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      11-23-2008, 10:24 PM   #1
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BMW Performance Accesories - carbon ceramic brakes coming?

Check out this teaser video BMW released:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/owners/acc...e_3/start.html

Seems to me those are carbon ceramic brakes on the car. If they are going to have them for the regular 3 series, I am sure we will have them available for the M3 soon.

Thought it was interesting.

* EDIT * : Seems BMW took down the orignal video, looking for a mirror.

Mirror:

Last edited by Sticky; 11-23-2008 at 11:16 PM..
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      11-23-2008, 10:59 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Check out this teaser video BMW released:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/owners/acc...e_3/start.html

Seems to me those are carbon ceramic brakes on the car. If they are going to have them for the regular 3 series, I am sure we will have them available for the M3 soon.

Thought it was interesting.
I don't think they are, there just a performance brake kit that is available and has been for a couple months now here in Australia!
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      11-23-2008, 11:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watrob View Post
I don't think they are, there just a performance brake kit that is available and has been for a couple months now here in Australia!
I paused it and zoomed in to take a closer look, it looks like a carbon ceramic rotor under the light. I guess maybe it isn't, oh well, still nice to speculate.
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      11-23-2008, 11:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
I paused it and zoomed in to take a closer look, it looks like a carbon ceramic rotor under the light. I guess maybe it isn't, oh well, still nice to speculate.

I would be just happy to get any sort of brake option for the M3!
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      11-23-2008, 11:36 PM   #5
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      11-23-2008, 11:45 PM   #6
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Nope they look like normal upgraded brakes.

Go to the following link and scroll down and click on 'Braking System': http://www.bmw.com/com/en/owners/acc....html?cat=1008

Heres the text from that link:
"Braking system*
The BMW Performance braking system is designed to facilitate a sporty driving style. The six-piston aluminium fixed callipers and grooved, cross-drilled discs give drivers an incredible amount of control, even in the wet, while their low weight reduces the unsprung mass of the car. Calipers painted in BMW Performance Yellow are a striking visual feature. For detailed information please contact your BMW partner."
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      11-23-2008, 11:51 PM   #7
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That car looks/sounds amazing! Can't wait to see what they come up with for the M3! Good game BMW! Well done!

EDIT: The seats were swapped out for race seats. Can we say weight reduction? BMW may not be making the CSL, but it seems like they are at least making the parts that would have been used in it available. I'd venture to guess that those seats would reduce at least 75lbs. The brakes and wheels might reduce weight too and that's not considering all the carbon fiber pieces that are shown. Something over 100lbs of weight reduction seems likely with the performance parts. Very cool!

Last edited by jworms; 11-24-2008 at 12:13 AM..
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      11-24-2008, 12:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saif View Post
Nope they look like normal upgraded brakes.

Go to the following link and scroll down and click on 'Braking System': http://www.bmw.com/com/en/owners/acc....html?cat=1008

Heres the text from that link:
"Braking system*
The BMW Performance braking system is designed to facilitate a sporty driving style. The six-piston aluminium fixed callipers and grooved, cross-drilled discs give drivers an incredible amount of control, even in the wet, while their low weight reduces the unsprung mass of the car. Calipers painted in BMW Performance Yellow are a striking visual feature. For detailed information please contact your BMW partner."
Yep, looks like the regular brakes.

Here is to hoping we see carbon ceramics from BMW performance.
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      11-24-2008, 12:26 AM   #9
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here is more info ... not expensive upgrade !

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...catalogid=4462
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      11-24-2008, 12:48 AM   #10
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i think these performance brakes have been discussed before and the verdict is that they are not as good as the stock M3 brakes.
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      11-24-2008, 12:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moog55 View Post
i think these performance brakes have been discussed before and the verdict is that they are not as good as the stock M3 brakes.
They aren't for the M3.
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      11-24-2008, 01:07 PM   #12
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There is no way I would hold my breath for CC brakes for the M3. The rotors are just way too expensive. Most of what you get from CC rotors is just longer life and weight reduction not really improved braking distances nor fade resistance.
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      11-24-2008, 05:28 PM   #13
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You guys aren's seriously excited about the BMW performance brakes for the 135/335???
They're smaller than your stock brakes. The only advantage is the nice looking calipers.

Besides, would you really want this to happen:



Here's the thread: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18453
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

Last edited by aus; 11-24-2008 at 11:31 PM..
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      11-24-2008, 05:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Most of what you get from CC rotors is just longer life and weight reduction not really improved braking distances nor fade resistance.
These guys seem to think differently for sure based on their comparison and test drive of the Enzo vs. the MC12 on the Ring, which appearently have the same chassis and drivetrain (I didn't know that), but the Enzo has ceramic brakes and the MC12 doesn't. They complain about fade with the MC12, which they attribute to the steel rotors.

http://www.supercarmovies.com/html/interface.html
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      11-24-2008, 05:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
You guys aren's seriously excited about the BMW performance brakes for the 135/335???
They're smaller than your stock brakes. The only advantage is the nice looking calipers.

Besides, would you really want this to happen:

Here's the thread: http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/wleng/IMG_0570.jpg
How did that piston crack exactly? Your link to the thread brings up the picture.
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      11-24-2008, 06:16 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
How did that piston crack exactly? Your link to the thread brings up the picture.
Judging from the picture they got hot, real hot, damn hot!
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      11-24-2008, 11:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
How did that piston crack exactly? Your link to the thread brings up the picture.
My bad. It's fixed now.

It appears a racing team had some race pads custom cut for the caliper. Then they destoyed two sets of calipers one of which was loaned to them from another racer!!

The guys who loaned them his calipers said he used the stock pads and KILLED them, but had no problems with the piston's falling apart. There are a lot more pic's in that thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Su
I don't think it's an isolated issue. I think it'll happen every single time in the right conditions. I think it's the track pads causing a lot more heat and sustaining that heat is probably causing the damage. Something that BMW did not anticipate I guess. The AutoX guys should be ok as I don't think the short runs will build enough heat to cause damage.

We've run about 6 track days on our OEM brembo caliper. All 6 days were run on the same OEM pad. The brakes were worked pretty hard and for a long period of time, enough to get smoke billowing out the wheels heavily. By the time we took off the OEM caliper and swapped to the Brembo BBK, the pads were falling apart. However, the caliper looked fine. This same OEM caliper was loaned to Scott which apparrently didn't even last 1 event. The logical variable here is the brake pads.

I'm pretty sure Scott will figure out a solution quickly. They have no choice, they can't upgrade.
More pic's half way down the thread here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...t=18453&page=4

And a follow-up thread showing the piston's taken out of the caliper: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...453#post277453
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      11-25-2008, 01:25 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
These guys seem to think differently for sure based on their comparison and test drive of the Enzo vs. the MC12 on the Ring, which appearently have the same chassis and drivetrain (I didn't know that), but the Enzo has ceramic brakes and the MC12 doesn't. They complain about fade with the MC12, which they attribute to the steel rotors.

http://www.supercarmovies.com/html/interface.html
Honestly I did not even watch the video but I still ave a reply ready (does that make me automatically wrong or cocky?). Drivers and journalists are not always correct and are know to speculate as well.

Brake pads need to have properties that are tailored to the temperatures they will see. In this regards track pads have it easy as they often only have to work well warm to hot, maybe just hot only depending on the track. Street pads are obviously different. Of course the pad is developed to match the rotor in terms of friction, wear and material transfer but the rotor material is not the magic - it is the pad. So again CC rotors provide: decreased weight, increased lifetime and great resistance to warpage from heat. Fade is caused by pad and/or fluid problems. Assuming the pads were properly matched to the rotors and that both systems were adequately cooled and all else was apples the apples fade should be similar. So in conclusion I would simply bet the pads were not up to the task. They were surely different pads but I'd say different but not equal.
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      11-25-2008, 06:09 AM   #19
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Swamp,

Not meaning to disagree, but a lot of the alleged advantages of ceramics (namely longevity and resistance to warpage) have not been borne out in practice for some manufacturers at least.

Carbon ceramics are not the be all end all that they are made out to be. Look at Porsche. Huge problems with rotor life, ironically when tracking which is supposed to be the environment they are designed for. Lots of horror stories of carbon rotors cracking after 2-3 track days. Loads of Gt3 owners have [down?]graded to steels, due to this issue and then re-fit the carbons when selling the car. Alcon in particular, offer an aftermarket rotor that works with the OEM pistons that come with the ceramics, just for this issue.

That coupled with the fact that the replacements are hard to obtain and cost a fortune, means that IMO they are for bragging rights only.

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      11-25-2008, 07:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Honestly I did not even watch the video but I still ave a reply ready (does that make me automatically wrong or cocky?). Drivers and journalists are not always correct and are know to speculate as well.

Brake pads need to have properties that are tailored to the temperatures they will see. In this regards track pads have it easy as they often only have to work well warm to hot, maybe just hot only depending on the track. Street pads are obviously different. Of course the pad is developed to match the rotor in terms of friction, wear and material transfer but the rotor material is not the magic - it is the pad. So again CC rotors provide: decreased weight, increased lifetime and great resistance to warpage from heat. Fade is caused by pad and/or fluid problems. Assuming the pads were properly matched to the rotors and that both systems were adequately cooled and all else was apples the apples fade should be similar. So in conclusion I would simply bet the pads were not up to the task. They were surely different pads but I'd say different but not equal.
I suggest you watch the videos. The guy is getting sub 7:30 times. He is not a journalist. He knows what he is doing. That doesn't make him an engineer or an expert on brake system, but one would think he would know about potential pad issues. That's not rocket science. Everybody knows pads can and will cause fade if not chosen properly for the application--meaning, what you wrote above is common knowledge. If they are singling out the discs, I must assume they have considered and discounted the pads as the issue. If they haven't, then they are either really stupid or have an agenda.

I personally haven't done any serious research on ceramic discs, so I don't have a position.
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      11-25-2008, 03:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickb View Post
Swamp,

Not meaning to disagree, but a lot of the alleged advantages of ceramics (namely longevity and resistance to warpage) have not been borne out in practice for some manufacturers at least.

Carbon ceramics are not the be all end all that they are made out to be. Look at Porsche. Huge problems with rotor life, ironically when tracking which is supposed to be the environment they are designed for. Lots of horror stories of carbon rotors cracking after 2-3 track days. Loads of Gt3 owners have [down?]graded to steels, due to this issue and then re-fit the carbons when selling the car. Alcon in particular, offer an aftermarket rotor that works with the OEM pistons that come with the ceramics, just for this issue.

That coupled with the fact that the replacements are hard to obtain and cost a fortune, means that IMO they are for bragging rights only.

Mick
Good input. Disagree at will! I always like your posts.

I have heard some horror stories about these brakes rotors. It could be manufacturing issues, quality issues or a variety of other factors. I don't think it is the norm though, but that is mostly a guess. Do you think it is truly the norm? I do believe the material is an amazing one and it has been used very successfully in aerospace brakes, racing brakes and other tortuous industrial applications. There are always some growing pains when switching from very well understood materials in specific applications to very different materials for the same application. Many industries experienced a lot of growing pains moving from metallics to composites (like cabon fiber) for structural applications. This switch will have some of the same growing pains.
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      11-25-2008, 04:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I suggest you watch the videos. The guy is getting sub 7:30 times. He is not a journalist. He knows what he is doing. That doesn't make him an engineer or an expert on brake system, but one would think he would know about potential pad issues. That's not rocket science. Everybody knows pads can and will cause fade if not chosen properly for the application--meaning, what you wrote above is common knowledge. If they are singling out the discs, I must assume they have considered and discounted the pads as the issue. If they haven't, then they are either really stupid or have an agenda.

I personally haven't done any serious research on ceramic discs, so I don't have a position.
A great driver does not make a great engineer (not vice versa!) that is really all I have to say about it. Pure speculation from a driver is as reasonable of an explanation as stupidity or an agenda is it not?
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