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05-14-2010, 01:53 PM | #67 | |
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good deal. you have me thinking since i'm in nj. is this something they knock out in a few hours? so i can drive up in the morning and drive home the same day? i had 3.91 gears put in both of my previous e46m3's and it was one of the best mods! |
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05-14-2010, 04:16 PM | #68 |
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Thanks for the review on the differential. Every time I have the opportunity to do a side by side comparison I’m blown away by the difference it makes. It's unfortunate that most people just seem to over look them because they don’t add power to the engine.
-Scott
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05-14-2010, 06:23 PM | #69 | |
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05-16-2010, 12:56 AM | #72 |
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Who are these people that always chime in to say it's not faster? I don't care if my car is now 0-60 in 6 seconds, All that matters is that I got the diff and my car feels perfect!!! With the stock Differential and "the way I drive" it felt like a 328 from 0-20mph.
Now I floor it and laugh because it f'ing pulls in 1st gear. to each their own... |
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05-16-2010, 01:04 AM | #73 | |
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05-16-2010, 01:25 AM | #74 | |
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Or even more important - - but everyone's definition of "concrete" results is very subjective as well. |
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05-16-2010, 03:22 PM | #75 | |
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wow the diff must have went up then bc i got it for alot less then that. i wouldn't have done it if it was that much
i like all my mods from dinan but the one that was the best for me the most power gain and the most overall make me want to get in the car everyday mod was the midpipe and muffler combo. i had the software and rear muffler first which was ok little power increase and the software made the car run alot better and increased rev limiter and all. but when i added the midpipe i was like wow. it was like a new car. the increased power and tq was awesome so if your asking me my op i would leave the other stuff for now and just do the midpipe and muffler with the software that is gonna be the most power gain and that you will actually really feel the difference. the sound is amazing and it doesn't drone and is only loud when you want it to be so i don't think it would bother the wife. if that guy whos car your going to drive has the midpipe and muffler then you will see what i mean. below 4k it has a nice deep tone then above 4k it has a higher pitch exotic tone to it. all this while not droning inside the car and not loud inside the car Quote:
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05-16-2010, 03:25 PM | #76 | |
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actually those other companies you mentioned are very close in price to the dinan parts when you compare. i price shopped and they were all very close in price and some even more money. i had dinan in the past on all my M cars so i just went with them bc i never had problems in the past
i agree for that money they want to charge him on the diff i would drop it and do some form of a midpipe combo as that gave me the most power and wow factor Quote:
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05-16-2010, 03:29 PM | #77 | |
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Dinan isn't a step down in the software dept they aren't trying to do what those other companies are doing with the software by getting the very most hp and tq out of it. i am quite sure Dinan could get more out of it if they wanted to
they offer a conservative tune for people who want that. one that adds something to the car but not one that steps into the realm of having problems with it. not saying the other companies are bad but some people prefer a conservative tune rather then one that is going for the most possible Quote:
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05-16-2010, 03:34 PM | #78 |
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i just realized you don't even have the car yet. i would drive it stock for awhile and get to know the car then decide on the mods. you may like it as is stock and decide you don't need anything. it is a great car stock just as it is. i have the 6sp man which seems to be the non fav here over the DCT but i love it. i drove a DCT and while cool and all i just prefer a real manual.
good luck with your new car
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05-16-2010, 05:08 PM | #79 | |
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It actually is not subjective at all and is easily measureable. Of course you can also get this simple one by simulation. Almost all aspects of performance that folks only decribe by feel are very well quantifiable and measureable. All you need to measure is acceleration vs. time. What you feel from this mod is increased peak and average acceleration. By measuring the accel vs. time you will also get the shape and the duration in each gear. Well folks might have different criteria but again whether it is a commonly reported performance metric or something such as feel you can measure, quantify and rank it. "Concrete" simply means measurable and significant.
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05-16-2010, 06:36 PM | #80 | ||
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You're dismissing my entire argument while missing my point - and not being very nice
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The goal is to make the car feel better - we are sentient beings and we assess all things by how they make us feel, and any subsequent measurements are tools to analyze, not the end goal. Improved 0-60, 60-130 1/4 mile times etc are examples of measurement based goals, but changes in measurements can't be uniformly applied to ascertain the success of all modifications. Quote:
However, you can't measure perception - and that's what we're talking about here. |
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05-16-2010, 08:14 PM | #81 | |
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I think the Dinan tune doesn't make as much power or at least claim to make as much power because it is a universal tune - i.e. for 91 Octane + - so it won't be tuned as aggressively as an alternative tune that is tuned for a minimum 93 Octane. One could argue that raising the rev limit to 8600rpm is potentially more dangerous than any other tuning change that could be made - it certainly raises the possibility of the tune being detected (most conservative folk probably wouldn't want that). |
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05-16-2010, 08:18 PM | #82 | |
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For instance, adding my cat-back exhaust did little to nothing for the objective metrics on my car, velocity/acceleration/jerk, but it sure is more fun to drive and feels like more of a beast since I got it. |
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05-16-2010, 09:20 PM | #83 | |
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It is all about feel for me personally. BUT, before I buy, I need to be convinced. I would like to see objective metrics on the mods by the vendors that sell the mods. ActiveWerks does a good job of this. Like a Dyno graph AND an independant confirmation of improvement by a VBOX 0-60 before and after a tune, or the pulleys, or air box.... and diff.... If they actually work and prove it, they will sell lots more you would think. I think both points of view are valid - 1) the metrics to prove that the risk of modding the car (risk to warranty) is worth the gain in performance. and 2) that the car feels faster, or pulls more, or responds quicker. IE: the Dinan air filter - The High Flow Intake produces a maximum gain of 8 horsepower and 5 lb-ft torque @ 8200 rpm - Well does it? Dyno by Dinan please..... and lets check the 0-60 time before and after - does it make any difference for $1350 installed? OR can I just by the $70 Active Autowerks air filter and get the same result. Now the feel part - is the throttle response better, does it sound better... The 4.10 gears are a better feel from members here, and we do see videos of E46 M3 cars with 4.10 beating stock geared cars.... We should be able to see an improved torque curve for sure. I would love to see the 0-60 times before and after.... or a race of a E9X with stock gears to a 4.10 car - that would put this issue to bed. (H Bomb and everyone - thanks for all your comments on my posts I really appreciate them !! I am soooo pumped to be getting my M). |
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05-16-2010, 10:16 PM | #84 |
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05-17-2010, 02:16 AM | #85 | ||||
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Either we are just on a radically different wavelength, you are still missing the point or you're not making you point very clearly. The "feel" that we keep discussing is quantifiable, measureable and there is an almost perfect correlation between them. Again... A FD mod provides: -Improved peak in gear acceleration -Improved average acceleration comparing gear to gear -Improved "feel" All of these things are consistent, both the feel and the measurements (and of course the physics). The only possible inconsistency here between feel and measurement is: -The car will get to redline in each gear quicker. This provides a false illusion of a car that has an overall (i.e. multi gear acceleration) higher acceleration. It will be sometimes a bit worse and sometimes a bit better depending on exactly what specific metric you chose. Quote:
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This gets back to the emotion thing which in this case should be entirely left out of the discussion. I'm nearly certain no one here in saying "feel" meant emotion. They simply mean their perception of in gear "punch" or "pull" which again is exactly equivalent to peak in gear acceleration. And despite being able to be fooled (mostly by acoustics and NVH) humans can feel and "measure" acceleration pretty well.
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05-17-2010, 02:28 AM | #86 | |
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A FD ratio mod changes the torque at the wheels. Of course you can measure that after doing a FD mod. An improvement to that spec will provide an improved in gear "punch". The real metric that determines overall vehicle performance is simply power (to the wheels) to weight ratio. The only way to really get improvements in performance is to better this ratio. Again there is no such thing as a free lunch. Also 0-60 is too much of a traction and driver launch skill race. It is by far from the best way to show the difference between stock and modded FD ratio.
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05-17-2010, 04:03 AM | #87 |
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I've posted this up before but here it is again for this thread.
The following graph is taken from CarTest simulation software. The graph shows the effect of changing Final Drive ratio on 1/4 mile times. As you can see, the software predicts the ideal FD for 1/4 mile is around 3.95, with the 3.85 and 4.10 being pretty much identical. |
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05-17-2010, 08:31 PM | #88 | ||||||
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The "improvement" I was referring to is relative to the perception of the changes by the driver - you cannot measure that. Here is the complete quote ; "The mod may not be meant to improve on specific specs - it may be meant to improve the "feel" of the car for a specific driver. This improvement cannot be measured for comparative gains as it is a very subjective thing, yet still a no less important way for an individual car owner to assess value of a mod" You are forgetting the original post here - The OP is happy with the mod and his improved drivability and that is the acid test of it's success to him and the others chiming in. I am just trying to convey to you that in addition to your approach, there are other intangible ways to evaluate any modification. I know you have done extensive work on this particular mod, so you are well invested in it's pros and cons and you bring an invaluable service to the membership of this forum with your input. I am not attempting to dismiss your analysis or even challenge it, I simply want to make the point that there are other ways to assess these things as individuals. What would you say to mfeltiii and his example of his cat back exhaust? Does it not qualify as a mod that can be judged because it is something that can't be measured ? He enjoys the sound and that changes his perception of his car and increases his enjoyment - successful mod in my books. What about a rear diffuser or carbon trim? You can't measure these either, but the driver will enjoy his car more as a result. Quote:
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You do reference here that it provides a "false illusion" That is in fact a change in a driver's perception and therefore supports my point. Whether it's real or perceived, it does not matter if the driver likes the change to the car. Quote:
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I really don't want to get in to a battle of attrition with you Swamp - by the look of your almost 7000 posts, I will lose I'm sure. Just trying to get my point across and am having fun debating you. I am posting here with all due respect to what you bring to the forum, but feel strongly about my position. Tag, you're it. |
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