M Division superseded by it's competitors

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Your sentiments are similar to an earlier post I made, however with an optimistic twist on it, which I really think is easily there and easy to make.


From the same post...


So I do very much agree that there is no room for brake fade nor steering problems whatsoever on this car. But the jury seems out on those - we have conflicting reports on both and no solid evidence as to whether or not race pads were used at Ascari. Agreed more folks have criticised the brakes and steering than have praised it but there are also a lot of FULL TESTS yet left to be conducted (have not even had 1 actually...). Try to keep some perspective and look at an accept the large amount of high praise placed on the brakes and steering as well!

If the base price comes in below $60k USD and we continue to get feats like out accelerating the R8 to 200 km/hr as well as very low 8:00 ring times (besting the Carerra S and R8) I still think the car will be a huge winner and class leader. Lastly buy a nice sexy big brake kit and be extremely happy.

I am not calling anything yet, contests, final verdit, unknown specs., etc. I am just keeping an open mind and longing for that test drive as well.

Well said and remember, if the brakes on the new M3 turn out to be slightly "wrong" you can always upgrade them to suit whomeevers taste. But...

That cannot be said about the steering "feel". I just hope some of those reviewers had the servertroic in the soft mode when testing.





-Garrett

[ruff]

First of all, I want to say thanks to everyone who took the time to post on this thread. I believe this is the best auto enthusiast forum available, period. The forum members are a educated and yet helpful. Trolls can also be a good source of information for the brands they support. Other forums are always quoting or using info from this forum for theirs. When I start a thread I am really triying to get answers to questions and concerns I may have. It is amazing how after gathering new information from the responses my former opinion starts to soften and shift. In response to your posts: 1) 2002, you make an excellent point about the price of the R8, love mid engine cars. I just think the M3 is a better pure performance bargain for the money, but not a better car; 2) Swamp, I knew you had to be an engineer with all your calculations but didn't know you had mathematics background as well. Your not helping your case of denying M troll status? It was actually your good posts that fired me up to start this thread; 3) Road Eagle, I need to emulate your positive attitude; 4) Dreamer, agree, as I said before steering not horsepower is the main ingrediant that differentiates a sports car from an appliance; 5) RPA You are right the M Division isn't worse, just different and moving in direction that is disconcerting as far as my preferences;(6) M 2010, you summed up my feelings better than I could;(7 Southlight, You are the man. I was being semi sarcastic about you and I loving MTs. I know you love progess, as do I, given it doesn't reduce the driver involvement. Thanks for the info about Porsche's DI technology; 8) Savage, oh do I know how lucky we are in the states with the prices of autos. I lived in Finland for 16 mos and know the price of a basic commuter car was beyond ridiculous; 9) Garissimo, I am banking on your M3 performance assumptions. You make good a case; 10)Carnuts, as with M 2010 you articulated my feelings better than I ever could; 11) CSL You are right, e46 really didn't have competition until the RS4. So are we going to have to wait 6 years for the new M3 to smoke the competition? 12) Chonko, advice we all need to keep hearing: time will tell how well the M3 stacks up to it's competition; 13) Lucid, no introduction needed. Great forum member. You are alway very informative, yet respectful of others opinions; 14) Garrett, can't agree with you more about emphasizing the concerns about steering feel.

[Caravello]

Cars are also fighting a lot more safety and emissions standards than they used to. All in all, BMW is doing a great job in meeting these nannies' demands and still making a fun and agressive ride.

[musclecar6]

The answer is simple. The M-3 is too heavy. The M-3 is too heavy. The M-3 is too heavy. I mentioned multiple times because everything else doesn't matter. With an equipped price of $ 70,000 plus with 414 hp/295 torque & roughly 3650-3700 lbs, it's too heavy & underpowered compared to the competition. I'm a huge M-3 fan(had a 98 Dinan supercharged M-3 that had 355 hp/307 torque weighed 3200 Lbs) but this iteration is ridiculous. Imho.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ruff

First of all, I want to say thanks to everyone who took the time to post on this thread. I believe this is the best auto enthusiast forum available, period. The forum members are a educated and yet helpful. Trolls can also be a good source of information for the brands they support. Other forums are always quoting or using info from this forum for theirs. When I start a thread I am really triying to get answers to questions and concerns I may have. It is amazing how after gathering new information from the responses my former opinion starts to soften and shift. In response to your posts: 1) 2002, you make an excellent point about the price of the R8, love mid engine cars. I just think the M3 is a better pure performance bargain for the money, but not a better car; 2) Swamp, I knew you had to be an engineer with all your calculations but didn't know you had mathematics background as well. Your not helping your case of denying M troll status? It was actually your good posts that fired me up to start this thread; 3) Road Eagle, I need to emulate your positive attitude; 4) Dreamer, agree, as I said before steering not horsepower is the main ingrediant that differentiates a sports car from an appliance; 5) RPA You are right the M Division isn't worse, just different and moving in direction that is disconcerting as far as my preferences;(6) M 2010, you summed up my feelings better than I could;(7 Southlight, You are the man. I was being semi sarcastic about you and I loving MTs. I know you love progess, as do I, given it doesn't reduce the driver involvement. Thanks for the info about Porsche's DI technology; 8) Savage, oh do I know how lucky we are in the states with the prices of autos. I lived in Finland for 16 mos and know the price of a basic commuter car was beyond ridiculous; 9) Garissimo, I am banking on your M3 performance assumptions. You make good a case; 10)Carnuts, as with M 2010 you articulated my feelings better than I ever could; 11) CSL You are right, e46 really didn't have competition until the RS4. So are we going to have to wait 6 years for the new M3 to smoke the competition? 12) Chonko, advice we all need to keep hearing: time will tell how well the M3 stacks up to it's competition; 13) Lucid, no introduction needed. Great forum member. You are alway very informative, yet respectful of others opinions; 14) Garrett, can't agree with you more about emphasizing the concerns about steering feel.

Ruff, wow, you actually read what everyone has to says. When I quickly read through a thread with many posts on it, I often get the feeling that most of the people who start posting after response 4-5 are just posting without checking to see what has already been said. You clearly consider each single post. That's refreshing. And good luck in your quest in finding the right car.

[BruceWain]

The brakes will be better then fine for everyday street use.
No different then the E46 M3.....
The steering feel will depend on the individual.

REMEMBER:
First drive
NOT FIRST TEST

Just wait !!!

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Your sentiments are similar to an earlier post I made, however with an optimistic twist on it, which I really think is easily there and easy to make.

So I do very much agree that there is no room for brake fade nor steering problems whatsoever on this car. But the jury seems out on those - we have conflicting reports on both and no solid evidence as to whether or not race pads were used at Ascari. Agreed more folks have criticised the brakes and steering than have praised it but there are also a lot of FULL TESTS yet left to be conducted (have not even had 1 actually...). Try to keep some perspective and look at an accept the large amount of high praise placed on the brakes and steering as well!

If the base price comes in below $60k USD and we continue to get feats like out accelerating the R8 to 200 km/hr as well as very low 8:00 ring times (besting the Carerra S and R8) I still think the car will be a huge winner and class leader. Lastly buy a nice sexy big brake kit and be extremely happy.

I am not calling anything yet, contests, final verdict, unknown specs., etc. I am just keeping an open mind and longing for that test drive as well.

The M3 is still among the best in its price class, just not head and shoulders better. Despite early criticism of the brakes and steering, the competition has its faults as well. The handling of the S5 is still not as sharp as the M3, and the C63 is likely to still have a slushbox (though MB is supposedly working on a DCT). If tracking is your passion, the brakes are easily improved (no, you should not have to do this, ideally).

The M3 has proven to be a good target others can shoot for. We all know it's an easier race (car or foot) when you come from behind and not lead the whole time.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by ruff

(7 Southlight, You are the man. I was being semi sarcastic about you and I loving MTs. I know you love progess, as do I, given it doesn't reduce the driver involvement. Thanks for the info about Porsche's DI technology;

Oh, I didn't know you're favouring MT also.
What I forgot to say is that if you don't order M-Drive, you'll still have Servotronic, but just not the possibility to switch between both modes (normal and sport).

Best regards, south

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by musclecar6

The answer is simple. The M-3 is too heavy. The M-3 is too heavy. The M-3 is too heavy. I mentioned multiple times because everything else doesn't matter. With an equipped price of $ 70,000 plus with 414 hp/295 torque & roughly 3650-3700 lbs, it's too heavy & underpowered compared to the competition. I'm a huge M-3 fan(had a 98 Dinan supercharged M-3 that had 355 hp/307 torque weighed 3200 Lbs) but this iteration is ridiculous. Imho.

The new M3 is 73kg heavier than the outgoing E46 M3. It's a ;arger car with a lower center of gravity and mass centered inside the 4 tires. It has 87hp more and alot more usable torque.

The car just looks BIG, but after reading the broshure a couple of times and realize what the engineers did with centering the weigh of the vehichle so it behaves like a mid-engine car is remarkable.




-Garrett

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Garrett

The new M3 is 73kg heavier than the outgoing E46 M3. It's a ;arger car with a lower center of gravity and mass centered inside the 4 tires. It has 87hp more and alot more usable torque.

The car just looks BIG, but after reading the broshure a couple of times and realize what the engineers did with centering the weigh of the vehichle so it behaves like a mid-engine car is remarkable.




-Garrett

+1

EDIT: But Romo's right, it's 85kg heavier...

[Romo]

[QUOTE][The new M3 is 73kg heavier than the outgoing E46 M3/QUOTE]


egh, that is 85 kg.....................E46 M3 = 1570kg, E92 M3=1655kg.........

Both are EU empty weight, this means ( and I quote from the M3 information flyer); The car is 90% filled with fuell, 68 kg for drivers weight and 7 kg lugage are included.
So now we can end the discussion about weight once and forall.........................:-)

[devo]

Originally Posted by Garrett

The new M3 is 73kg heavier than the outgoing E46 M3. It's a ;arger car with a lower center of gravity and mass centered inside the 4 tires. It has 87hp more and alot more usable torque.

The car just looks BIG, but after reading the broshure a couple of times and realize what the engineers did with centering the weigh of the vehichle so it behaves like a mid-engine car is remarkable.




-Garrett

I agree 100%. After reading the same literature, I came to the conclusion and I am impressed. Now just add a sweet Big Red Brembo brake kit and some coilovers and you've got a really impressive car.

[sdiver68]

Thanks, Ruff and others, for posting a kinder, gentler version of what I've been posting for months.

[GregW / Oregon]

The new M3 is 73kg heavier than the outgoing E46 M3.

egh, that is 85 kg.....................E46 M3 = 1570kg, E92 M3=1655kg.........

Both are EU empty weight, this means ( and I quote from the M3 information flyer); The car is 90% filled with fuell, 68 kg for drivers weight and 7 kg lugage are included.
So now we can end the discussion about weight once and forall.........................:-)

Well, not quite -- something does still not compute for me. If you deduct the driver, luggage and 90% fuel you get 1,655 - 68 - 7 - 40 = 1,540 x 2.205 = 3,396 lb. BMWUSA showed the E46 M3 "unladen weight" at 3,414 lb. What gives?

[Romo]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Well, not quite -- something does still not compute for me. If you deduct the driver, luggage and 90% fuel you get 1,655 - 68 - 7 - 40 = 1,540 x 2.205 = 3,396 lb. BMWUSA showed the E46 M3 "unladen weight" at 3,414 lb. What gives?

Have no explanation for it; the numbers I used are the ones given by BMW it self.
Fact; the E92 M3 is +85 kg compared with the E46 M3 (Europe that is)

[carnuts3]

Originally Posted by lucid

I was trying to point out that the difference between a good and a great car can be a function of the competition as opposed to its intrinsic qualities. As a consumer, I am somewhat glad that the competition is finally here although that makes my decision process more complicated.

I agree. But over the years I've developed an emotional attachment to the BMW brand, M's in particular. It's tough to sit around and watch it be diminished somewhat by the competition. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to grow up and accept reality.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by carnuts3

I agree. But over the years I've developed an emotional attachment to the BMW brand, M's in particular. It's tough to sit around and watch it be diminished somewhat by the competition. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to grow up and accept reality.

I, too, am attached to BMW, having purchased my first new one (an Inka Orange 2002) in 1973. I think, however, BMW is not diminished by the competition, but by its own choices, particularly its overwrought designs led by Chris Bangle. I'd like to see what someone like Ian Callum could do.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

I, too, am attached to BMW, having purchased my first new one (an Inka Orange 2002) in 1973. I think, however, BMW is not diminished by the competition, but by its own choices, particularly its overwrought designs led by Chris Bangle. I'd like to see what someone like Ian Callum could do.

+1. I don't mean to start a Bangle bash here (although it would be entirely warranted), but he has single handedly driven the BMW aesthetic to the ground, and yet he personally claims he has revolutionarized not only the BMW lineup, but the entire auto industry--he sure is a humble servant to us all. That's why my emotional connection with the brand has weakened over the past years; I can't understand why the BMW management made the choices they did in this regard. I really am looking forward to the day when they decide to appoint a new design chief...

[carnuts3]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

I, too, am attached to BMW, having purchased my first new one (an Inka Orange 2002) in 1973. I think, however, BMW is not diminished by the competition, but by its own choices, particularly its overwrought designs led by Chris Bangle. I'd like to see what someone like Ian Callum could do.

You're right. BMW is the cause of its own undoing. In light of the competitive threat, you would think that they would up the ante. They certainly are capable, if they so chose.