BMW now flagging cars with tunes?

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by dparm

They have to prove the tune caused the failure. The "flag" does not instantly cancel the entire powertrain warranty, it is just an alert to techs who work on the car.

Most of them own Audis so by your own logic, they must be familiar with TD1 TSB.

APR Chip Voided Warranty
OK, now I have my own horror story.

2011 A4 2.0 with all of 19k miles. Got the APR two years ago after the 5k break in period.

Last week, out of nowhere, the car starts running rough mid-commute. Really rough idle, clear misfire in acceleration. CEL flashes, ECP comes on for a second.

I take it straight to the dealership, who diagnoses bad coil pack. Fixed, please come pick up. Only not fixed. So they try spark plugs. And fuel injectors.

Today they call me to tell me that one cylinder is pushing only 50psi in a compression test. Problem is a "dead cylinder", and my warranty came back from Audi as now void due to APR chip. The dealership estimates that the cost to repair will be between $5,000 and $15,000 depending on what they find when they dig into the cylinder and piston.

What? I called Audi Care and they outright stated that they completely void the powertrain warranty for any chip or program modification. Doesn't matter what the problem is. So here I am with an A4 that I have taken excellent care of with 19k miles and a dead cylinder, looking at thousands of dollars to repair. Again, 19k miles. I've never raced it, never even pushed it hard.

Does anyone have anything to help guide me? Or am I just completely screwed and will need to sell my car and never own an Audi or use an APR product again?

Thanks --

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/579722-APR-Chip-Voided-Warranty

Originally Posted by dparm

To clarify, Audi's TD1 flag didn't void a warranty. It was there to alert technicians that the car had been modified, and that they should proceed with caution.

I owned a B8 S4 (Stasis tuned) so I am familiar with it. I don't blame them for doing it -- why should Audi foot the bill because your tune blew an engine?

[PhillyNate]

The story above me is why I have done absolutely zero to my car other than aesthetics since I've owned it. God knows I've wanted to but too risky. My warranty is done in a few and I won't be doing dick 'til then.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I'm not one of those guys who think PUMA is cost prohibiting measure. I always thought it was an escalation tool -- meaning the way to take a problem and move it up the food chain. Is that incorrect?

So on the last part, if I understand you correctly, the dealers store all of the diagnostic sessions, but that data doesn't get sent to BMW. That would mean the black flag process that Mike went through (as I did as well) is still going to be a manual process where the dealer has to enter it into the BMW computer networks.

What about the "TC" thing you mentioned earlier. I've never heard of that. What's that used for?

Each session with the dealer is automatically transmitted to BMW on session completion. It's stored in BMW's internal database and only reviewed if there is reason to take a further look. This transmission contains fault codes in each module, mileage of each fault when it was stored, as well as other vehicle information.

As far as black flagging, this would have to be done by a regional rep in most cases. It's a manual process and is by no means automatic.

On the N54's, when there is an over boost fault, that is transmitted with the data and can be used in the future to indicate that the car may have been tuned.

If anyone thinks their vehicle might be black flagged (which is extremely rare, usually these "vehicle comments" on the car's record refer to physical hardware modifications observed), send me your VIN number and I can give you a definitive answer. My car, for instance, is flagged because a shop foreman observed me on the track. When I had issues with my brake holding in 2009, they said that it was because I overheated the rear brakes which caused the wheel bearings to leak, contaminating the ebrake shoes. It's pretty ridiculous IMO, but I've never had a warranty issue even with that on my car's record.

USM3: The person that made the Audi post is in a bad position there. On a boosted car, the increased propensity for engine problems is going to be substantially higher. Given the popularity of the turbo tuning market, it's no surprise that Audi has taken such a stance. It seems like they did try to help by checking the coil packs and plugs. Raising boost considerably increases combustion pressure far and above what NA software would ever do. It makes sense that they would want to crack down on these as claims for engine failure may likely be a direct result of the increased pressure, or another tuning related aspect. I've been in a few APR tuned cars and they are definitely quite faster than stock.

I hope this helps explain the process in more depth.

[s85e90]

Brake shoes?

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by s85e90

Brake shoes?

Park/ e-brake shoes.

They wound up replacing them, and I haven't had any further issues 40k miles later. I also saw the tech test it on a hill and he stalled my car three times trying to get up it.. But that's a different story all together.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Park/ e-brake shoes.

Lol. For a second I thought BMW was talking about rear drums? Nothing out of a dealer/tech mouth wolf surprise me.

[Edward]

Originally Posted by MFL

For fucks sake, I'm just going to call them and ask. Full fucking speculative retard in this biotch. Stand by for confirmation from the horses goddamn mouth.

*mutters shit about 5 pages deep in this shit and all we have is speculation and 3rd person accounts from dimwit SA's*

This guy knows how to wade through the knee deep BULLSH*T in this thread.

Will your engine blow up? Will the SA know you tuned? How about coding? Will a BMW tech know you sharted in your passenger seat while sleeping off a bender? Will they replace your motor if you banged a guy to test out the fold down seats? plus ski pass?

The answer is no one can tell you with absolute certainty that it will go for or against you.

This is why tuners won't back up their work with a warranty that says they will fight on your behalf for their work if BMW denies you, and also why they won't guarantee you anything in general besides the basic promise that in exchange for your money, they will code or tune your car.

Everyone's sitting here trying to throw all of BMW into one big capture bucket that acts the exact same way when in reality we all know that that is not the case.

You are dealing with far too many variables so the only thing you can do is weigh the risk benefit in your own head and determine if the risk is worth it to you.

Word of advice...the GTS DCT tune sucks. Your DCT doesn't engage quickly when doing three point turns? Learn how to come to a complete stop before changing between forward and reverse gears. Your transmission is just stopping you from burning it out because it is better at following protocol than you are.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Each session with the dealer is automatically transmitted to BMW on session completion. It's stored in BMW's internal database and only reviewed if there is reason to take a further look. This transmission contains fault codes in each module, mileage of each fault when it was stored, as well as other vehicle information.

As far as black flagging, this would have to be done by a regional rep in most cases. It's a manual process and is by no means automatic.

On the N54's, when there is an over boost fault, that is transmitted with the data and can be used in the future to indicate that the car may have been tuned.

If anyone thinks their vehicle might be black flagged (which is extremely rare, usually these "vehicle comments" on the car's record refer to physical hardware modifications observed), send me your VIN number and I can give you a definitive answer. My car, for instance, is flagged because a shop foreman observed me on the track. When I had issues with my brake holding in 2009, they said that it was because I overheated the rear brakes which caused the wheel bearings to leak, contaminating the ebrake shoes. It's pretty ridiculous IMO, but I've never had a warranty issue even with that on my car's record.

USM3: The person that made the Audi post is in a bad position there. On a boosted car, the increased propensity for engine problems is going to be substantially higher. Given the popularity of the turbo tuning market, it's no surprise that Audi has taken such a stance. It seems like they did try to help by checking the coil packs and plugs. Raising boost considerably increases combustion pressure far and above what NA software would ever do. It makes sense that they would want to crack down on these as claims for engine failure may likely be a direct result of the increased pressure, or another tuning related aspect. I've been in a few APR tuned cars and they are definitely quite faster than stock.

I hope this helps explain the process in more depth.

On an engine with rod bearing wear problems raising the rpm to 8,600 rpm is prolly just as bad as raising 2 or 3 psi of boost. And BMW has to trust that the high compression ratio NA S65 tuned for 93 oct by a third party will never be run hard on lower octane gas.
If BMW is going to have such a TSB about flagging tunes like Audi, I dont think they'll exclude one of their most abused car, the M3.
To Audi it doesnt matter if the tune caused the engine failure or not. They dont want you to temper with their ECU, period.

[M3-S65]

Originally Posted by M3Captain

Ditto

You can have the best relationship with your SA. And that will work well at the dealership level. As soon as something gets escalated dealer has nothing to do with it anymore.

Exactly, and if its a big deal...blown motor or transmission problem, (the only time it would matter to you) ..your probably screwed. I figured with the new M3s coming out, the reduced supply of S65s being made...it was only a matter of time that corporate would get smart and say: Lets start denying more claims, its costing us too much money, no more customer service gestures for people with modified cars... lets face it guys, were talking about a profit oriented company, with allot of lawyers, accountants and insurance clowns....the bean counters found a cost and now they found a possible way to contain it. Look at it from a business perspective and greed. Then it all makes sense...

[Edward]

This reduced supply of S65 argument is silly. Every OEM is mandated by the federal govt to continue maintaining a supply of any original part necessary to keep a car in operational form for 10 years after the sale of the car. Seeing as 2013 M3s exist, you're going to be able to get an S65 from BMW directly all the way up until 2023 and most likely a bit longer after that. By then, I will be LONG gone out of this car.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Edward

This reduced supply of S65 argument is silly. Every OEM is mandated by the federal govt to continue maintaining a supply of any original part necessary to keep a car in operational form for 10 years after the sale of the car. Seeing as 2013 M3s exist, you're going to be able to get an S65 from BMW directly all the way up until 2023 and most likely a bit longer after that. By then, I will be LONG gone out of this car.

I brought this up a long time ago. But since I was speaking from a much older experience, I didn't know if that same law was still in place and so I raised it as a question. From what you're saying, it is. Good to know.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

GTS software will be much more obvious than engine software as it has a different software number.

With engine software the reference numbers will match and it's doubtful anyone would look further.

Interestingly, Alex at Alpine has said that his GTS DCT tune doesn't raise any red flags with the BMW computers. He said it would recognize the DCT software as "the previous one on your car", and that it is reversible. Obviously they will visually notice the car starts in "D" instead of "S".

Are you saying you disagree? You are of course a competitor and some things are kept secret, so if you cannot reply, I understand. Is it possible for them to do something to mask the GTS software/present it as a US DCT program (i.e. fake the software version)?

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by dparm

Interestingly, Alex at Alpine has said that his GTS DCT tune doesn't raise any red flags with the BMW computers. He said it would recognize the DCT software as "the previous one on your car", and that it is reversible. Obviously they will visually notice the car starts in "D" instead of "S".

Are you saying you disagree? You are of course a competitor and some things are kept secret, so if you cannot reply, I understand. Is it possible for them to do something to mask the GTS software/present it as a US DCT program (i.e. fake the software version)?

Yes, I disagree.

You can fake (or not write) the UIF field, but you can still call for the version number in the software which will return whichever is loaded, regardless of the UIF being written or not. The software version of GTS software will differ from standard software, but in the case of a DME flash, it will be the same. I can tell you in about 15 seconds which version of DCT a car has.. But if you asked me to tell you if a car was tuned or not, this would require much more than that.