Audi-The next BMW?

[adc]

Originally Posted by footie

The log lights are part of the round light switch on the dash, once the lights are turned on you pull the level out to turn on the log lights, front and rear.(...)This system has been on the go for ages, all VAG cars seem to use it.

Not really, no - my 1998 A4 had the old style Audi headlight stalk, the small one between the steering wheel and turn signal stalk.

I think the rotary headlight switch was universally adopted on the Audi range around the 99.5 model year (or perhaps as late as 2000).

[Icedog_16]

Originally Posted by adc

Not really, no - my 1998 A4 had the old style Audi headlight stalk, the small one between the steering wheel and turn signal stalk.

I think the rotary headlight switch was universally adopted on the Audi range around the 99.5 model year (or perhaps as late as 2000).

Weird, even a '95 Jetta GLX I had had the same rotary headlight switch like that.

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

For those saying that they are engineered differently,

Would you say the Audi could be compared to a Mercedes?

[iheartsole]

BMW anyday. its not about quanity , but quality!

[slipknot]

fuck audi....assholes , always and will be a class below bmw

[footie]

Originally Posted by adc

Not really, no - my 1998 A4 had the old style Audi headlight stalk, the small one between the steering wheel and turn signal stalk.

I think the rotary headlight switch was universally adopted on the Audi range around the 99.5 model year (or perhaps as late as 2000).

Sorry I was thinking of most people having more modern Audis. Over here there is not too many on these types of web sites with 10 year cars.

By the way, how is the old girl performing, in problems I hope.

[footie]

Originally Posted by slipknot

fuck audi....assholes , always and will be a class below bmw

Very immature discussion there.

A little narrow minded don't you think. Maybe previously, say 5~6 years ago I would have said that Audi were of a class below Mercedes and BMW but not now, if anything I would say there is lots of things were Audi supersede both of them.

The area were BMW still hold a trump card is involvement, but both Audi and Mercedes are making inroads into there advantage and to a point were the difference doesn't out weigh the benefits of the other two brands. The M3 is still the best in it's class but the rest of the range is having a much harder time of it against the C-classes and A4s, in fact take the M3 out of the argument and the rest of the M range is not really that great, the M5 is neither the perfect sportscar or the best luxury saloon, the M6 has all the speed but has little handling finesse to compete with it's rivals and the Z4Ms are a joke on anything other an a perfectly smooth race track.

If anything I feel BMW have taken their eye off the ball and allowed the others to get a foot hold in an area BMW could have rightly called their own for the best part of 15 years.

[adc]

Originally Posted by footie

Sorry I was thinking of most people having more modern Audis. Over here there is not too many on these types of web sites with 10 year cars.

yeah - when I signed on, Audiworld was called A4.org.

By the way, how is the old girl performing, in problems I hope.

Actually, sold it a few years ago to make room for the X3.

The 1st generation A4 was IMO a much better car by comparison any of than the later generations. For one, it was light - around 3100-3200 lbs in 4cyl Quattro form. Given how easily it could be modified, it could show off a stock E36 M3 at the track (guess how I found out). It was also more communicative on the edge than the later models IMO - taking a corner at full tilt, the steering would weigh up usefully and become more communicative and you could still make corrections with it - and if you had the power, with the throttle as well.

Back in 1998, it was an amazing bargain, had an elegant exterior, an incredible interior and a degree of thoughtful engineering built-in that few other cars had, at any price point. When I bought my M3, it was such a crude device compared to the Audi in many respects (but more fun, of course).

Finally, to answer your question, it had been more reliable than any BMW I've had so far. And due to various factors it kept its value remarkably well (bought for $25.5k, sold for $10k after 7 years).


The current A4 is simply too big, too heavy and way too expensive to matter to me. I looked up the A4 3.2 Quattro and it weighs 3800 lbs!!! I think they are pricing themselves out of the market, a 4 cylinder tops out at $40k and the V6 at $47k, while not truly offering any significant advantage over the corresponding BMW.

The only Audis I'd consider are the R8 (too conspicuous though) and the RS4 (too expensive though, I'd much rather have an M3 for $10k less).

[stickypaws]

One has to admit, Audi has come a long way from what they were in the 1980s. They deserve that credit whether or not one personally dislikes their product.

[purplewidow]

well in the performance/mpg rating they have a HUGE gap..
the 335 get's around 25mpg combined in road and track testing compared to 16mpg for the s5. plus audi's do break quite a bit more.

if you drive the 2 there is no comparison in the quality of the bmw's drive compared to the s5 which definitely felt front heavy hence numb steering feel. audi still needs to learn how to build cars without using cheaper vw parts and understand how important a near 50/50 weight distribution is. i was shocked it could go through a slalom as fast as it does b/c it definitely didn't feel as stable as a 335 let alone an m3. and there are still many many more bmw's out there then audi.. but the are getting closer. bmw will spice things up accordingly for the next batch of 3's starting with the new 3 sedan but we are a few years away from that.. in the meantime our mpg difference is 10 mpg with near same performance between the s5 and 335. that right there says audi is behind!! and the s5 isn't meant to compete with the m3 the rs4 and soon rs5 will. hell the 335 is faster stock than an audi s6.and that has a v10. if anything when you look at the power output and mpg consistently you will see the bmw ahead and sometimes in the 335 and s5 way ahead!!
________
corolla spacio
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DairyQueenX

[blue-coupe]

Originally Posted by footie

Like yourself I too have owned a TT, who hasn't when you are young but I have also owned the S5. Now no disrespect to you or your 335i, it's a great car with bags of performance and handling for what is a modest outlay, but I can't compare it to the S5. Sure to two are pretty evenly matched performance wise but on every other level the S5 has it comfortable beaten.

The S5 is the equivalent to the M3 but without the mighty performance. It's got it's aggressive looks, the racier interior and the beefy V8 throb, in essence it's got more in common with the M3 than it's baby brother.

BMW need to spice up their range to compete with Audi, in a way they have been looking to closely in their mirrors at what Mercedes are doing that they clean missed Audi pulling along side ready for an overtaking manoeuvre.

The S5 lines up well with the 335, the RS5 will match the M3.

No one would say the S5 or the 335 is an actual sports car, GT at best. Now the RS5 & M3, those are at least 'sporty' cars.

BTW, it's insane what it takes to be a sports car nowadays.

[footie]

Originally Posted by purplewidow

well in the performance/mpg rating they have a HUGE gap..
the 335 get's around 25mpg combined in road and track testing compared to 16mpg for the s5. plus audi's do break quite a bit more.

if you drive the 2 there is no comparison in the quality of the bmw's drive compared to the s5 which definitely felt front heavy hence numb steering feel. audi still needs to learn how to build cars without using cheaper vw parts and understand how important a near 50/50 weight distribution is. i was shocked it could go through a slalom as fast as it does b/c it definitely didn't feel as stable as a 335 let alone an m3. and there are still many many more bmw's out there then audi.. but the are getting closer. bmw will spice things up accordingly for the next batch of 3's starting with the new 3 sedan but we are a few years away from that.. in the meantime our mpg difference is 10 mpg with near same performance between the s5 and 335. that right there says audi is behind!! and the s5 isn't meant to compete with the m3 the rs4 and soon rs5 will. hell the 335 is faster stock than an audi s6.and that has a v10. if anything when you look at the power output and mpg consistently you will see the bmw ahead and sometimes in the 335 and s5 way ahead!!

Can I ask you something, is the 335i as quick as a 550i, that too is a very large capacity 4.8L engine which gups gas almost as bad as either the S5 or S6. Audi chose the v8 engine for the S5 not so much for performance but for how it makes to car feel. The 3.0Bi-turbo in the 335i is a good engine, a great one in fact but it's got not passion or character apart from it's performance.

OK you dislike the way the S5 feels, I agree the steering is a little numb but it's grip and cornering ability is without question. It will both out handle and out grip the 335i on any road track and I know for sure that given a day's training in one you will push the S5 harder into and out of any corner than you could with your 335i.

Best forget the S5 as a true rival to the 335i, it's been aimed between it and the M3, in a no-man's land. Best look at the S4 when it comes out to see how it stacks up to the 335i, it will have similar power and torque, similar economy and will even out handle the S5. I'm guessing they will find to harder to chose an outright winner.

[DirtBag335]

The thing that ruins Audi for me is their weight, not to say BMW's aren't getting heavy. It's just that whenever i drive and Audi I can't get over how heavy they feel. Maybe when I get older I will like them more, they do have AMAZING interiors. Oh one more thing I have had a lot of audi's in my family, 4 in just the past 4 years.

[adc]

Originally Posted by footie

OK you dislike the way the S5 feels, I agree the steering is a little numb but it's grip and cornering ability is without question. It will both out handle and out grip the 335i on any road track

That, I seriously doubt. What would be the reason for it? Suspension is just as soft if not softer than the 335i, contact patch vs. weight is similar, suspension design not superior in any way. Tires? Perhaps a tad better but not a sufficient difference IMO.

In fact in the only direct track comparison I'm aware of, performed by Fifth Gear (Vicky Henderson driver), the 335i slightly edged the S5 on a road circuit, by a nose. They had, for all intents and purposes, equal track times - but the 335 felt a lot better, more fun.


Compared to the S5, the S5 plays much more of a luxurious GT role than the 335i. It is more opulent, imposing and rare. But that's it.

[Staszek]

Originally Posted by footie

OK you dislike the way the S5 feels, I agree the steering is a little numb but it's grip and cornering ability is without question. It will both out handle and out grip the 335i on any road track and I know for sure that given a day's training in one you will push the S5 harder into and out of any corner than you could with your 335i.

I agree with some of the things you have said except this part.

Here are a few ring times, which really is to the S5's advantage with higher HP.

Here are some ring times

8:05 BMW E92 M3
8:22 BMW E46 M3
8:24 Audi S5
8:26 BMW 335i

Thats pretty close on a shorter track where the Audi cant stretch its legs I have seen the 335 equal or faster.

So I am not sure how you can say that the S5 will out handle it easily.

[footie]

Originally Posted by adc

That, I seriously doubt. What would be the reason for it? Suspension is just as soft if not softer than the 335i, contact patch vs. weight is similar, suspension design not superior in any way. Tires? Perhaps a tad better but not a sufficient difference IMO.

In fact in the only direct track comparison I'm aware of, performed by Fifth Gear (Vicky Henderson driver), the 335i slightly edged the S5 on a road circuit, by a nose. They had, for all intents and purposes, equal track times - but the 335 felt a lot better, more fun.


Compared to the S5, the S5 plays much more of a luxurious GT role than the 335i. It is more opulent, imposing and rare. But that's it.

You are arguing that all other things are equal between them, tyre size, weight and suspension but are forgetting the one thing which give the grip advantage to the S5 and that is Quattro. Yes they will understeer when pushed too hard but the fact is they can still go harder when you are understeering than when oversteering.

Yes Fifthgear's test was fun to watch but couldn't be classed as an accurate assessment of their abilities. SportAuto tested both and found the S5 to be over a second quicker on the Hochenheim GP course, not the 0.06s that Fifthgear got.

Yes it's a big GT but to me I see the 335i as a luxury car and less of a sportscar.

Originally Posted by Staszek

Here are a few ring times, which really is to the S5's advantage with higher HP.

So I am not sure how you can say that the S5 will out handle it easily.

We all know that the power advantage the S5 has is a lot smaller than the quoted figures for both cars, the 335i's true figures will be closer to 330hp and not the 306hp BMW say.

In the hands of professionals the cars will be hard to separate but in the hands of someone more normal with average driving abilities then Quattro makes more sense and gives added confidence that the 335i can't give. Everyone here believes they are brilliant drives but the truth is nowhere near that belief, most are very average at best and awd or fwd is much, much easier to drive quickly than rwd will ever be.

[Year's_End]

Oversteer > understeer.

Who's going for that extra tenth of a second at the track anyways? Might as well have more fun doing it, unless you're trying to prove yourself to someone through uber lap times.

[Icedog_16]

Originally Posted by footie

You are arguing that all other things are equal between them, tyre size, weight and suspension but are forgetting the one thing which give the grip advantage to the S5 and that is Quattro. Yes they will understeer when pushed too hard but the fact is they can still go harder when you are understeering than when oversteering.

Yes Fifthgear's test was fun to watch but couldn't be classed as an accurate assessment of their abilities. SportAuto tested both and found the S5 to be over a second quicker on the Hochenheim GP course, not the 0.06s that Fifthgear got.

Yes it's a big GT but to me I see the 335i as a luxury car and less of a sportscar.



We all know that the power advantage the S5 has is a lot smaller than the quoted figures for both cars, the 335i's true figures will be closer to 330hp and not the 306hp BMW say.

In the hands of professionals the cars will be hard to separate but in the hands of someone more normal with average driving abilities then Quattro makes more sense and gives added confidence that the 335i can't give. Everyone here believes they are brilliant drives but the truth is nowhere near that belief, most are very average at best and awd or fwd is much, much easier to drive quickly than rwd will ever be.

As before, I can't disagree with you. I've had both makes and what you say is pretty accurate, IMO. And no offense to the poster of the comment, but the 335i is not a sports (even sporty, maybe) car; it's no less GT than the S5 at that rate. Having had a Lotus Elise (a sports car), I can say that the 335i's handling leaves me somewhat flaccid (waaaaay too much body roll); but, it's good for the duty it serves.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Oversteer > understeer.

Who's going for that extra tenth of a second at the track anyways? Might as well have more fun doing it, unless you're trying to prove yourself to someone through uber lap times.

I agree, fun should be number one among amatures but I believe too many here are arm chair racers who value the figures above all else.

Hack with any of these cars a better driver will always end up victorious, it's really up to you which you prefer to own. Me I picked the S5 over the 335i at that time because I felt it was more special to drive with it's engine throb and aggressive looks. The mileage and cost was worth it for me, someone else might feel different.

[Staszek]

Originally Posted by footie

You are arguing that all other things are equal between them, tyre size, weight and suspension but are forgetting the one thing which give the grip advantage to the S5 and that is Quattro. Yes they will understeer when pushed too hard but the fact is they can still go harder when you are understeering than when oversteering.

Yes Fifthgear's test was fun to watch but couldn't be classed as an accurate assessment of their abilities. SportAuto tested both and found the S5 to be over a second quicker on the Hochenheim GP course, not the 0.06s that Fifthgear got.

Yes it's a big GT but to me I see the 335i as a luxury car and less of a sportscar.



We all know that the power advantage the S5 has is a lot smaller than the quoted figures for both cars, the 335i's true figures will be closer to 330hp and not the 306hp BMW say.

In the hands of professionals the cars will be hard to separate but in the hands of someone more normal with average driving abilities then Quattro makes more sense and gives added confidence that the 335i can't give. Everyone here believes they are brilliant drives but the truth is nowhere near that belief, most are very average at best and awd or fwd is much, much easier to drive quickly than rwd will ever be.

I understand where you are coming from, I am talking all out professional drivers.

As for non professional drivers I can only comment on my personal experience at the track, while I do have fun in AWD I am faster around a track with RWD (E36 M3 vs WRX sti only back to back experience I have), I have never driven FWD on a track so I cant comment except for the fact that I cant STAND FWD.

I make no claim to be a pro driver, but I am more experienced then the average guy with track time as well as time behind the wheel at the M driving school, I hope to be attending the advanced M school within the next year.

Anyway back to my point, the S5 is definitely very comparable to the 335, its not even in the same class as the M3 with almost 20 second difference in times

At the same time I really like the S5 alot and it was on my list at one time. Now I am just going to get an M3.

Well I will once the market corrects a bit lol

[footie]

On a track is not where Quattro or any awd system will show it's advantage over rwd, that place is on the public road where there are too many unforseen dangers that have to be taken into account. Few drivers on this or any forum will disengage DSC on the road in their M3 or 335i but in a quattro car there isn't the same danger of something going wrong.

When you don't happen the option of ideal lines, that is the place where awd shines.

Quattro/AWD = Less entertainment but is quicker on public road.
RWD = Far more entertaining but ultimately not as quicker.

P.S.
The new M3 is probably the best balanced rwd car out there for normal use, it's nose grips extremely well in all corners and as long as you aren't too aggressive with the throttle it can carry some serious speed through corners.

[ZJP]

This is what an Audi salesman told my friend last week.

Audi sells approximately 90,000 cars vs. BMW's 745,000 cars per year.