where the big difference between your average driver-joe and a pro or a good amateur racer is, then you'll find one big difference: the racers can tell you exactly and very realistically what they can and can't do. Some people will take that as them being arrogant, they're not. That's the only way to race and to not get seriously hurt doing so. Know your limits. And yes, you are right, most street drivers tend to vastly overestimate theirs. Especially running cars that have limits way beyond those of the driver. And then you automatically end up at the point of the discussion we are at now... which is better? Should the unskilled driver receive a warning sign soon enough telling him to back off or should systems help him in exceeding his true limit? And that is in fact what these systems (also) do. Unfortunately. They allow drivers to reach speed levels they would otherwise kill themselves (and/or others) at and the systems make the driver feel "capable". Whereby that is far from being true. You can read it in some of the posts in this thread. There are actually drivers that are convinced that nothing can happen to them as long as they don't mess with the buttons. They don't even have a grasp of the very basic rules of the physics they're dealing with every day.

You are right, the enigineers surely never intended the assist systems to have this effect. Just as Nobel intended dynamite to be used for peaceful purposes. We know, that dynamite is part of every war and if we judge drivers around us, we see, that there are many that make capital mistakes, because their assistance systems save them and they don't even realize it. When I see idiots braking in corners... in the pre anti-locking-brake days, they would have just slid into the trees at some point... but even with the assist systems there will come a point when these fundamental mistakes will hurt them. And the really bad thing is... they don't know, they are doing something wrong.

I think our points of view are not far apart. I can live well with a driver that turns every assist system off as long as he can realistically judge his or her capabilities and stays within his limits. (On public roads it's always the drivers limit you stay within and never the limit of the car (for cars like the M3). Simply because the limit of the car is so far above what is sensible in public traffic.) AND as long as that driver takes the responsibility seriously that he has toward others, when he is driving his car. Just as much as an idiot scares me (even with DSC on) that has no idea how the hell a car really works and how much damage it can cause, even at seemingly low speeds.

To me it really all boils down to "training, training, training". And good drivers trainings are terrific fun on top of making you a better driver. Leave the more expensive rims off if need be and rather pay for a good driver training! The people you don't kill will thank you for it. And in the end it may be yourself and your familiy you're saving!

[andret]

Originally Posted by Frozen Black

No, they only drove past.

How is your car? any damage?

No damage amazingly. These cars are built tough.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by EmmDrei

Do you know where the fault in your theory is? You assume because you can't do it, it can't be done.

And your mistake is to assume that I can't.

[Ken37.73]

More like beware of andret in the wet ..........................

[andret]

Originally Posted by Ken37.73

More like beware of andret in the wet ..........................

... and the dry