M3 vs 911 question

[E90beemerfan]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

so you proved my point, the only time the M3 "shines" is when you need to carry "luggage" and "people" in the trunk. Based on what you're saying then, you carry "luggage" and "people" all the time, so correct, don't buy a 911.

My intention was not to disagree in your statement. I like the engineering of the 911 and agree that this car is hard to beat in most technical aspects. The M3 is not in the same league.

Still, for me the best car is the car I get most enjoyment from more of the time. I think this is an important issue for anyone to consider when buying a performance car, if time and money is a limiting factor.

[Thik]

Originally Posted by ///M Ryder

Is this a joke or a troll fest.....I've bolded all the ones you listed while you were drunk.....Phil

What I meant was I want a car that can do all of that. A car that doesn't have a usable trunk and at least four usable seats is not a car to me. It's a toy. For a toy, you can spend way less than a 911 and have more fun.

[Indiana Jones]

996TT and 997TT are bulletproof...do a quick search of the "mezger" engine. Everything down to the water pumps are race standard parts. Preowned 997TT's have held their value and preowned 996TT's have appreciated approximately 25% over the last 2 years.

I personally feel they are priced too high in the current market, but you can't begin to compare a 997TT or a 991TT to an M. The 996 is dated and not the fastest car, but AWD, a bullet proof motor, and their resale value make them a hell of a car. There are several nuances to the cars regarding resale etc...but a quick search will quickly reveal which preowned 911TT to buy.

[Indiana Jones]

The M really is a great car though...awesome daily that is more than capable at a great price.

Im in a dilemma myself...E90/2, 996/7TT, or F80/2. There are positives and negatives to all of them, so Im stuck.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jones

996TT and 997TT are bulletproof.

Except the coolant hoses. They need to be welded or pinned because otherwise the plastic couplings attached to the hoses with nothing but adhesive will eventually decouple in spectacular fashion.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by FMLYSDN

I took the opportunity to go and test drive a 911 Carrera last year after pondering the same idea. Having owned a 944s and 968, I started looking at P cars in my price range. I must say thought that I was kind of underwhelmed in comparing it to my M5 and M3. I truly believe that there is alot of value in the M cars. You get a lot of car for comparable money. It depends on what you are looking for. In order for me to move up to something comparable in performance with a 911, I would have to spend considerably more. I am not sure how I feel about that. I would love a GT3 but I cannot justify it when it's my daily driver.

Agreed, the price premium Porsche is asking is getting absurd. They were never cheap cars nor did they ever try to win on the value proposition, but it's clear they are trying to move upmarket.

Porsche's insistence on making everything fucking optional drives me nuts, too. The German marques in general are bad about that, but Porsche is the undisputed king of build-to-order.

[JoePcone]

I just test drove a 2017 991.2 turbo. Its a fantastic car but no way is it worth 130k. The handling is amazing but the acceleration isn't that of a six figure car. Alsoif you don't option up the interior it looks like garbage compared to the E92 m3. Overall it's a better car than the M3 but not at that price. The E92 M3 is such an incredible bargain used that it's really tough to justify the significant increase in price to a991.2. Next week will be the 991TT so I'm sure that'll be worth every penny

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by JoePcone

I just test drove a 2017 991.2 turbo. Its a fantastic car but no way is it worth 130k. The handling is amazing but the acceleration isn't that of a six figure car. Alsoif you don't option up the interior it looks like garbage compared to the E92 m3. Overall it's a better car than the M3 but not at that price. The E92 M3 is such an incredible bargain used that it's really tough to justify the significant increase in price to a991.2. Next week will be the 991TT so I'm sure that'll be worth every penny

I completely disagree. I too had an extended test drive of a 991.2 turbo. While I haven't driven many Porsches prior, the 991 Turbo is worth every penny you pay for and then some. The acceleration IS on par of a 6-figure car. It is one of the few street cars out there that when you accelerate it puts that "pit" in your stomach feeling like you were on a roller coaster. The 1+g of acceleration is just brutal.

The only thing I don't like on the Turbo is the light front end. Coming from a FR layout in the M3, you're looking for a more planted turn in feeling, and the 991 turbo doesn't give you that confidence, though, you can feel the front wheels kick in and grab for traction under certain conditions.

That said, yes the E9X M3 today is a bargain today for performance return for dollar.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jones

996TT and 997TT are bulletproof...do a quick search of the "mezger" engine. Everything down to the water pumps are race standard parts. Preowned 997TT's have held their value and preowned 996TT's have appreciated approximately 25% over the last 2 years.

I personally feel they are priced too high in the current market, but you can't begin to compare a 997TT or a 991TT to an M. The 996 is dated and not the fastest car, but AWD, a bullet proof motor, and their resale value make them a hell of a car. There are several nuances to the cars regarding resale etc...but a quick search will quickly reveal which preowned 911TT to buy.

What are some examples of this appreciation? I have never been able to figure out the market for used 911s...

Part of me understand you need to pay to play, but I can't swallow $70+k on a 6+ year old car.

[ajee622]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

What are some examples of this appreciation? I have never been able to figure out the market for used 911s...

Part of me understand you need to pay to play, but I can't swallow $70+k on a 6+ year old car.

I agree with you. When the time comes and I can afford to spend $70k on a car to going to be tough for me to buy a car that's that old.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by ajee622

I agree with you. When the time comes and I can afford to spend $70k on a car to going to be tough for me to buy a car that's that old.

So, the only consistent pricing I've seen are premiums for "GT" 911s. So anything that says GT3, GT2, GTS has consistent pricing power.

While 3 years ago, the 997 GTS was a fantastic car, there's no way I'm paying any money close to what people want for that car today. To me the GTS is worth no more than $50k. Not when you can get a new F80 for close to the used money on a GTS. IMO, the F80 is a better car than the 997 GTS.

Also, I wouldn't consider a 996 GT3, not when you can simply have a E9X M3....yet the pricing for it is all whack.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

I completely disagree. I too had an extended test drive of a 991.2 turbo. While I haven't driven many Porsches prior, the 991 Turbo is worth every penny you pay for and then some. The acceleration IS on par of a 6-figure car. It is one of the few street cars out there that when you accelerate it puts that "pit" in your stomach feeling like you were on a roller coaster. The 1+g of acceleration is just brutal.

The only thing I don't like on the Turbo is the light front end. Coming from a FR layout in the M3, you're looking for a more planted turn in feeling, and the 991 turbo doesn't give you that confidence, though, you can feel the front wheels kick in and grab for traction under certain conditions.

That said, yes the E9X M3 today is a bargain today for performance return for dollar.

Can you two clarify in your posts whether you're talking about just a 991.2 turbo (which is all of them right now, in which case don't bother specifying turbo) or THE 991.2 Turbo, as in the model above the Carrera S? I'm assuming that JoePCone drove a regular 991.2 Carrera or maybe S based on the $130K figure and Flying Ace drove an actual 991.2TT based on the acceleration description?

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Can you two clarify in your posts whether you're talking about just a 991.2 turbo (which is all of them right now, in which case don't bother specifying turbo) or THE 991.2 Turbo, as in the model above the S? I'm assuming that JoePCone drove a regular 991.2 Carrera or maybe S based on the $130K figure and Flying Ace drove an actual 991.2TT based on the acceleration description?

I meant 991.2 TWIN TURBO. Just realized what's going on...lol. Also realized the 991.2 TT is not even close to $130k. The car I drove was $200k+ Life-changing, eye-popping type experience to have when you first drive it.

Yes, I see what Joe is talking about. The new 991.2 turbo engines, $130k, no bueno. I would rather hold out for a late model 997 GT3.

[dparm]

Frankly, I think the 911 C2S is more than enough car for people. I get it, some people want the GTx models for track use, but even a 911 C2S is still extremely capable on the track.

What I don't understand is the countless number of 911 GT2s and GT3s I see driving around the streets of downtown Chicago.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by dparm

Frankly, I think the 911 C2S is more than enough car for people. I get it, some people want the GTx models for track use, but even a 911 C2S is still extremely capable on the track.

What I don't understand is the countless number of 911 GT2s and GT3s I see driving around the streets of downtown Chicago.

Interesting, been in downtown Chicago for the last 3 days and haven't seen any. I've only seen 2 GT2s ever though (and one GT2RS) -- one at CotA, one in the Gold Rush Rally, and the RS randomly pulling into a car wash. The owner of the RS had several other cars he used on the track, including a Cup car. The RS (tuned for more hp) was just the fun car he used while he was staying in Austin. There's always another level....

But to your main point, it's not always about performance level. The experience has a lot to do with it, which is why some people might prefer a lower horsepower more engaging car to a faster more disconnected car even with similar running costs. The GT cars definitely offer more "theater" than the non-GT cars, which is why you don't see owners of earlier GT3s lining up to buy a 991.2 Carrera. But I agree, owning a GT car with no intention of tracking it seems pointless, and owners seem to agree seeing as 80% of GT cars see track time, and a good chunk of the remaining 20% are probably bubble wrapped in a collection seeing few miles at all. Maybe the ones you're seeing on the road are also used on track? I'm DDing my GT4, after all.

[anerbe]

After extensively driving the Turbo in 996, 997.2 (S) and 991 form as well as a new GT4, the only PCar that I would upgrade from the M3 is a 997.2 GT3 6MT that I drove around for a few weeks.

The Turbo cars are indeed fast and the torque pull is gratifying, but after being in Forced Induction engines for the past 8 years, there's something magical with the build-up frenzy of a high revving NA engine that produces peak power at redline.

The high torque forced induction motors give a roller coaster type feel with the pull in your stomach. The M3 and GT3 give you a sense of spine tingling chaos as you approach redline.

The Turbo Porsches are very capable and a riot to drive, but I still find the best experience from the NA high revving classics.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Interesting, been in downtown Chicago for the last 3 days and haven't seen any. I've only seen 2 GT2s ever though (and one GT2RS) -- one at CotA, one in the Gold Rush Rally, and the RS randomly pulling into a car wash. The owner of the RS had several other cars he used on the track, including a Cup car. The RS (tuned for more hp) was just the fun car he used while he was staying in Austin. There's always another level....

But to your main point, it's not always about performance level. The experience has a lot to do with it, which is why some people might prefer a lower horsepower more engaging car to a faster more disconnected car even with similar running costs. The GT cars definitely offer more "theater" than the non-GT cars, which is why you don't see owners of earlier GT3s lining up to buy a 991.2 Carrera. But I agree, owning a GT car with no intention of tracking it seems pointless, and owners seem to agree seeing as 80% of GT cars see track time, and a good chunk of the remaining 20% are probably bubble wrapped in a collection seeing few miles at all. Maybe the ones you're seeing on the road are also used on track? I'm DDing my GT4, after all.

Porsche 911 GT cars are an exception in terms of usage. I too have seen that 80% figure, and I believe it. But for all other performance cars, I would wager the breakdown is more 10%-90%, 10% of owners will see at least 1 track day...and for AMG owners, it's more like 0.1%-99.9%

To your point, buying a performance car for DD just for the theatre is a perfectly legit reason to buy a performance car. Only haters would say something like... "well, I'd bet he doesn't take that to a track", b/c it really doesn't matter. I'm sure 19 year old BRZ/FRS owners see me rocking my M3 and say that, but the joke is on them. My commute to work and any other time I'm driving my M3 is 10000% more enjoyable than their experience in their cars. And yes, I've driven a BRZ before, it's no M3, it's not even on par with my old Evo8....

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Porsche 911 GT cars are an exception in terms of usage. I too have seen that 80% figure, and I believe it. But for all other performance cars, I would wager the breakdown is more 10%-90%, 10% of owners will see at least 1 track day...and for AMG owners, it's more like 0.1%-99.9%

To your point, buying a performance car for DD just for the theatre is a perfectly legit reason to buy a performance car. Only haters would say something like... "well, I'd bet he doesn't take that to a track", b/c it really doesn't matter. I'm sure 19 year old BRZ/FRS owners see me rocking my M3 and say that, but the joke is on them. My commute to work and any other time I'm driving my M3 is 10000% more enjoyable than their experience in their cars. And yes, I've driven a BRZ before, it's no M3, it's not even on par with my old Evo8....

Yeah I have a GT3 and I don't track it. It's fun to drive anywhere. I've got 10k miles on it and I smile every time I drive. I'm sure tracking it would be fun, but it's already so much fun just taking it out on a sunny day on some back roads.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by atxgt3

Yeah I have a GT3 and I don't track it. It's fun to drive anywhere. I've got 10k miles on it and I smile every time I drive. I'm sure tracking it would be fun, but it's already so much fun just taking it out on a sunny day on some back roads.

Well you should still track SOMETHING.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Well you should still track SOMETHING.

Yes, I'll track someone else's GT3.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

To your point, buying a performance car for DD just for the theatre is a perfectly legit reason to buy a performance car. Only haters would say something like... "well, I'd bet he doesn't take that to a track", b/c it really doesn't matter. I'm sure 19 year old BRZ/FRS owners see me rocking my M3 and say that, but the joke is on them. My commute to work and any other time I'm driving my M3 is 10000% more enjoyable than their experience in their cars. And yes, I've driven a BRZ before, it's no M3, it's not even on par with my old Evo8....

Agreed with the point in general, although I enjoyed the BRZ for what it was on back roads. It convinced me never to get a performance car heavier than my E92, if nothing else. But I don't think I personally would have gotten an M3 (never mind the GT4) if I would never track it. Yes it makes even a commute more fun than a some other car, but not more fun by an amount that justifies its higher total cost of ownership compared to something else IMHO. But that could be because I actually HAVE tracked the car and therefore see just how much of the M3's value and fun potential people who don't track are leaving on the table never to be experienced or appreciated. I would have difficulty spending that much money only to leave that much fun untapped.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by atxgt3

Yes, I'll track someone else's GT3.

Longhorn Racing Academy will rent you one, along with a 458, R8, Huracan, and other goodies. But if you've never even gotten a ride on track and want one around CotA sometime to get a sense of what you're missing, PM me. I'll be out with Edge Addicts in June. Just seems a little disingenuous for you to have a pic of your car at CotA as your Rennlist avatar never having tracked it.