New Speculations on the F30 M3 / F32 M3

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by ruff

I believe BMW still has a viable market out there for the hard core enthusiasts. BMW was one of the pioneers to attract and mine this very market when it developed the M Division. Porsche is beginning to mop up the market share of disaffected M enthusiast and I believe the defection to Porsche will continue at an accelerated rate.

On a positive note, the 1M is a turn back in the right direction for M, especially given the budget and time constraints. Though I think most 1M shoppers would gladly dish out an addition 5k+ to get a unique M motor with a few more ponies. It will certainly steal market share from the Japanese sports car manufactures.

As I have said in the past and other reiterated, if the next generation M3 came equipped with a tweaked S65, or they threw in the S65 B44 powerplant from the GTS and dropped a hundred + pounds, it would save development/production costs and continue the M tradition of high revving banshee screaming race tuned M cars.

Anyone who has driven the current M3 knows that the race bred S65 is what makes the car so special. Porschephiles knows the unqualified importance of the dry sump racing GT1/Mezger motor found in the GT3. And anyone who follows the Z06 knows what the race bred small block LS7 means to the Corvette faithful.

I have seen more than a few folks here state their desire to own a GT3 vs the faster GTR and a lot of it has to do with the character of the GT1 motor, even though it gives up a lot in horsepower and torque to the Nissan twin turbo. And the talk of "soulessness" of the GTR is in part due to it's technologically advanced transmission and electronic nannies that ironically make it even faster.

It is sad to see the M division abandoning the brilliant S65 and its racing ties. It is the closest powerplant to the Ferrari F430 in sound and character on the market today, and at a fraction of the price. Remember how we celebrated this very fact and gloated about its eight individual throttle butterflies and 8400 red line. Let me repeat that - 8400 red line. How quickly we forget. The next generation M3 could take a page from Ferrari and implement DI and remain the Ferrari like power plant at a bargain basement price to the 458. And throw in livable back seats for free, just because. Sounds like an enticing marketing campaign for BMW to snatch away Porsche market share.

Excellent post!

The first paragraph in particular is highly plausible IMHO. ///M would have been a colossal disaster but for hardcore enthusiasts, and what we are on the brink of seeing realized is that which would be a very bitter pill for many of those same enthusiasts to swallow. Many will simply refuse to swallow and move on as you've suggested.

[BMW269]

I can't understand, why if BMW M is the only not to offer a supercar, even AWD, FI and DCT, not at least make an exception with the M3, and leave it NA?

An other thought:
What if S55 TT 3.5l I6, is a n updated S54, to 3.5l, block made of aluminium/magnesium and TT added. This would still make it rev till 8.000 rpm....

PS: Can't wait to see what shall be the new Ferrari V8 Turbo Supercar, Enzo replacement.

[Erhan]

I still don't get why they're not using supercharger. I get it, the FI is "the future". But at least put a freaking supercharger.

Please don't tell me turbo is more fuel efficient. It is an M car. Supercharger will give enough fuel efficiency. If BMW is this much concerned about fuel efficieny they should use a diesel. That will also help people complaining about the low end torque.

[BMW269]

What does this mean?

Originally Posted by Levi

Even the RS4 gets a V8?
M is going to be a disgrace among RS and AMG.
M: Marketing at worst. No SLS, 911, R8, Lambo, Ferrari, LF-A, ZR1, rival. Soon no more M3: TT I6.

Originally Posted by SCOTT

There is nothing to fear.

[BMW269]

An other point:

BMW and M is said to be a leader, right? BMW M does not want to build an R8 rival because they do not follow, so was it. But, to say the truth, the M3 E92 was not a leader with its NA V8, it followed the RS4 B7. So is the next M3 F32 with its TT I6, is it also going to be a follower of the RS4 B8 3.0 TFSI (info of footie)?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

I think you are spot on for everything above with one exception -- that which I've emboldened -- and from what is already being said/posted, it's probably very safe to say that there will be a significant defection factor where M enthusiasts and owners go elsewhere thanks to BMW's decision to offer an M3 that has much more in common with run-of-the-mill BMWs than was the case with its M3 predecessors (e.g. NA motor, redline increased over previous generation). And then there's been talk of "no manual transmission" in the F32 which, if realized, would simply be akin to rubbing salt into open wounds.

Some who can afford a (well optioned) Porsche and can sacrifice on the 4 seats/daily driver aspects might go that way but my guess is that it will be far fewer than one might think by solely reading these forums. Also, not entirely relevant for the enthusiast only concerned about the M3, but for BMW M GmbH, they have been and will gain many more than will be lost with the 1M, M2, X5M, X6M. Of course that being said it is sad to see hardcore enthusiasts disillusioned.

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

My faith is that M Division could achieve that improved all around package with a NA motor. The fact that turbos are replacing NA M motors is harder for me to stomach than would the inclusion of AWD on the M3.

There does seem to be some room for an evolved S65 type powered car in their M line up and the M3 seems like the most natural spot (perhaps the M2). However, I find it really hard to believe any M enthusiast would rather see AWD before FI. You can't be serious.

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Some who can afford a (well optioned) Porsche and can sacrifice on the 4 seats/daily driver aspects might go that way but my guess is that it will be far fewer than one might think by solely reading these forums. Also, not entirely relevant for the enthusiast only concerned about the M3, but for BMW M GmbH, they have been and will gain many more than will be lost with the 1M, M2, X5M, X6M. Of course that being said it is sad to see hardcore enthusiasts disillusioned.

Agreed. Somehow my sense is that those "gains" which BMW M GmbH stands to enjoy thanks to its redefining ///M will largely consists of individuals that are customers first, M enthusiasts second if at all. And if that is the case, what one will have is a relatively "softer" overall clientele in which brand loyalty may be much less reliable than has been the case to date.

Originally Posted by swamp2

There does seem to be some room for an evolved S65 type powered car in their M line up and the M3 seems like the most natural spot (perhaps the M2). However, I find it really hard to believe any M enthusiast would rather see AWD before FI. You can't be serious.

The motor goes to the heart of the matter; quite literally. A change of the character of the "heart" and nothing really is the same, is it?

How would you rank the following on a most to least important to you basis where the next-gen M3 is the subject; RWD, normally aspirated, transmission (MT or AT) of your choice?

To me, it's NA uber alles.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

Agreed. Somehow my sense is that those "gains" which BMW M GmbH stands to enjoy thanks to its redefining ///M will largely consists of individuals that are customers first, M enthusiasts second if at all. And if that is the case, what one will have is a relatively "softer" overall clientele in which brand loyalty may be much less reliable than has been the case to date.

Agreed - right back at ya.

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

How would you rank the following on a most to least important to you basis where the next-gen M3 is the subject; RWD, normally aspirated, transmission (MT or AT) of your choice?

To me, it's NA uber alles.

There are really three answers here. Mine, what I think the typical M owner wants and finally what BMW thinks is best. They obviously are not all the same.

For me personally RWD is #1, secondly I have been both thrilled and spoiled by my M-DCT so not offering one might be a deal breaker to me. Although I love the current S65 engine if the new FI engine has all of the characteristics I think it should have (and that I think BMW will deliver) that is a far distant 3rd criteria to me.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by swamp2

If you are waiting for M sales to drop and M to become a less viable division of BMW I think you better be prepared to wait for a long time...

No I don't see this happening, as I have stated, too many soccer moms & guys compensating for other things not to sell these new brand of ///Ms well......but perhaps is making the gap between Porsche and ///M even that much greater....

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by swamp2

That is a good point although I think the engine as a system is a much better way to realize the large number of differences that will exist. After all I think e46e92love's point was that non M cars and their corresponding numbered M car will get "essentially" the same engine.

Thanks, that is exactly what I'm saying

Originally Posted by southlight

Sorry mate if the sarcasm of that post hasn't been clear enough.

My bad, now I feel stupid for having missed that......

Originally Posted by southlight

Understood, I just don't see how this would be different from what BMW did with the S50B30 and the S54B32 which both were (loosely) based on the M50.


Best regards,
south

Excellent point, but that is not the direction ///M has been taking their cars for the last few generations, and I think the direction they had taken for generations was the better one, but I guess no more


Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

One (somewhat subjective, yes) point to be made here is that the S54B32 in particular takes the production I6 and provides a segue into the racing I6. IOW, you build the race motor using the motor out of the production sports car as a starting point.

Same thing with the S65 today, and many engines over the long and storied history of BMW M.

We don't know for sure yet, but it seems less likely that this will hold in the future, although I'm the first to admit that turbo racing motors in spec series are on the rise. Still, I just don't necessarily think we are going to see, for example, a 550hp turbo "P55" I6 being used for race spec M3 in LeMans, DTM, FIA, etc. Seems more likely they will either go small displacement (2L - 2.5L) turbo four, or stick with high revving naturally aspirated motors.

Great point Mkoesel.

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

Agreed. Somehow my sense is that those "gains" which BMW M GmbH stands to enjoy thanks to its redefining ///M will largely consists of individuals that are customers first, M enthusiasts second if at all. And if that is the case, what one will have is a relatively "softer" overall clientele in which brand loyalty may be much less reliable than has been the case to date.

I know three posts in a row show up from me, but I re-read some posts and realized this very important one. See the thing BMW fails to see is that generation after generation it has garnered a lot of sales from its loyal enthusiasts, something they seem to be placing less and less importance on. In the short run, they will be right and sell more ///Ms, but, when the crowd blows the way of the wind, and the wind blows towards another manufacturer, they are screwed, because by that time the enthusiasts will have all but left.

Their plan works in the short run, but irreparable damage to its core image, brand and following will in the long run hurt their bottom line. Only time will tell, but my bet is I'm right. The ///M we know is dying.............not all change is bad, but in this situation, IT IS.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

I know three posts in a row show up from me, but I re-read some posts and realized this very important one. See the thing BMW fails to see is that generation after generation it has garnered a lot of sales from its loyal enthusiasts, something they seem to be placing less and less importance on. In the short run, they will be right and sell more ///Ms, but, when the crowd blows the way of the wind, and the wind blows towards another manufacturer, they are screwed, because by that time the enthusiasts will have all but left.

Their plan works in the short run, but irreparable damage to its core image, brand and following will in the long run hurt their bottom line. Only time will tell, but my bet is I'm right. The ///M we know is dying.............not all change is bad, but in this situation, IT IS.

Cheers,
e46e92

Good point. I wonder how many people buy the M3 not because it is a BMW but because it is a better performing car compared to C63 and RS4?

I'm recently buying my 4th BMW, and with all honesty, everytime I wanted to buy a new car, I looked at other brand's offerings, but they just don't have what BMW has for my needs. Sure if I wanted 4 wheel drive I'd be looking into Audis or if I was looking luxury I'd be looking into Mercedes.. But BMW is (soon to be was) unique in terms of "civilized racing cars"... And that, I believe, is going away.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

I know three posts in a row show up from me, but I re-read some posts and realized this very important one. See the thing BMW fails to see is that generation after generation it has garnered a lot of sales from its loyal enthusiasts, something they seem to be placing less and less importance on. In the short run, they will be right and sell more ///Ms, but, when the crowd blows the way of the wind, and the wind blows towards another manufacturer, they are screwed, because by that time the enthusiasts will have all but left.

Their plan works in the short run, but irreparable damage to its core image, brand and following will in the long run hurt their bottom line. Only time will tell, but my bet is I'm right. The ///M we know is dying.............not all change is bad, but in this situation, IT IS.

Cheers,
e46e92

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

I know three posts in a row show up from me, but I re-read some posts and realized this very important one. See the thing BMW fails to see is that generation after generation it has garnered a lot of sales from its loyal enthusiasts, something they seem to be placing less and less importance on. In the short run, they will be right and sell more ///Ms, but, when the crowd blows the way of the wind, and the wind blows towards another manufacturer, they are screwed, because by that time the enthusiasts will have all but left.

Their plan works in the short run, but irreparable damage to its core image, brand and following will in the long run hurt their bottom line. Only time will tell, but my bet is I'm right. The ///M we know is dying.............not all change is bad, but in this situation, IT IS.

Cheers,
e46e92

In a very romantic sense I would like to agree with you. But I don't.

Certainly many trends and consumer choices are driven by early adopters, trend setters and the like. Some followers/late adopters then buy just to jump on the bandwagon. Certainly some of this happens with the M3 and M brand. What many of us enthusiasts fail to remember is that the vast majority of M3s never see a track. The vast majority (or at least a majority) of owners also never visit or post here at m3post.com. The disappointment in the M brand from "purists", "loyalists", "real enthusiasts", track junkies, etc. is indeed a real phenomena. It is certainly not unanimous nor I'd guess anywhere close to unanimous even among this particular portion of the client base. It is my estimation that the disappointment level is higher for sure, but not high in an absolute sense.

I think you know as well as I do that as long as the next gen M3 produces "the numbers" folks will be lined up for it. By "the numbers" I mean that unique combination of price to performance and luxury relative to the competition.

If all of the folks who have completely lost faith in M as having any sufficient Motorsport qualities left due to somewhat subjective things like M SUVs, FI and perhaps M-DCTs only leave the brand and permanently go elsewhere even in the long run I'd almost guarantee no real short nor long term harm to the brand. The only thing that would do such harm would if the cars stopped winning all of the magazine reviews by providing competitively inferior products.

There is not really a constant in the ///M as I have pointed out before, the brand and car itself has been very steadily evolving and it continues to do so. The size, power, production quantities, performance, engine character, sound, luxury, price, demographic, etc. has all been evolving. It is certainly not dying by changing. We all know change is very often quite difficult to accept and we see this with every generation of the M3. Perhaps ///M is dying for you, I certainly can't argue with that. Nonetheless let me place a small friendly bet with you. You WILL eventually want an F32 M3. I'm not saying you WILL choose to buy one over another option, but it will very likely still stir your soul quite a bit.

Cheers.

[quality_sound]

Originally Posted by swamp2

In a very romantic sense I would like to agree with you. But I don't.

Certainly many trends and consumer choices are driven by early adopters, trend setters and the like. Some followers/late adopters then buy just to jump on the bandwagon. Certainly some of this happens with the M3 and M brand. What many of us enthusiasts fail to remember is that the vast majority of M3s never see a track. The vast majority (or at least a majority) of owners also never visit or post here at m3post.com. The disappointment in the M brand from "purists", "loyalists", "real enthusiasts", track junkies, etc. is indeed a real phenomena. It is certainly not unanimous nor I'd guess anywhere close to unanimous even among this particular portion of the client base. It is my estimation that the disappointment level is higher for sure, but not high in an absolute sense.

I think you know as well as I do that as long as the next gen M3 produces "the numbers" folks will be lined up for it. By "the numbers" I mean that unique combination of price to performance and luxury relative to the competition.

If all of the folks who have completely lost faith in M as having any sufficient Motorsport qualities left due to somewhat subjective things like M SUVs, FI and perhaps M-DCTs only leave the brand and permanently go elsewhere even in the long run I'd almost guarantee no real short nor long term harm to the brand. The only thing that would do such harm would if the cars stopped winning all of the magazine reviews by providing competitively inferior products.

There is not really a constant in the ///M as I have pointed out before, the brand and car itself has been very steadily evolving and it continues to do so. The size, power, production quantities, performance, engine character, sound, luxury, price, demographic, etc. has all been evolving. It is certainly not dying by changing. We all know change is very often quite difficult to accept and we see this with every generation of the M3. Perhaps ///M is dying for you, I certainly can't argue with that. Nonetheless let me place a small friendly bet with you. You WILL eventually want an F32 M3. I'm not saying you WILL choose to buy one over another option, but it will very likely still stir your soul quite a bit.

Cheers.

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

Agreed. Somehow my sense is that those "gains" which BMW M GmbH stands to enjoy thanks to its redefining ///M will largely consists of individuals that are customers first, M enthusiasts second if at all. And if that is the case, what one will have is a relatively "softer" overall clientele in which brand loyalty may be much less reliable than has been the case to date.

The motor goes to the heart of the matter; quite literally. A change of the character of the "heart" and nothing really is the same, is it?

How would you rank the following on a most to least important to you basis where the next-gen M3 is the subject; RWD, normally aspirated, transmission (MT or AT) of your choice?

To me, it's NA uber alles.

Why accept anything less than all 3 if that’s what one wants? If we all don’t speak with our wallets then everything important to the “auto enthusiast philosophy” as we understand it today will be taken away step by step, never to return.

Originally Posted by e46e92love

I know three posts in a row show up from me, but I re-read some posts and realized this very important one. See the thing BMW fails to see is that generation after generation it has garnered a lot of sales from its loyal enthusiasts, something they seem to be placing less and less importance on. In the short run, they will be right and sell more ///Ms, but, when the crowd blows the way of the wind, and the wind blows towards another manufacturer, they are screwed, because by that time the enthusiasts will have all but left.

Their plan works in the short run, but irreparable damage to its core image, brand and following will in the long run hurt their bottom line. Only time will tell, but my bet is I'm right. The ///M we know is dying.............not all change is bad, but in this situation, IT IS.

Cheers,
e46e92

This is true; however the fact is that in all likelihood it is irrelevant. Major auto manufacturers will almost certainly cease production of the internal combustion engine in the not so distant future. There also exists the reality that all personal vehicles may end up being remotely operated by a central traffic control computer. So if BMW has peered slightly into the future, they know they should cash in all their cards while they can. This is also known as selling out.

Originally Posted by swamp2

In a very romantic sense I would like to agree with you. But I don't.

Certainly many trends and consumer choices are driven by early adopters, trend setters and the like. Some followers/late adopters then buy just to jump on the bandwagon. Certainly some of this happens with the M3 and M brand. What many of us enthusiasts fail to remember is that the vast majority of M3s never see a track. The vast majority (or at least a majority) of owners also never visit or post here at m3post.com. The disappointment in the M brand from "purists", "loyalists", "real enthusiasts", track junkies, etc. is indeed a real phenomena. It is certainly not unanimous nor I'd guess anywhere close to unanimous even among this particular portion of the client base. It is my estimation that the disappointment level is higher for sure, but not high in an absolute sense.

I think you know as well as I do that as long as the next gen M3 produces "the numbers" folks will be lined up for it. By "the numbers" I mean that unique combination of price to performance and luxury relative to the competition.

If all of the folks who have completely lost faith in M as having any sufficient Motorsport qualities left due to somewhat subjective things like M SUVs, FI and perhaps M-DCTs only leave the brand and permanently go elsewhere even in the long run I'd almost guarantee no real short nor long term harm to the brand. The only thing that would do such harm would if the cars stopped winning all of the magazine reviews by providing competitively inferior products.

There is not really a constant in the ///M as I have pointed out before, the brand and car itself has been very steadily evolving and it continues to do so. The size, power, production quantities, performance, engine character, sound, luxury, price, demographic, etc. has all been evolving. It is certainly not dying by changing. We all know change is very often quite difficult to accept and we see this with every generation of the M3. Perhaps ///M is dying for you, I certainly can't argue with that. Nonetheless let me place a small friendly bet with you. You WILL eventually want an F32 M3. I'm not saying you WILL choose to buy one over another option, but it will very likely still stir your soul quite a bit.

Cheers.

You are absolutely correct throughout, but all of what you say runs under the assumption that what is new is always better or even necessary. There are those who have no desire to own any car for pleasure that utilizes fuel injection or was released after the oil crisis began in the early 70’s. Who are you or I to say they should suck it up, accept change and go buy a modern performance car?

There will always be those who buy into the newest technology, trend, advancement, etc. However when it comes to something as emotional and irrational as performance cars, the nature of the experience proceeds all for the true coinsurer.

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

I know three posts in a row show up from me, but I re-read some posts and realized this very important one. See the thing BMW fails to see is that generation after generation it has garnered a lot of sales from its loyal enthusiasts, something they seem to be placing less and less importance on. In the short run, they will be right and sell more ///Ms, but, when the crowd blows the way of the wind, and the wind blows towards another manufacturer, they are screwed, because by that time the enthusiasts will have all but left.

Their plan works in the short run, but irreparable damage to its core image, brand and following will in the long run hurt their bottom line. Only time will tell, but my bet is I'm right. The ///M we know is dying.............not all change is bad, but in this situation, IT IS.

Cheers,
e46e92

Agreed

Originally Posted by swamp2

In a very romantic sense I would like to agree with you. But I don't.

Certainly many trends and consumer choices are driven by early adopters, trend setters and the like. Some followers/late adopters then buy just to jump on the bandwagon. Certainly some of this happens with the M3 and M brand. What many of us enthusiasts fail to remember is that the vast majority of M3s never see a track. The vast majority (or at least a majority) of owners also never visit or post here at m3post.com. The disappointment in the M brand from "purists", "loyalists", "real enthusiasts", track junkies, etc. is indeed a real phenomena. It is certainly not unanimous nor I'd guess anywhere close to unanimous even among this particular portion of the client base. It is my estimation that the disappointment level is higher for sure, but not high in an absolute sense.

I think you know as well as I do that as long as the next gen M3 produces "the numbers" folks will be lined up for it. By "the numbers" I mean that unique combination of price to performance and luxury relative to the competition.

If all of the folks who have completely lost faith in M as having any sufficient Motorsport qualities left due to somewhat subjective things like M SUVs, FI and perhaps M-DCTs only leave the brand and permanently go elsewhere even in the long run I'd almost guarantee no real short nor long term harm to the brand. The only thing that would do such harm would if the cars stopped winning all of the magazine reviews by providing competitively inferior products.

There is not really a constant in the ///M as I have pointed out before, the brand and car itself has been very steadily evolving and it continues to do so. The size, power, production quantities, performance, engine character, sound, luxury, price, demographic, etc. has all been evolving. It is certainly not dying by changing. We all know change is very often quite difficult to accept and we see this with every generation of the M3. Perhaps ///M is dying for you, I certainly can't argue with that. Nonetheless let me place a small friendly bet with you. You WILL eventually want an F32 M3. I'm not saying you WILL choose to buy one over another option, but it will very likely still stir your soul quite a bit.

Cheers.

Yes, the evolution has been ongoing where ///M is the subject; no disagreement there.

However, a couple of points are in order. One, the evolution to date has been restricted by the overall ///M build philosophy – balance, normally aspirated motors, and progressively higher revving motors. Apparently, only the balance element will be part and parcel of the fifth generation M3. The discarding of precedent is not evolutionary rather revolutionary. So, the “evolutionary” model is not really applicable where the fifth generation M3 is the subject.

Two, a business is sometimes viewed as an establishment. IMHO, M Division is just that; an establishment given its history. Its founding principles were the stuff of genius since they dramatically altered the automotive industry, and M Division’s success has greatly exceeded even the wildest dreams of its creators. Having said that, the foundation of any structure is its most important aspect where remaining a viable edifice is the goal. The structural integrity model can be applied to a business, and in particular M Division. While it is true that M enthusiasts, purists, et al are a relatively minor slice of the overall M ownership pie, I think it would be a mistake to understand their importance to M Division’s long term viability since that group is, to revert back to the structural example, the foundation. While I am not privy to the mindset that’s driving the decision-making in M Division, it is probably fair to say that not everyone in M Division is thrilled about the prospect of the division attempting to reinvent itself via revolution.

My crystal ball isn’t the best, but you and I won’t need a crystal ball to predict what M Division will find itself having to do a few years down the road with its turbocharged M cars: The division will have to successively reinvent its products to attract the crowd that comes and goes much like most auto manufacturers find themselves doing, and that is thanks to it having witnessed significant erosion of its “foundation” (i.e. the hardcore ///M enthusiasts) which have always welcomed evolution, but not revolution.

Originally Posted by HBspeed

Why accept anything less than all 3 if that’s what one wants? If we all don’t speak with our wallets then everything important to the “auto enthusiast philosophy” as we understand it today will be taken away step by step, never to return.

Indeed! That's why I'm going to place a last minute order on one of the current generation M3's.

Originally Posted by HBspeed

You are absolutely correct throughout, but all of what you say runs under the assumption that what is new is always better or even necessary. There are those who have no desire to own any car for pleasure that utilizes fuel injection or was released after the oil crisis began in the early 70’s. Who are you or I to say they should suck it up, accept change and go buy a modern performance car?

There will always be those who buy into the newest technology, trend, advancement, etc. However when it comes to something as emotional and irrational as performance cars, the nature of the experience proceeds all for the true coinsurer.

You hit the nail on the head!

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by swamp2

You WILL eventually want an F32 M3. I'm not saying you WILL choose to buy one over another option, but it will very likely still stir your soul quite a bit.

Of cource we will want it. It will handle even better than E9x M3 and who knows it may even be lighter. It will be more luxurious and comfortable as well.. BUT all that will be ruined with a retarded (personal opinion) engine, which is really the sad part and a deal breaker for me.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Nonetheless let me place a small friendly bet with you. You WILL eventually want an F32 M3. I'm not saying you WILL choose to buy one over another option, but it will very likely still stir your soul quite a bit.

I think you are probably correct swamp, but I would add that the next generation C63 and ISF and perhaps others (next gen Mustang, ATS-V maybe?) may very well get a lot of emotion from the M enthusiast camp as well. As you point out, the competition made up a lot of ground this generation. It will be interesting to see if that difference shrinks even more in the next five year.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by swamp2

In a very romantic sense I would like to agree with you. But I don't.

Certainly many trends and consumer choices are driven by early adopters, trend setters and the like. Some followers/late adopters then buy just to jump on the bandwagon. Certainly some of this happens with the M3 and M brand. What many of us enthusiasts fail to remember is that the vast majority of M3s never see a track. The vast majority (or at least a majority) of owners also never visit or post here at m3post.com. The disappointment in the M brand from "purists", "loyalists", "real enthusiasts", track junkies, etc. is indeed a real phenomena. It is certainly not unanimous nor I'd guess anywhere close to unanimous even among this particular portion of the client base. It is my estimation that the disappointment level is higher for sure, but not high in an absolute sense.

I think you know as well as I do that as long as the next gen M3 produces "the numbers" folks will be lined up for it. By "the numbers" I mean that unique combination of price to performance and luxury relative to the competition.

If all of the folks who have completely lost faith in M as having any sufficient Motorsport qualities left due to somewhat subjective things like M SUVs, FI and perhaps M-DCTs only leave the brand and permanently go elsewhere even in the long run I'd almost guarantee no real short nor long term harm to the brand. The only thing that would do such harm would if the cars stopped winning all of the magazine reviews by providing competitively inferior products.

There is not really a constant in the ///M as I have pointed out before, the brand and car itself has been very steadily evolving and it continues to do so. The size, power, production quantities, performance, engine character, sound, luxury, price, demographic, etc. has all been evolving. It is certainly not dying by changing. We all know change is very often quite difficult to accept and we see this with every generation of the M3. Perhaps ///M is dying for you, I certainly can't argue with that. Nonetheless let me place a small friendly bet with you. You WILL eventually want an F32 M3. I'm not saying you WILL choose to buy one over another option, but it will very likely still stir your soul quite a bit.

Cheers.

If what you are saying is true, why has the "douche bag" driver switched from BMW to Audi......even Clarkson would agree That is the real point, seeing the demographics of owners of BMW and Audi over the last 5 years. Don't think the wind doesn't blow in certain directions, and don't think for a second, they are not destroying ///M.

BTW, its not the numbers that stir my soul, its 8400 redline, screaming soundtrack, balanced feel, and the knowledge that for the 70k I smacked down, I got more than a tuned N54 engine sitting in the 335i I used to own. Its the reason why when I see a e46 ///M3 I drool, even though the tuned 335i I was driving felt and was faster. Its more than just the numbers......so much more. By every measurement the tuned 335i is a better "evolved" car, but it still don't have that "it" factor of the e46 ///M.

Cheers,
e46e92

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

Yes, the evolution has been ongoing where ///M is the subject; no disagreement there.

However, a couple of points are in order. One, the evolution to date has been restricted by the overall ///M build philosophy – balance, normally aspirated motors, and progressively higher revving motors. Apparently, only the balance element will be part and parcel of the fifth generation M3. The discarding of precedent is not evolutionary rather revolutionary. So, the “evolutionary” model is not really applicable where the fifth generation M3 is the subject.

Two, a business is sometimes viewed as an establishment. IMHO, M Division is just that; an establishment given its history. Its founding principles were the stuff of genius since they dramatically altered the automotive industry, and M Division’s success has greatly exceeded even the wildest dreams of its creators. Having said that, the foundation of any structure is its most important aspect where remaining a viable edifice is the goal. The structural integrity model can be applied to a business, and in particular M Division. While it is true that M enthusiasts, purists, et al are a relatively minor slice of the overall M ownership pie, I think it would be a mistake to understand their importance to M Division’s long term viability since that group is, to revert back to the structural example, the foundation. While I am not privy to the mindset that’s driving the decision-making in M Division, it is probably fair to say that not everyone in M Division is thrilled about the prospect of the division attempting to reinvent itself via revolution.

My crystal ball isn’t the best, but you and I won’t need a crystal ball to predict what M Division will find itself having to do a few years down the road with its turbocharged M cars: The division will have to successively reinvent its products to attract the crowd that comes and goes much like most auto manufacturers find themselves doing, and that is thanks to it having witnessed significant erosion of its “foundation” (i.e. the hardcore ///M enthusiasts) which have always welcomed evolution, but not revolution.

Bingo, great point on the "evolution" vs. "revolution".......I think people are forgetting just how many of the core tenants that ///M Division has run under are being thrown out the window in just one generation.

Cheers,
e46e92