AMS Magazine: Another Comparison, Another Victory - M3 ZCP vs. RS5, C63, B3

[sakimano]

I think footie just likes to argue...and this is a losing battle.

When I started reading the comparisons (as a double Audi owner), I was disappointed to see the RS5 was slower (marginally) than the m3 to 60 and 1/4 mile etc...but what was most disheartening was how it gets whomped when you hit triple digit figures. It's a full 1.0 to 1.5 seconds behind by around 200km/h (120mph).

Anyway, the reality is I don't really care. I don't ever drive my car at 10/10ths...hardly ever anyway. In the real world, the RS5 will be a plenty quick car, even if it is marginally slower at 10/10ths. Further, Audi has clearly not made a concerted effort to win the 10/10ths race. They could have gone the easy route with forced induction and boosted the RS5 to a win, but when you do the math, Audi hasn't set its sights on a performance win in the $70-80,000 sport coupe class...that's not a very profitable pursuit. They've instead produced a fantastic GT that sounds incredible, looks even better, and will win sales from the well heeled folks who will appreciate the aesthetics. The owners (like domobrown) who crave every last millisecond of acceleration performance aren't the target market for Audi here, so I don't think they're missing your business.

Instead...they have decided to eat BMW's lunch in the $45-$55,000 section where both manufacturers sell 10s of thousands of units per year, not a few thousand. In that price category, the new S4 3.0T (supercharged) is trouncing the 335 variants with alarming ease. That topic has been discussed here ad-nauseum, and if you really think BMW is 'winning' everywhere, you really ought to check the sales figures. They paint a very different story.

All around, both car companies are fantastic, make great products, and will push each other for years. The winners will be buyers who get products that are made better by the great competition.

[DASHOCKER]

How did I know Footie would be in this thread fighting tooth & nail for Audi?

The Audi RS5 is a beautiful machine! I must say that Audi is coming out with some fantastic products for enthusiasts & the masses alike.. I saw an orange Audi TTS & could not stop looking at it. Kudos to Audi in the looks department for sure.. Now as far as driver control, involvement & excitement, BMW continues to trump Audi, Lexus, Mercedes, Infiniti & the others..

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by DASHOCKER

Now as far as driver control, involvement & excitement, BMW continues to trump Audi, Lexus, Mercedes, Infiniti & the others..

just not sales growth...

[four-rings]

Originally Posted by sakimano

just not sales growth...

which primarly is what all of these car makers are going towards.. they dont care about the fan boys/girls on audi or bmw forums saying my cars fast then all yours. in the end its all about profit to them and what sells

[Boost Gomez]

If I wanted to reap the benefits of AWD versatility and handling, I would get a... oh wait.

[xxs65xx]

Originally Posted by Boost Gomez

If I wanted to reap the benefits of AWD versatility and handling, I would get a... oh wait.

[xxs65xx]

Originally Posted by sakimano

I think footie just likes to argue...and this is a losing battle.

When I started reading the comparisons (as a double Audi owner), I was disappointed to see the RS5 was slower (marginally) than the m3 to 60 and 1/4 mile etc...but what was most disheartening was how it gets whomped when you hit triple digit figures. It's a full 1.0 to 1.5 seconds behind by around 200km/h (120mph).

Anyway, the reality is I don't really care. I don't ever drive my car at 10/10ths...hardly ever anyway. In the real world, the RS5 will be a plenty quick car, even if it is marginally slower at 10/10ths. Further, Audi has clearly not made a concerted effort to win the 10/10ths race. They could have gone the easy route with forced induction and boosted the RS5 to a win, but when you do the math, Audi hasn't set its sights on a performance win in the $70-80,000 sport coupe class...that's not a very profitable pursuit. They've instead produced a fantastic GT that sounds incredible, looks even better, and will win sales from the well heeled folks who will appreciate the aesthetics. The owners (like domobrown) who crave every last millisecond of acceleration performance aren't the target market for Audi here, so I don't think they're missing your business.

Instead...they have decided to eat BMW's lunch in the $45-$55,000 section where both manufacturers sell 10s of thousands of units per year, not a few thousand. In that price category, the new S4 3.0T (supercharged) is trouncing the 335 variants with alarming ease. That topic has been discussed here ad-nauseum, and if you really think BMW is 'winning' everywhere, you really ought to check the sales figures. They paint a very different story.

All around, both car companies are fantastic, make great products, and will push each other for years. The winners will be buyers who get products that are made better by the great competition.

really? because I read a month ago that BMW had topped Audi sales...but it has been a month since I read it....do you have any proof?

[amgthis]

Originally Posted by sakimano

I think footie just likes to argue...and this is a losing battle.

When I started reading the comparisons (as a double Audi owner), I was disappointed to see the RS5 was slower (marginally) than the m3 to 60 and 1/4 mile etc...but what was most disheartening was how it gets whomped when you hit triple digit figures. It's a full 1.0 to 1.5 seconds behind by around 200km/h (120mph).

Anyway, the reality is I don't really care. I don't ever drive my car at 10/10ths...hardly ever anyway. In the real world, the RS5 will be a plenty quick car, even if it is marginally slower at 10/10ths. Further, Audi has clearly not made a concerted effort to win the 10/10ths race. They could have gone the easy route with forced induction and boosted the RS5 to a win, but when you do the math, Audi hasn't set its sights on a performance win in the $70-80,000 sport coupe class...that's not a very profitable pursuit. They've instead produced a fantastic GT that sounds incredible, looks even better, and will win sales from the well heeled folks who will appreciate the aesthetics. The owners (like domobrown) who crave every last millisecond of acceleration performance aren't the target market for Audi here, so I don't think they're missing your business.

Instead...they have decided to eat BMW's lunch in the $45-$55,000 section where both manufacturers sell 10s of thousands of units per year, not a few thousand. In that price category, the new S4 3.0T (supercharged) is trouncing the 335 variants with alarming ease. That topic has been discussed here ad-nauseum, and if you really think BMW is 'winning' everywhere, you really ought to check the sales figures. They paint a very different story.

All around, both car companies are fantastic, make great products, and will push each other for years. The winners will be buyers who get products that are made better by the great competition.

Oh yes, because Audi sells more B8 S4s than E90 335is. And adding FI to the 4.2 of the RS5 probably wouldn't change the outcome IMO because the way the car feels is what magazines say to be the letdown. But if the S5 is supposed to be the GT of the range, the RS5 is clearly aiming for something sportier, perhaps the M3..

[1BMW4fun]

I dont understand how the RS5 managed to come in 3rd (give Audi face for its new car?) With its new fancy AWD and engine, yet its barely faster than a C63 (0.2s) on this particular track (actually in this test at the same track it is slower, http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...Audi_RS_5.html). They should have put more power in the RS5 to compensate for its weight and AWD. On another note, that C63 is stupid fast in 0-200kph.

[Kyosho]

Originally Posted by four-rings

However, I don’t believe Audi (as some of you stated fell behind the ball with this car) they already have one "super car" v10 r8. Which if u look at every bmw model, most cannot even keep up with it.

They got it from a Lambo and threw it into the R8 of course we can't keep up with it.

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by brava09

IMO, it is more important to drive a car that is the best car in its class (I feel better...), rather than driving a car that comes always 2nd or 3rd in any comparo.

IMO, it's more important to drive the car you like the best rather than what is reported in car magazines.

Personally, I don't care about the numbers at all. For over 5 pages now, we're arguing over differences of 1/5th of a second in 0-100 and 8/10th of a second in 0-200 kph. Do you think people really base their decisions on such statistics?

I'd still take the RS5 because it has it all .. power, handling, looks, and exclusivity. It'll never see a day on the racetrack, but instead, it will be doing what it was meant to be--a great GT.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by four-rings

which primarly is what all of these car makers are going towards.. they dont care about the fan boys/girls on audi or bmw forums saying my cars fast then all yours. in the end its all about profit to them and what sells

Of course. But a $80k RS5 that can't outperform it's $65k competitor is going to be a tough sell. Also, those fan boys you talk about - well if you mean people on the forums - those are exactly the customers who Audi is trying to win over. Not evey customer participates in internet forums and discussions, no. But a great deal of customers do actually read up on what people are saying before they buy the car. Getting good reviews amongst the online communities is an important part of the business in this day and age.

The RS5 is definitely a great car, no doubt. But it would be a much easier sell (and get much more respect) if it came to the partly late, but wiped the floor with the competition. That didin't happen - and that's a fact that can't be overlooked.

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by xxs65xx

really? because I read a month ago that BMW had topped Audi sales...but it has been a month since I read it....do you have any proof?

Oh I'm sure BMW's sales are still edging Audi here in North America, especially if you look on a month to month basis...the numbers change constantly. Look at rolling 12 month numbers for the big picture. Around the world it is a different story in many markets. In any event, what I was referring to was sales growth. Audi was firmly in 3rd place behind BMW/Mercedes for the past 2 decades, but that doesn't look like it will stay that way. Interesting fact that Audi now sells more cars in China than it does in America.

Originally Posted by amgthis

Oh yes, because Audi sells more B8 S4s than E90 335is. And adding FI to the 4.2 of the RS5 probably wouldn't change the outcome IMO because the way the car feels is what magazines say to be the letdown. But if the S5 is supposed to be the GT of the range, the RS5 is clearly aiming for something sportier, perhaps the M3..

Again, its not like Audi didn't performance test the car before launching it. They knew where it would stack up to C63 and M3. Their goal has almost never been to be the fastest, or the cheapest. That's a losing battle as everyone knows, because there's always someone faster and there most certainly will be someone cheaper. Look at the R8...its not faster than the F430, the various price relevant 911 competitors or the sister car, the Audi developed Gallardo. Yet, it still does very well for other reasons that buyers really care about...not what forum junkies like us care about.

I think Audi wants to have Apple cache...that cool brand that people buy because of a design philosophy or an intangible quality that is attractive...not because of statistics. Personally I live in Canada, so the perfection of AWD is what drew me to the brand...otherwise I'd maybe drive an E90 M3 sedan but since my car is my DD I like having a quattro enabled Audi. Yes I know an M3 is fine with snow tires...I just don't like the compromise considering it snows here 4-5 months/year.

Originally Posted by 1BMW4fun

I dont understand how the RS5 managed to come in 3rd (give Audi face for its new car?) With its new fancy AWD and engine, yet its barely faster than a C63 (0.2s) on this particular track (actually in this test at the same track it is slower, http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...Audi_RS_5.html). They should have put more power in the RS5 to compensate for its weight and AWD. On another note, that C63 is stupid fast in 0-200kph.

Simple...it's a very subjective review. Maybe Audi doesn't advertise in C&D nearly as much as BMW and GM...and at the end of the day business is business. Motor Trend did the exact same comparo this month (I mean exact...same cover even) and their results were completely different to Car & Driver's. 100% different (as far as the subjective stuff and the ranking goes...the performance stuff was pretty similar.)

Originally Posted by Kyosho

They got it from a Lambo and threw it into the R8 of course we can't keep up with it.

Actually that entire Gallardo was developed by Audi and Lamborghini together. Audi bought Lambo and that was the first car that came out of the collaboration. Have a seat in my S4 and you'll see what I mean. Most of the interior of the G is lifted directly from many of the Audi sedans. From tip to tail, you'll find Audi parts.

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Of course. But a $80k RS5 that can't outperform it's $65k competitor is going to be a tough sell. Also, those fan boys you talk about - well if you mean people on the forums - those are exactly the customers who Audi is trying to win over. The RS5 is definitely a great car, no doubt. But it would be a much easier sell (and get much more respect) if it came to the partly late, but wiped the floor with the competition. That didin't happen - and that's a fact that can't be overlooked.

I have to disagree...while we, in our egocentric world, think Audi and BMW both hang on every word we the forum junkies type, reality is that 99% of the cars they sell are sold to folks (first owners) who don't know these forums exist. Further 99% will never be modified in any way by the first owner, and 99% of those first owners have little idea how their cars will stack up in a head to head hot-lap race against the competition. While this may be slightly different for the S/RS or M or AMG cars, it's not far off.

Look at the RS4...a very enthusiast oriented machine. Only 2500 were sold in North America...yet there are only about 50-100 owners on the forums, many of whom are second or third owners. I'd submit that of all of the 2500 original RS4 owners in North America, maybe 25-50 of them have set foot on a forum. Not sure what your thoughts on the M3 would be, but don't forget BMW sold 10s of thousands of E9X M3s. How many original owners of E9X cars do you really think post here or on various M3 forums? Remember...not the guys who bought them second or third hand. I'm talking about the guys who wrote the cheque on the original order.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by sakimano

I have to disagree...while we, in our egocentric world, think Audi and BMW both hang on every word we the forum junkies type, reality is that 99% of the cars they sell are sold to folks (first owners) who don't know these forums exist.

I think that's probably way off for a car like the RS5 and M3. M3 demographics are well known - most owners are young. While neither of us can prove the point one way or the other to claim that 99% of M3 or RS5 owners don't know forums exists sounds just preposterous. I suspect that a good chunk of purpose-built perfomance car owners - of any make or model - know exactly where to go online to read about their cars.

Look at the RS4...a very enthusiast oriented machine. Only 2500 were sold in North America...yet there are only about 50-100 owners on the forums, many of whom are second or third owners. I'd submit that of all of the 2500 original RS4 owners in North America, maybe 25-50 of them have set foot on a forum. Not sure what your thoughts on the M3 would be, but don't forget BMW sold 10s of thousands of E9X M3s.

I would obviously disagree heavily. The main grounds I would use for disagreement is that it is pretty well known, simply using web stats alone, that forum members are but a small percentage of forum visitors. You simply have no idea how many RS4 owners read online forums or other sites. You are basically making up numbers.

[Bunkei]

I find it interesting that the RS5 is getting crucified for not outperforming the M3 considering the higher pricetag, but the CTS-V did handedly, and for less money. Where's the accolades for that car?

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I think that's probably way off for a car like the RS5 and M3. M3 demographics are well known - most owners are young. While neither of us can prove the point one way or the other to claim that 99% of M3 or RS5 owners don't know forums exists sounds just preposterous. I suspect that a good chunk of purpose-built perfomance car owners - of any make or model - know exactly where to go online to read about their cars.



I would obviously disagree heavily. The main grounds I would use for disagreement is that it is pretty well known, simply using web stats alone, that forum members are but a small percentage of forum visitors. You simply have no idea how many RS4 owners read online forums or other sites. You are basically making up numbers.

very true. Making up numbers. I base them on various polls we've done on Audi forums. i.e. the formerly biggest Audi S4 (4.2) forum had a long running mileage poll, and we had a total of 260 replies. While there were certainly more than 260 members/lurkers on there who owned a B6/7 S4, there certainly weren't a huge number more. Considering Audi sold thousands and thousands of those cars here, the percentages are fractional.

Again, agree to disagree. I challenge you to stop any RS4 owner on the street and ask him what forum he posts on. Most of owners will look at you funny.

I suspect I'm closer to reality though than your impressions. Agree to disagree!

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I find it interesting that the RS5 is getting crucified for not outperforming the M3 considering the higher pricetag, but the CTS-V did handedly, and for less money. Where's the accolades for that car?

wasn't it ranked #1? It was in one of the reviews...either MT or CD.

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by sakimano

wasn't it ranked #1? It was in one of the reviews...either MT or CD.

Edmunds Inside Line I think, but I meant here on the forum. If people are going to crucify the RS5 for not being faster than the M3, then we should do the same to the M3 for being slower than the CTS-V.

Wait, people don't like the looks of the CTS-V Coupe? Meaning that there *are* other factors besides objective performance when purchasing a car?

(this wasn't directed at you Sakimano)

[jdgamble]

Originally Posted by amgthis

Oh yes, because Audi sells more B8 S4s than E90 335is. And adding FI to the 4.2 of the RS5 probably wouldn't change the outcome IMO because the way the car feels is what magazines say to be the letdown. But if the S5 is supposed to be the GT of the range, the RS5 is clearly aiming for something sportier, perhaps the M3..

The 335is was just released for 2011, and it's not available as a sedan (E90)... only coupe (E92).

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I find it interesting that the RS5 is getting crucified for not outperforming the M3 considering the higher pricetag, but the CTS-V did handedly, and for less money. Where's the accolades for that car?

On the CTS-V Forum

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by sakimano

very true. Making up numbers.

Yes.

Again, agree to disagree. I challenge you to stop any RS4 owner on the street and ask him what forum he posts on. Most of owners will look at you funny.

By the same token - if I say "Did you know they have the RS4 on the internet?", they'd look at me like I was not only funny, but a complete dunce as well.

I suspect I'm closer to reality though than your impressions. Agree to disagree!

And I think the marketing folks are thinking much more like me than you though. There's a reason why automobile viral campaigns and online ads are so prevalent. It's because they know that's where the customers are spending time - on the internet.

I wonder what SCOTT27 would think? What's he here for anyway?

[BMWPower06]

That's a BMW won, two