Official S65 Bearing Specification/Clearance Wiki

tlrid3r · 12-23-2014, 09:09 PM

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theboss1853 · 12-28-2014, 02:41 PM

I have a 2008 M3 6MT with the infamous S65 Rod Bearing Failure.

I opened a case with BMW, NA and they were useless... and denied any responsibility and ultimately turned down my request for assistance. Sorry no warranty and we aren't going to help was the deal.

The dealer quoted $30K for a new engine with install and asked for my after-market warranty info... of course I DON'T have an after-market warranty! I'm screwed.

So here we go.. I have read all these different threads and appreciate all the work that you guys have put into this. I have a very good mechanic that will be removing my engine to diagnose how bad the failure is.

The car has 60,041 miles on her when it failed. I was driving low RPMs pulling up to a light when my engine stalled. I tried starting it but the engine was seized. The engine was able to start after manually turning engine back and forth but loud noises came from lower end of engine hence the diagnosis of the spun bearing issue. Dealer removed the oil filter and found metal shavings.

So here is my repair research and thoughts/questions:

Things to consider:
Crankshaft Replacement Kit
Connecting Rods
Rod Bearings
Crankshaft
What other parts should we replace now?
Oil Pump
Underdrive pully
Timing Chain?
Belts & Gaskets
Oil

Summary cost @ minimum expense
Crankshaft Kit and bearings $2290
Gaskets $176
Oil Kit $112
Labor ???
Total $2600 + Labor

If connecting rods needed add $2300 = $5K plus labor

Add additional $1K if wanted performance bearings = $6K plus labor

Some of my cost research and parts, etc...

Crankshaft Replacement Kit
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3-...cal/ES2730670/
Crankshaft And Bearings With Core Charge
BMW E92 M3 S65 4.0L
Price includes $100 core charge
Complete crankshaft with bearing shells
Ships on Jan 20th
$2290.60

http://www.vacmotorsports.com/

Connecting Rods (if needed?)
Arrow Precision - S65 Connecting Rod
Can install with stock pistons - (Unlike Carrillo, these rods can be run with stock pistons. You must balance the rotating assembly.)
Price: $319.95 x 8 = $2,559.60

Rod Bearings
VAC Performance Coated Rod Bearing Set (BMW S65 Engine)
SKU: VAC-HPRBS-S65
Price: $539.95

VAC High Performance Main Bearing Set S65
Price: $599.95
SKU: VAC-HPMBS-S65

Do I need both sets of bearings?

Or should we stick with ESS Tuning bearings to match the new crank?
http://www.esstuning.com/products/S6...-Bearings.html
S65 High Performance Rod Bearings
Price: $595.00

Oil Pump
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3-..._Pump/ES23709/
Oil Pump
BMW E92 M3 S65 4.0L
$594.75

Gaskets
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3-...Seals/ES17510/
Crankcase Gasket Set
BMW E92 M3 S65 4.0L
All of the gaskets you need to service your crankcase Lower engine gasket set include oil pan gasket, crank and intermediate shaft seals and seal cover gaskets, and miscellaneous o-rings and gaskets. Perfect for lower engine repairs or to stop engine oil leaks originating from the engine block area.
$176.86

Anything you guys can offer to help me on this please let me know. I will keep everyone posted on my progress.

I'd love to hear any input on this and/or if anyone has rebuilt an S65 engine following a spun bearing....

THANKS!!!

JEllis · 12-28-2014, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theboss1853

I have a 2008 M3 6MT with the infamous S65 Rod Bearing Failure.

I opened a case with BMW, NA and they were useless... and denied any responsibility and ultimately turned down my request for assistance. Sorry no warranty and we aren't going to help was the deal.

The dealer quoted $30K for a new engine with install and asked for my after-market warranty info... of course I DON'T have an after-market warranty! I'm screwed.

So here we go.. I have read all these different threads and appreciate all the work that you guys have put into this. I have a very good mechanic that will be removing my engine to diagnose how bad the failure is.

The car has 60,041 miles on her when it failed. I was driving low RPMs pulling up to a light when my engine stalled. I tried starting it but the engine was seized. The engine was able to start after manually turning engine back and forth but loud noises came from lower end of engine hence the diagnosis of the spun bearing issue. Dealer removed the oil filter and found metal shavings.

So here is my repair research and thoughts/questions:

Things to consider:
Crankshaft Replacement Kit
Connecting Rods
Rod Bearings
Crankshaft
What other parts should we replace now?
Oil Pump
Underdrive pully
Timing Chain?
Belts & Gaskets
Oil

Summary cost @ minimum expense
Crankshaft Kit and bearings $2290
Gaskets $176
Oil Kit $112
Labor ???
Total $2600 + Labor

If connecting rods needed add $2300 = $5K plus labor

Add additional $1K if wanted performance bearings = $6K plus labor

Some of my cost research and parts, etc...

Crankshaft Replacement Kit
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3-...cal/ES2730670/
Crankshaft And Bearings With Core Charge
BMW E92 M3 S65 4.0L
Price includes $100 core charge
Complete crankshaft with bearing shells
Ships on Jan 20th
$2290.60

http://www.vacmotorsports.com/

Connecting Rods (if needed?)
Arrow Precision - S65 Connecting Rod
Can install with stock pistons - (Unlike Carrillo, these rods can be run with stock pistons. You must balance the rotating assembly.)
Price: $319.95 x 8 = $2,559.60

Rod Bearings
VAC Performance Coated Rod Bearing Set (BMW S65 Engine)
SKU: VAC-HPRBS-S65
Price: $539.95

VAC High Performance Main Bearing Set S65
Price: $599.95
SKU: VAC-HPMBS-S65

Do I need both sets of bearings?

Or should we stick with ESS Tuning bearings to match the new crank?
http://www.esstuning.com/products/S6...-Bearings.html
S65 High Performance Rod Bearings
Price: $595.00

Oil Pump
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3-..._Pump/ES23709/
Oil Pump
BMW E92 M3 S65 4.0L
$594.75

Gaskets
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3-...Seals/ES17510/
Crankcase Gasket Set
BMW E92 M3 S65 4.0L
All of the gaskets you need to service your crankcase Lower engine gasket set include oil pan gasket, crank and intermediate shaft seals and seal cover gaskets, and miscellaneous o-rings and gaskets. Perfect for lower engine repairs or to stop engine oil leaks originating from the engine block area.
$176.86

Anything you guys can offer to help me on this please let me know. I will keep everyone posted on my progress.

I'd love to hear any input on this and/or if anyone has rebuilt an S65 engine following a spun bearing....

THANKS!!!

I like where your head is at. Another thing to consider that I think is often overlooked or misunderstood, is that the new engine is actually a re-manufactured S65 from BMW, not a NEW motor.

You might consider one of Dinans remanufactured motors for $18K. Still a big chunk of change but all the work is done for you and its much cheaper than a BMW remanufacture ($18K vs $23K). I am not sure what install costs would be, that would probably depend on where you have it installed.

Also, used S65s can be found at a significant savings as well. You could purchase a lightly used S65, have it inspected, and upgrade the bearings.

Just a thought...

marksae · 12-28-2014, 10:15 PM

theboss1853, any telltale signs from engine noises that led up to the failure?

theboss1853 · 12-29-2014, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marksae

theboss1853, any telltale signs from engine noises that led up to the failure?

Engine Ticking Noise at low RPMs is what I noticed. If you hear this stop driving and replace the bearings immediately.

Rupes · 12-29-2014, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theboss1853

http://www.vacmotorsports.com/

Rod Bearings
VAC Performance Coated Rod Bearing Set (BMW S65 Engine)
SKU: VAC-HPRBS-S65
Price: $539.95

THANKS!!!

I think there is some concern over the VAC coated bearings. The thought was that the extra coating shrinks an already tight clearance leading to premature failure. I'm not the leading expert on this issue though, so don't take my word alone.

Rupes · 12-29-2014, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theboss1853

Engine Ticking Noise at low RPMs is what I noticed. If you hear this stop driving and replace the bearings immediately.

Thanks for all your insight, you may help others with this issue down the road. In summary, it sounds like you had some warning to this issue but that your exhaust muffled the engine sound to detect it sooner. You mentioned this may have been going on for as long as three to four weeks. Do you daily drive your car? How many miles would you think you put on during those two weeks? Did the sound occur when the engine was cold as well as warmed up?

Sorry for all the questions, this just continues to be a very elusive topic for many owners.

theboss1853 · 12-29-2014, 03:14 PM

I didn't drive it much - probably 50 miles at most. The noise was cold and warm engine. I always let it warm up as a standard cold start procedure.

///M Power-Belgium · 12-29-2014, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theboss1853

I didn't drive it much - probably 50 miles at most. The noise was cold and warm engine. I always let it warm up as a standard cold start procedure.

What brand...type of oil was used during the failure?
Castrol TWS 10W60...or the updated Castrol EDGE...or maybe Mobil 1 0W40 ?

GIdriver · 12-29-2014, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

What brand...type of oil was used during the failure?
Castrol TWS 10W60...or the updated Castrol EDGE...or maybe Mobil 1 0W40 ?

I wonder if changing between these three (suposedly good all three) engine oils could cause catrastophic engine failure? Are these S85/S65 engines so sensitive to the oil being used (provided that all three are reasonably good oils for the task at hand)? Or is there an intrinsic engine design flaw? I'm no engineer or oil expert, therefore my question. Sorry if this has been discussed previously.

///M Power-Belgium · 12-29-2014, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIdriver

I wonder if changing between these three (suposedly good all three) engine oils could cause catrastophic engine failure? Are these S85/S65 engines so sensitive to the oil being used (provided that all three are reasonably good oils for the task at hand)? Or is there an intrinsic engine design flaw? I'm no engineer or oil expert, therefore my question. Sorry if this has been discussed previously.

The answer is that I have more info than other people on this forum about the Worldwide bearing failure numbers , and all this information I'm trying to drop into my personal database , and that's why I was asking about what oil was used .
Castrol TWS and EDGE (TWS is now replaced by EDGE) both 10W60 are supplied and recommend by BMW , M1 not .
And to be honest BMW has Worldwide serious f@cked up with the bearings of the S85 and now with our S65 !
Here it's quit easy to understand what's going on with our S65 =>http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786615
And the reason why you can read in this thread .
For some it's only Internet hysteria for others (like you) sadly the reality .
BTW...My S65 is running just perfect (for the moment) , and realy hope to keep it this way .
But think you can know it..because it was you that was selling your car with the same problem.

GIdriver · 12-30-2014, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The answer is that I have more info than other people on this forum about the Worldwide bearing failure numbers , and all this information I'm trying to drop into my personal database , and that's why I was asking about what oil was used .
Castrol TWS and EDGE (TWS is now replaced by EDGE) both 10W60 are supplied and recommend by BMW , M1 not .
And to be honest BMW has Worldwide serious f@cked up with the bearings of the S85 and now with our S65 !
Here it's quit easy to understand what's going on with our S65 =>http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786615
And the reason why you can read in this thread .
For some it's only Internet hysteria for others (like you) sadly the reality .
BTW...My S65 is running just perfect (for the moment) , and realy hope to keep it this way .
But think you can know it..because it was you that was selling your car with the same problem.

PM'd

///M Power-Belgium · 12-30-2014, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIdriver

PM'd

Got it and answered .

theboss1853 · 02-02-2015, 12:33 PM

Failure was isolated to a single spun bearing that happened at LOW RPMs. All rods are in good shape (not blue colored). Very small amount of metal shavings found. In process of an engine rebuild with a new crank shaft, new bearings, new clutch, and a ton of other replacements that we are going to do that makes sense to do while we have the engine pulled.

Interesting find when we pulled the transmission - as it turns out my clutch has a broken pressure plate so it was only a matter of time before I would have had to replace it anyways.

How could this have happened with only 60,000 miles?

I'll share more as we pull it apart further.

regular guy · 02-04-2015, 11:48 PM

Here's some updates I've been sitting on the the past few months of vacation. As soon as I get some time, I'll get each of these posted.

1. 96 rod journals measured on 12 crankshafts. Gives a much better picture of the tolerance spread. News: 3% of journals are 3-sigma off nominal (compare that to WW failure rate).
2. Updated "nominal" rod bearing clearance measurements based on the 96 journal measurements. News: nominal improves slightly.
3. Updated min/max clearances observed in real life. News: min got smaller, max got larger.
4. Full bearing clearance measurements on a virgin set of Calico coated bearings. News: clearance is just as bad and exactly what was predicted based on static measurements.
5. Tear-down pictures of Calico coated bearings at 1500 miles and 20000 miles. News: it doesn't look pretty, not even at 1500 miles.

tom @ eas · 02-04-2015, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular guy

Here's some updates I've been sitting on the the past few months of vacation. As soon as I get some time, I'll get each of these posted.

1. 96 rod journals measured on 12 crankshafts. Gives a much better picture of the tolerance spread. News: 3% of journals are 3-sigma off nominal (compare that to WW failure rate).
2. Updated "nominal" rod bearing clearance measurements based on the 96 journal measurements. News: nominal improves slightly.
3. Updated min/max clearances observed in real life. News: min got smaller, max got larger.
4. Full bearing clearance measurements on a virgin set of Calico coated bearings. News: clearance is just as bad and exactly what was predicted based on static measurements.
5. Tear-down pictures of Calico coated bearings at 1500 miles and 20000 miles. News: it doesn't look pretty, not even at 1500 miles.

Welcome back.

Sephiroth · 02-05-2015, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular guy

Here's some updates I've been sitting on the the past few months of vacation. As soon as I get some time, I'll get each of these posted.

1. 96 rod journals measured on 12 crankshafts. Gives a much better picture of the tolerance spread. News: 3% of journals are 3-sigma off nominal (compare that to WW failure rate).
2. Updated "nominal" rod bearing clearance measurements based on the 96 journal measurements. News: nominal improves slightly.
3. Updated min/max clearances observed in real life. News: min got smaller, max got larger.
4. Full bearing clearance measurements on a virgin set of Calico coated bearings. News: clearance is just as bad and exactly what was predicted based on static measurements.
5. Tear-down pictures of Calico coated bearings at 1500 miles and 20000 miles. News: it doesn't look pretty, not even at 1500 miles.

Assuming you did gage r&r and the variation is highly attributable to the rod journals themselves:
3 std devs off? I want to say

but what are the typical limits for control of this tolerance that BMW should use? How far off are the other 97% of journals?

regular guy · 02-05-2015, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1love

Assuming you did gage r&r and the variation is highly attributable to the rod journals themselves:
3 std devs off? I want to say

but what are the typical limits for control of this tolerance that BMW should use? How far off are the other 97% of journals?

I'll post the entire journal measurements and std-dev binning. I'll post the numbers...you decide. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Welcome back.

Thank you Tom.

///M Power-Belgium · 02-05-2015, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular guy

Here's some updates I've been sitting on the the past few months of vacation. As soon as I get some time, I'll get each of these posted.

1. 96 rod journals measured on 12 crankshafts. Gives a much better picture of the tolerance spread. News: 3% of journals are 3-sigma off nominal (compare that to WW failure rate).
2. Updated "nominal" rod bearing clearance measurements based on the 96 journal measurements. News: nominal improves slightly.
3. Updated min/max clearances observed in real life. News: min got smaller, max got larger.
4. Full bearing clearance measurements on a virgin set of Calico coated bearings. News: clearance is just as bad and exactly what was predicted based on static measurements.
5. Tear-down pictures of Calico coated bearings at 1500 miles and 20000 miles. News: it doesn't look pretty, not even at 1500 miles.

Feels good to see you back on here !
"So welcome back"....

Bearing replacement on Euro/Spec S65 => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post17337971

theboss1853 · 02-05-2015, 10:03 AM

Always used the same oil. Castrol 10W-60 TWS Synthetic Oil per manufacture spec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

What brand...type of oil was used during the failure?
Castrol TWS 10W60...or the updated Castrol EDGE...or maybe Mobil 1 0W40 ?

s85e90 · 02-05-2015, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theboss1853

Here are a few photos of my bearing failure and engine rebuild in process.

Failure was isolated to a single spun bearing that happened at LOW RPMs. All rods are in good shape (not blue colored). Very small amount of metal shavings found. In process of an engine rebuild with a new crank shaft, new bearings, new clutch, and a ton of other replacements that we are going to do that makes sense to do while we have the engine pulled.

Interesting find when we pulled the transmission - as it turns out my clutch has a broken pressure plate so it was only a matter of time before I would have had to replace it anyways.

How could this have happened with only 60,000 miles?

I'll share more as we pull it apart further.

I would also add a new oil cooler to your list is metal has gone through the motor.

Mvy · 02-06-2015, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular guy

5. Tear-down pictures of Calico coated bearings at 1500 miles and 20000 miles. News: it doesn't look pretty, not even at 1500 miles.

A collective oh shit from all of use who installed Calico coated bearings

.... Did the builds you looked at also use the ARP connecting bolts?

12-23-2014, 09:09 PM	#2157
tlrid3r just another M3 514 Rep 1,150 Posts Drives: e92 M3 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Jose, ca iTrader: (6)	Subscribe __________________ ///M3... Don't want more power, Just want it to turn sharper one step closer each time. -Ohlins TTX Raceline, PolePostions seats, Akrapovic EVO, ARC-8, 1/2 Cage, Seat Delete, Stoptech BBK, solid Subframe and diff bushing, spherical bearing on everything.
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12-28-2014, 02:41 PM	#2158
theboss1853 New Member 10 Rep 27 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Chicago iTrader: (0)	My S65 Engine Spun a Bearing... My Nightmare Begins!!! I have a 2008 M3 6MT with the infamous S65 Rod Bearing Failure. I opened a case with BMW, NA and they were useless... and denied any responsibility and ultimately turned down my request for assistance. Sorry no warranty and we aren't going to help was the deal. The dealer quoted $30K for a new engine with install and asked for my after-market warranty info... of course I DON'T have an after-market warranty! I'm screwed. So here we go.. I have read all these different threads and appreciate all the work that you guys have put into this. I have a very good mechanic that will be removing my engine to diagnose how bad the failure is. The car has 60,041 miles on her when it failed. I was driving low RPMs pulling up to a light when my engine stalled. I tried starting it but the engine was seized. The engine was able to start after manually turning engine back and forth but loud noises came from lower end of engine hence the diagnosis of the spun bearing issue. Dealer removed the oil filter and found metal shavings. So here is my repair research and thoughts/questions: Things to consider: Crankshaft Replacement Kit Connecting Rods Rod Bearings Crankshaft What other parts should we replace now? Oil Pump Underdrive pully Timing Chain? Belts & Gaskets Oil Summary cost @ minimum expense Crankshaft Kit and bearings $2290 Gaskets $176 Oil Kit $112 Labor ??? Total $2600 + Labor If connecting rods needed add $2300 = $5K plus labor Add additional $1K if wanted performance bearings = $6K plus labor Some of my cost research and parts, etc... Crankshaft Replacement Kit http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3-...cal/ES2730670/ Crankshaft And Bearings With Core Charge BMW E92 M3 S65 4.0L Price includes $100 core charge Complete crankshaft with bearing shells Ships on Jan 20th $2290.60 http://www.vacmotorsports.com/ Connecting Rods (if needed?) Arrow Precision - S65 Connecting Rod Can install with stock pistons - (Unlike Carrillo, these rods can be run with stock pistons. You must balance the rotating assembly.) Price: $319.95 x 8 = $2,559.60 Rod Bearings VAC Performance Coated Rod Bearing Set (BMW S65 Engine) SKU: VAC-HPRBS-S65 Price: $539.95 VAC High Performance Main Bearing Set S65 Price: $599.95 SKU: VAC-HPMBS-S65 Do I need both sets of bearings? Or should we stick with ESS Tuning bearings to match the new crank? http://www.esstuning.com/products/S6...-Bearings.html S65 High Performance Rod Bearings Price: $595.00 Oil Pump http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3-..._Pump/ES23709/ Oil Pump BMW E92 M3 S65 4.0L $594.75 Gaskets http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3-...Seals/ES17510/ Crankcase Gasket Set BMW E92 M3 S65 4.0L All of the gaskets you need to service your crankcase Lower engine gasket set include oil pan gasket, crank and intermediate shaft seals and seal cover gaskets, and miscellaneous o-rings and gaskets. Perfect for lower engine repairs or to stop engine oil leaks originating from the engine block area. $176.86 Anything you guys can offer to help me on this please let me know. I will keep everyone posted on my progress. I'd love to hear any input on this and/or if anyone has rebuilt an S65 engine following a spun bearing.... THANKS!!!
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12-28-2014, 10:15 PM	#2160
marksae First Lieutenant 36 Rep 368 Posts Drives: ///M Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Bay Area iTrader: (6)	theboss1853, any telltale signs from engine noises that led up to the failure? __________________ 04 E46 M3 6MT - AW / Cinn 93 FD RX-7 Base Manual - BB / Blk IG: @gearheadtwins
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12-29-2014, 03:14 PM	#2164
theboss1853 New Member 10 Rep 27 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Chicago iTrader: (0)	I didn't drive it much - probably 50 miles at most. The noise was cold and warm engine. I always let it warm up as a standard cold start procedure.
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02-02-2015, 12:33 PM	#2170
theboss1853 New Member 10 Rep 27 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Chicago iTrader: (0)	My 2008 M3 Engine Rebuild due to Spun Bearing Failure was isolated to a single spun bearing that happened at LOW RPMs. All rods are in good shape (not blue colored). Very small amount of metal shavings found. In process of an engine rebuild with a new crank shaft, new bearings, new clutch, and a ton of other replacements that we are going to do that makes sense to do while we have the engine pulled. Interesting find when we pulled the transmission - as it turns out my clutch has a broken pressure plate so it was only a matter of time before I would have had to replace it anyways. How could this have happened with only 60,000 miles? I'll share more as we pull it apart further. Last edited by theboss1853; 12-13-2016 at 04:16 PM..
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02-04-2015, 11:48 PM	#2171
regular guy Lieutenant Colonel 427 Rep 1,947 Posts Drives: Sprint car Join Date: May 2013 Location: California iTrader: (0)	Here's some updates I've been sitting on the the past few months of vacation. As soon as I get some time, I'll get each of these posted. 1. 96 rod journals measured on 12 crankshafts. Gives a much better picture of the tolerance spread. News: 3% of journals are 3-sigma off nominal (compare that to WW failure rate). 2. Updated "nominal" rod bearing clearance measurements based on the 96 journal measurements. News: nominal improves slightly. 3. Updated min/max clearances observed in real life. News: min got smaller, max got larger. 4. Full bearing clearance measurements on a virgin set of Calico coated bearings. News: clearance is just as bad and exactly what was predicted based on static measurements. 5. Tear-down pictures of Calico coated bearings at 1500 miles and 20000 miles. News: it doesn't look pretty, not even at 1500 miles.
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