The best thing that ever happened to the M Division

[HotLap]

Originally Posted by rldzhao

Yes the GT-R can out-perform the M3 in all technical catagories, but where the M3 shines is the feeling of driving it. The perfect balance, connected steering, agile chassis, high-reving V8...

A car is not just about setting lap times, it's also about the fun of driving it.

Agreed, and dare I say it's mostly about the total driving pleasure for me, the sum of the car's parts/looks/sound/luxury merging together for an exquisite driving experience are what works for me...

[digivue]

Once GTR outperforms M3 its warranty is gone...

[ruff]

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

That post has no credited source. I haven't heard anything about a 3 series Tii. I kind of doubt BMW would make it since it would severely impede what little M3 sales are going on right now. I'm not saying they won't, but I'm not holding my breathe.

If you haven't heard anything about the tii you haven't been doing your BMW do dilligence. It's also in the latest Roundel as Tlud so kindly pointed out. I quoted part of what Roundel had to say. If you would of just read through the thread before commenting, you would have known this.

Old news really:

http://www.autospies.com/news/2009-BMW-335tii-29312/

[MomoM3]

Originally Posted by lugnut

Lastly the GTR. My local dealership here in NJ has a shiny new silver GTR Premium out front (chained off of course). I stopped in to ask about purchasing the thing, and was really bothered by the whole thing. I new that obviously I couldn't drive it, but I was shocked when I wasn't even allowed to sit in it to assess driving position. Nor would they open the door so I could at least see into the cabin (the side windows were completely obscured with window stickers). To add insult to injury at this point they told me that there was a $50k "market adjustment" on the car. So to recap: $127k for a Nissan. I walked away from my R8 because of a $20k market charge, and that was for a much nicer car (IMO).

I saw this car off of 22W this past weekend as well. That's CRAZY they want $127k for it. I mean, yes its's an awesome car, but not for a Nissan. If they beefed up the warranty on this car and deducted these rediculous "market adjustments" then I'd maybe pop in to the dealer to price one out...

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by ruff

If you haven't heard anything about the tii you haven't been doing your BMW do dilligence. It's also in the latest Roundel as Tlud so kindly pointed out. I quoted part of what Roundel had to say. If you would of just read through the thread before commenting, you would have known this.

Old news really:

http://www.autospies.com/news/2009-BMW-335tii-29312/

I've never been much of a roundel reader. x.x And I tend to rely on this forum to alert me when there is any significant BMW related news. So far, its all worked out just as planned! Guess I'll have to look into all this.

[UltimateBMW]

Here is the CAR magazine article.
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Se...models-are-go/

Sounds like the Tii is more of just a package now than a new model. But in the future it might become more.

[ersin]

I finally saw a GT-R IRL this past weekend at, of all places, in the church parking lot. It was red and looked very nice. I hate to say that I think it looks better than the M3. But the wing on the back is a little bit too big; it looks better in pics. Also, the whole car looks bigger IRL than in pictures, as has already been reported.

The sound of the exhaust is not bad. But the M3 sounds much better. Of course, this was only while it was just tooling around the lot. Maybe I'll get lucky enough to test drive one someday and see how it sounds inside.

My main problem with the GT-R is the dealers and service departments. I do not trust Nissan dealer servicing even for a Sentra, let alone a high end sports car. It seems you'll need lots of money for maintenance/repair on this thing and they're denying lots of warranty claims too. For those that have 'em, enjoy them and hope I it doesn't break on you.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by ruff

The M Division basically loped of two cylinders of the S85 to cut costs and time. It is also difficult to combine the latest version of DFI with high reving power plants, though Ferrari is now moving forward with it beginning with the California. Lambo just introduced it in the LP560-4 with excellent power to efficiency results.

Two examples for DFI cars:
LP 560-4 averaged 23,1 l/100km in the latest Sportauto Supertest (factory claim: 13.7l),
911 Carrera 4S w PDK averaged 17.0l/100km in the last Sportauto (factory claim: 10.5). So the advantage of DFI seems to diminish enormously when these cars are driven like they're meant to be.

Originally Posted by ruff

I suspect the S65 is being tweaked in DFI form as we speak.

Unfortunately not, mate. S65 is supposed to be history soon and replaced with a inline 6 (FI) in the next gen M3.


Best regards, south

[footie]

Originally Posted by southlight

Two examples for DFI cars:
LP 560-4 averaged 23,1 l/100km in the latest Sportauto Supertest (factory claim: 13.7l),
911 Carrera 4S w PDK averaged 17.0l/100km in the last Sportauto (factory claim: 10.5). So the advantage of DFI seems to diminish enormously when these cars are driven like they're meant to be.


Unfortunately not, mate. S65 is supposed to be history soon and replaced with a inline 6 (FI) in the next gen M3.


Best regards, south

DFI is similar to FSI? If so then I would save the improvements are very small indeed if my S5 was anything to go by.

If the next M3 is to get an inline 6 (FI), then what will Audi do with the RS4? I can't imagine them fitting either the current 4.2v8 or this engine with turbos, could it possibly have an improved version of the S4?

Well by the rate oil supplies are dropping the chances for another high-performance M/AMG or RS are getting smaller and smaller.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by southlight

Two examples for DFI cars:
LP 560-4 averaged 23,1 l/100km in the latest Sportauto Supertest (factory claim: 13.7l),
911 Carrera 4S w PDK averaged 17.0l/100km in the last Sportauto (factory claim: 10.5). So the advantage of DFI seems to diminish enormously when these cars are driven like they're meant to be.


Unfortunately not, mate. S65 is supposed to be history soon and replaced with a inline 6 (FI) in the next gen M3.


Best regards, south

South,

Thanks for the response and I mean that. I have always valued your insider's insight. I have missed not seeing you post as much as in the past.

As I had suspected from the get go, and I am now fully aware of, being on BMW's pay roll, makes it is your job to propagate the marketing line. It is now much easier to swallow your total agreement with every choice BMW has made and will make in the future. As you know, all cars "driven like they're are meant to be" such as at the track are going to have poor mileage. I am sure you have seen this video and if BMW were really smart, they would use it in their marketing campaigns.

The fact of the matter remains, the latest generation of DFI technology increases both power and efficiency, period, and you know that. I would just say this; in this day and age, if the M Division continues to stubbornly hold the line against DFI, then they are going to pay dearly for their bull headed thinking. I strongly suspect they are a bit too smart to be that stupid.

What is more concerning, at least from my stand point, is as you say, the next generation M3 is not going to be NA but instead take the easy route to FI. This is huge news everyone. Now I know why you changed your tune and now support FI over NA.

South, keep up the good work, your info is invaluable to the world BMW community. Do you have any new info on the tii variants? It would be greatly appreciated.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by footie

DFI is similar to FSI? If so then I would save the improvements are very small indeed if my S5 was anything to go by.

If the next M3 is to get an inline 6 (FI), then what will Audi do with the RS4? I can't imagine them fitting either the current 4.2v8 or this engine with turbos, could it possibly have an improved version of the S4?

Well by the rate oil supplies are dropping the chances for another high-performance M/AMG or RS are getting smaller and smaller.

At least gas prices are getting cheaper. Saw $2.69 premium last night.

[ruff]

Some big news just flew under the radar. For those newer members on this forum, South is an insider with very reliable information. He was kind enough to reveal that the high revving V8 jewel found in your new M3 is "suppose to be history soon and replaced with an inline 6 (FI) in the next gen M3."

This obviously has all kinds of implications. First of all, those who are lucky enough or maybe smart enough to own an E9x M3, particularly a 6 MT, without all the electronic doo dads, may have just purchased a future classic. I believe nav screens reduce the value of cars in the long term, simply for the fact that technology changes so rapidly, nav systems become dinosaurs within a number of years.

The current economic times remind me of the 70s. Remember the 70 and 71 Hemi powered Cudas. Talk about an asset that has made astronomical gains. I saw a stock, numbers matching one trade on E bay for around a million. The most important factors creating the Cudas astronomical increase in value, pertains to the desirability of owning the last and most powerful Hemi produced at the time, coupled with the fact that few were produced because of the oil crisis that caused American's to drastically switch their buying habits from performance to efficiency. Sound familiar?

My strong preference is that the S65 be tweaked and DFI implemented into its design. I think one could assume that such a motor could produce upwards of 440 hp and a mileage rating in the ballpark of 16/23, exactly what I thought the mileage of the current S65 would have been, given the BMW claimed 8% increase in efficiency over the S54. BMW also claimed DCT was more efficient. I haven't seen any mileage improvement on the window sticker of DCT equipped car yet, only a DCT price hike for 09.

No one loves BMW's buttery straight sixes more than me and I know BMW has the know how to produce fantastic I6s. I just hope it is a completely new engine and not an N54 derivative with larger turbos and higher boost. If they choose to go the with the I6, I would much prefer they go the NA route with DFI and maybe increase displacement of say 3.6 litres. Then focus on significant weight reduction. Now that would be an M, every driving enthusiast would love.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by ruff

Some big news just flew under the radar. For those newer members on this forum, South is an insider with very reliable information. He was kind enough to reveal that the high revving V8 jewel found in your new M3 is "suppose to be history soon and replaced with an inline 6 (FI) in the next gen M3."

This obviously has all kinds of implications. First of all, those who are lucky enough or maybe smart enough to own an E9x M3, particularly a 6 MT, without all the electronic doo dads, may have just purchased a future classic. I believe nav screens reduce the value of cars in the long term, simply for the fact that technology changes so rapidly, nav systems become dinosaurs within a number of years.

The current economic times remind me of the 70s. Remember the 70 and 71 Hemi powered Cudas. Talk about an asset that has made astronomical gains. I saw a stock, numbers matching one trade on E bay for around a million. The most important factors creating the Cudas astronomical increase in value, pertains to the desirability of owning the last and most powerful Hemi produced at the time, coupled with the fact that few were produced because of the oil crisis that caused American's to drastically switch their buying habits from performance to efficiency. Sound familiar?

My strong preference is that the S65 be tweaked and DFI implemented into its design. I think one could assume that such a motor could produce upwards of 440 hp and a mileage rating in the ballpark of 16/23, exactly what I thought the mileage of the current S65 would have been, given the BMW claimed 8% increase in efficiency over the S54. BMW also claimed DCT was more efficient. I haven't seen any mileage improvement on the window sticker of DCT equipped car yet, only a DCT price hike for 09.

No one loves BMW's buttery straight sixes more than me and I know BMW has the know how to produce fantastic I6s. I just hope it is a completely new engine and not an N54 derivative with larger turbos and higher boost. If they choose to go the with the I6, I would much prefer they go the NA route with DFI and maybe increase displacement of say 3.6 litres. Then focus on significant weight reduction. Now that would be an M, every driving enthusiast would love.

+1. Well said.

[JJM335]

Have a look at this article...if you haven't seen it already.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/art...-moms-revenge/

The point is that technology has transformed cars in the last few decades. Yes the GT-R is FAST, but so is the M3 (and many other cars) by any reasonable benchmark. What any of us drive comes down to choices in style, feel, and mostly budget I suspect. So to say that BMW or Porche or whomever has been asleep...I don't think so. The technologies in these machines is astounding. If we put half as much thought into solving the worlds problems as we do into designing sports cars...well the world would be different I think. That said I think the world is a better place because of sports cars. :-) So don't hate, enjoy the variety and wonder at the fruits of human ingenuity and labor.

Wow...I just noticed how old this tread is. Oh well, nothing like a good read on a rainy day off. :-)

[s420merc]

I looked at the GTR and i can get one at MSRP. But even with me putting off any car purchase till the 3rd quater of 2009 i will likely not buy the GTR.
I drove it and it rides really bad very stiff unforgiving suspension. The Trans is the weak point. If u read some of the forums u will see that if u use the LC u void your warranty. Also the service costs are rediculous at those costs i would rather get another F360. i dont think its worth the money. The M3 is the perfect blend of comfort and perfomance. So i hope to order a MY 2010 E90 in either LeMans Blue or SS with Fox red interior and DCT and 19 inch rims.

[Mischievous M]

I choked on my morning cereal reading this post.... Its quite enteretaining BUT I reckon Ruff, you forgot to take in to account that the GTR is a V6 Twin Turbo... I would hate it if the current ///M had a turbo, not sure about others though!

Although I wouldnt mind a super charger. hehe

Happy New Year

[ruff]

Originally Posted by Mischievous M

I choked on my morning cereal reading this post.... Its quite enteretaining BUT I reckon Ruff, you forgot to take in to account that the GTR is a V6 Twin Turbo... I would hate it if the current ///M had a turbo, not sure about others though!

Although I wouldnt mind a super charger. hehe

Happy New Year

You are mischievous Mr. Mischievous. It took your lovely satire and dredging up the past to get me back on the chain gang, at least for a minute or twelve. I even posted on e90 forum my praises of the best LSD on the market built by BMW and panned BMW's marketing propaganda of the e differential for our friends with 335s. Our friends need a mechanical differential badly, not an electronic marketing gimmick.

The GTR has a V6 Turbo, really? Thanks for the heads up. I must of missed that.

The M division simply needs to continue with the S65, which was a home run, and turn it into a grand slam with the addition of DFI. If porsche can make the full transition, so can BMW, and the M Division can do it better, if they would simply get back to focussing on drivetrains rather than non essential bug ridden driving gimmicks.

How about my Utes.

[aaron_c]

(this may have all been said, I didn't check every page, but here's my 2c)

Are M3 transmissions grenading like GT-R's? The GTR trannies are letting go after 3-5 hard launches, and guess what, Nissan, isn't covering it under warranty. Do you think BMW does that, or do you think BMW would give you a launch system that destroys your car? Nah- I doubt it. The GTR's interior, while cool, also can't compare to the M3's. The GTR's ride also probably can't compare to the M3's, though that's speculation for me.

EDIT: http://my350z.com/forum/2009-nissan-...n-failure.html

[graider]

I don't understand the complain about lack of torque. I mean if you want to go fast, just downshift and rev that bish. I mean downshift and high reving give you a great sensation, so why not just do that? If you are in a car with so much torque, the drive will be pretty boring because you don't really need to do much except smashing the gas pedal.

about the OP, I think what he means is bmw can do better than what they are offering right now. Such as add regenerate braking to aid fuel consumption. I recalled reading somewhere that generate braking can improve fuel consumption up to 15% and bmw offered it somewhere in europe. So why not add that feature to US m car? I agree about brake too. Why not include bbk in m car. All other manufacturers do such as isf, c63 amg, etc.

[MJC///M3]

Originally Posted by ruff

The M division simply needs to continue with the S65, which was a home run, and turn it into a grand slam with the addition of DFI. If porsche can make the full transition, so can BMW, and the M Division can do it better, if they would simply get back to focussing on drivetrains rather than non essential bug ridden driving gimmicks.

How about my Utes.

Well said! Def think M engineers can take it to the extremes with DFI in their engines.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by aaron_c

(this may have all been said, I didn't check every page, but here's my 2c)

Are M3 transmissions grenading like GT-R's? The GTR trannies are letting go after 3-5 hard launches, and guess what, Nissan, isn't covering it under warranty. Do you think BMW does that, or do you think BMW would give you a launch system that destroys your car? Nah- I doubt it. The GTR's interior, while cool, also can't compare to the M3's. The GTR's ride also probably can't compare to the M3's, though that's speculation for me.

EDIT: http://my350z.com/forum/2009-nissan-...n-failure.html

Since its been out, the only real problems I've read about intermittenly over the last year with the DCT transmission are it stalling at intersections (fixed with updated software) and it refusing to downshift when under hard braking. (Also fixed I believe in the same software update, not positive though.)

[graider]

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

Since its been out, the only real problems I've read about intermittenly over the last year with the DCT transmission are it stalling at intersections (fixed with updated software) and it refusing to downshift when under hard braking. (Also fixed I believe in the same software update, not positive though.)

^^I don't know man. From a safety stand point, I rather have a transmission that break due to hard abuse (driver fault really) than one that stall. stalling sound a bit silly consider you guys pay a premium for this car and this can potentially kill you during highway entries, passing, 120mph on highway, etc.