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      03-17-2018, 12:06 AM   #683
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I know right! I actually posted near the top of the thread, edited my post to remove myself. Wasn't seeing much traction back then!
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      03-17-2018, 12:08 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by kpewpew View Post
I know right! I actually posted near the top of the thread, edited my post to remove myself. Wasn't seeing much traction back then!
ohhhh right....now I remember seeing that.

Did you get it yet?
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      03-17-2018, 12:10 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
ohhhh right....now I remember seeing that.

Did you get it yet?
Not yet. I suspect it'll ship in the coming few days as they're probably not sitting in stock, have to be made.

BTW props for being so humble in your posts- was reading your discussion on tire width vs. height. Car is no joke, and your lap times are ridiculous. I'd like to ask what you do for work to fund all this craziness, but I'll respect your privacy.
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      03-17-2018, 12:40 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by kpewpew View Post
Not yet. I suspect it'll ship in the coming few days as they're probably not sitting in stock, have to be made.

BTW props for being so humble in your posts- was reading your discussion on tire width vs. height. Car is no joke, and your lap times are ridiculous. I'd like to ask what you do for work to fund all this craziness, but I'll respect your privacy.
I see. Please let us know when it arrives. Curious how long it takes. Pix would be nice too!

I have enjoyed my journey in Motorsport. There is literally no end to the learning. I love that. And I'm happy to share my experiences---good or bad. But when I walk into Minicorsa or EAS or Racewerkz, and I watch those guys work on cars, I feel like a total moron. Watching EAS do the rod bearings, or Minicorsa dig into the transmission, or seeing Racewerkz fabricating a cage....I'm like, yeah, I'm feeling pretty super fancy about myself after I installed my brake kit. Oh yeah!

As far as work, I am in the music industry. I'm a composer, and I have a small music company (Epic Score) that licenses music into entertainment industry projects like film trailers, tv commercials and game trailers. It's generally intense action and dramatic music---perfect for making you want to drive fast!! If you search YouTube with the company name, lots of our music pops up. Quite a bit of our music is also available on iTunes/Amazon/streaming services. Fans of epic-style music seem to like us which is cool. Music has been a lifelong pursuit (started piano at age 4) that I was able to turn into a business after working in the sound-mixing side of the entertainment industry for many years. People often wonder how music can be a business, but it really is a competitive business like any other business. However, my friends see me working from home and accuse me of being semi-retired!! I have such great friends.....alright alright twist my arm.....I do have great friends! (Of course, I have to say that. They're reading this post!)
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      03-17-2018, 01:23 PM   #687
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Hey man, I don't even swap my own pads. Just swapping wheels, cabin air filters, silly stuff like sidemarker swaps. I let the pros do the work, especially with the important stuff like brakes, suspension parts, and properly securing others.

Pretty cool niche you've carved out, and makes sense as I am guessing you're in LA. Awesome that it can provide a fun lifestyle as well. I was expecting to see something like film financier, management consultant, or medium sized business exec to pay for all those toys :P

In the spirit of sharing, I'm just a mid-level person most recently building partnerships at financial services tech startups. (fintech) Still working my way up as a pleb, but glad I can have fun out there and maybe run into you guys on track!
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      03-17-2018, 01:53 PM   #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
I see. Please let us know when it arrives. Curious how long it takes. Pix would be nice too!

I have enjoyed my journey in Motorsport. There is literally no end to the learning. I love that. And I'm happy to share my experiences---good or bad. But when I walk into Minicorsa or EAS or Racewerkz, and I watch those guys work on cars, I feel like a total moron. Watching EAS do the rod bearings, or Minicorsa dig into the transmission, or seeing Racewerkz fabricating a cage....I'm like, yeah, I'm feeling pretty super fancy about myself after I installed my brake kit. Oh yeah!

As far as work, I am in the music industry. I'm a composer, and I have a small music company (Epic Score) that licenses music into entertainment industry projects like film trailers, tv commercials and game trailers. It's generally intense action and dramatic music---perfect for making you want to drive fast!! If you search YouTube with the company name, lots of our music pops up. Quite a bit of our music is also available on iTunes/Amazon/streaming services. Fans of epic-style music seem to like us which is cool. Music has been a lifelong pursuit (started piano at age 4) that I was able to turn into a business after working in the sound-mixing side of the entertainment industry for many years. People often wonder how music can be a business, but it really is a competitive business like any other business. However, my friends see me working from home and accuse me of being semi-retired!! I have such great friends.....alright alright twist my arm.....I do have great friends! (Of course, I have to say that. They're reading this post!)
Very cool career! Doing music right is tough. Most mixes today are too "hot" (loudness wars). I played trumpet through college, but haven't kept up. I make up for it by spending inordinate amounts of money on hi-res music and the equipment to enjoy it with... This causes me to say things like: "I need a new balanced preamp!" I just can't decide if I want tubed or solid state. Oh the humanity... BTW: protect your hearing (including wearing earplugs in the car if your exhaust is super loud). Tinnitus is a bitch.
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      03-17-2018, 01:55 PM   #689
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that's like before jurassic period velociraptors!
I wouldn't have been fast enough to keep up with velociraptors.
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      03-17-2018, 02:10 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by admranger View Post
Very cool career! Doing music right is tough. Most mixes today are too "hot" (loudness wars). I played trumpet through college, but haven't kept up. I make up for it by spending inordinate amounts of money on hi-res music and the equipment to enjoy it with... This causes me to say things like: "I need a new balanced preamp!" I just can't decide if I want tubed or solid state. Oh the humanity... BTW: protect your hearing (including wearing earplugs in the car if your exhaust is super loud). Tinnitus is a bitch.
Yup, we have to play in the loudness wars too.

-ear plugs in the track car ----- check.
-ear plugs every time I use my impact gun ---- check!
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      03-19-2018, 11:56 PM   #691
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Well, the hemming and hawing is finally over. I finally committed to the Essex AP Racing 9449 rear kit. The front kit is so great that I just wanted to complete the set. And of course, again, Casey at Racewerkz just had the rear kit just sitting there ready to go. "Yup, just come on up anytime to check it out." Dang that Casey!!!! So yeah, this is what my car looks like now:



From a technical standpoint of overall braking power, I don't know where I'm going to be with the new kit versus the old kit. As much as I'd like it to be straight math of piston size/pad size/annulus height/rotor size, I don't think it's that easy because there is a variable I didn't anticipate----Weight.

Over the weekend, I did the install. Initially, I was just focused on getting the kit on the car and not worrying about anything else. The first installation instruction was to wash the new rotor to get the rust inhibitor off the rotors. So, I did that. Once the rotors were washed, I decided to disassemble the existing Stillen AP kit off the car. I pulled the Stillen rotor off the car-------and I'm holding the Stillen rotor/hat-----and I'm like, damn......this Stillen rotor/hat feels a LOT heavier than the Essex rotor/hat I just washed. So I pulled out my digital scale, and the weight difference between the two rotor/hat setups is interesting. Essex: 13 lbs 15oz vs Stillen: 22 lbs 5 oz. That is 8.38 lbs lighter per side! That's 16.75 lbs of rotating weight just on the rear wheels. And it's worth noting that the Stillen rotor is 75% worn too. So, a new one would be a bit heavier. I never thought the weight difference would be so dramatic. And there were still several other parts to consider.

I'm showing you the pictures of the rotors so you can see it for yourself:





So, then I started weighing everything.

The Essex caliper is lighter: 4 lbs 12 oz vs Stillen at 7 lbs 7 oz. 2.68 lbs lighter per side. 5.38 lbs total.

The Essex caliper bracket is lighter: 10oz vs Stillen at 1lb 12 oz. 1.125 lbs lighter per side. 2.25 lbs total.

The Essex pad shape is lighter: 13 oz vs Stillen at 1 lb 3 oz . 0.375 oz lighter per side. 0.75 lbs total.

That means just the rear Essex kit is a total of 25.13 lbs lighter (12.56 lbs per side) than the Stillen AP kit. All the weight is unsprung weight, with 16.75 lbs being rotatiing mass, and 8.38 lbs being non-rotating. I'm hoping that much weight loss on the hub will have a noticeable impact on multiple things---braking, acceleration and damper movement.

Initially, while considering the rear kit, my main focus was on the fact that the Essex rotor is 1.5cm smaller than the Stillen rotor, and the pad shape on the Essex is smaller. (I don't know how the piston diameters compare between the two. I know that the pistons diameters are the exact same for all six pistons when comparing the front Stillen CP5555 and the Essex 9668.) Talking with Andie from Cobalt Friction, we decided to increase the torque in the rear pads, so I ordered XR2. (Used to be XR3). Here are the two pad shapes. Essex on top, Stllen on botton.



Anyway, I am curious to drive this new setup. hmmmm there is Auto Club this weekend with Speed District....But there's a GTA time attack Buttonwillow next weekend also with Speed District! Or there's a Bimmer Challenge at Big Willow that same weekend with Speed Ventures!

Last edited by dogbone; 03-20-2018 at 06:15 AM..
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      03-20-2018, 12:05 AM   #692
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atta boy!
i'm interested in seeing if this rear kit has as noticeable of an impact as the front did.
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      03-20-2018, 05:55 AM   #693
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Isn't the Stillen kit with the rear parking brake and the Essex kit is without? That would explain some of the difference in weight of the rotors.
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      03-20-2018, 07:00 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
atta boy!
i'm interested in seeing if this rear kit has as noticeable of an impact as the front did.
Back in 2012, the AP kit that I bought was a used one. And it's a bit of an odd story, but the fronts and rears of that kit came to me separately. The fronts came first, and then the rears came a couple months later (because the seller was having them refurbished by AP in England). So, I installed them separately and ran the fronts on track several times before the rears arrived. Driving the front AP kit for the first time on track was literally an "Ah ha" moment---the 6 pistons, race pads, SRF all combined into an awesome experience. Plus they looked awesome too! haha!

Once the rears were installed, I felt that the difference versus OEM was welcome, but subtle. The car squatted better during hard braking, but it wasn't a night and day experience like the front AP vs OEM.

My first inclination would be to say that the Essex rears will be a subtle change because I already had AP's on the car. But I got surprised by the front Essex kit.

And when considering the rears, I was only thinking about braking power, and not considering that there could be a significant weight difference that could be enough to affect other things like acceleration or the suspension. The weight difference simply caught me by surprise. I just looked at the Essex website, and their claim is that the 9449 kit saves 17 lbs from the OEM rear of the car. So, if I just saved 25 lbs over the Stillen AP kit, I guess that means the Stillen AP kit was actually 8 lbs heavier than stock? hehe ok. The rear caliper was quite a bit larger than OEM, and maybe the rotor was bigger/thicker or something? Anyway, that's an interesting tidbit.

So, now I'm just gonna say----we'll see!
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      03-20-2018, 07:54 AM   #695
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dogbone, what is the max temp you've seen in the DCT?
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      03-20-2018, 09:00 AM   #696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorH View Post
Isn't the Stillen kit with the rear parking brake and the Essex kit is without? That would explain some of the difference in weight of the rotors.
The parking brake still works. I wondered about that too.

You can't see the backside of the hat in any of the pictures on the Essex site, but the hat is not flat. It does have the parking brake drum. When you view the hat from the front, it just looks flat, but it's not. Perhaps I can get a picture of it soon.

I live on a hill, so the parking brake is quite useful to me when putting the car in the trailer. After the install, I drove the car into the trailer, left the engine running, put the car in neutral, pulled the parking brake, and let go of the brake pedal-----and----the car held in place. hehe I was ready to jump back on that brake pedal though!!!!

One other interesting note about the rear hat----it does not have the two holes for the set-screws to attach the rotor to the hub. At first, I wondered if that was a mistake or something, but on the Essex website, you can see that the hat only has 5 holes for the lug nuts and that's it. The rotor just sits there loose until you put the wheel on and torque down the lug nuts. So many surprises on this rear kit!!

Ultimately, the rear Essex hat is aluminum and the Stillen one is steel. The Essex rotor is smaller in overall diameter. And it has a narrower annulus, not only because it's smaller but because the Essex hat is a larger diameter than the Stillen one. All these things contribute to the Essex rotor/hat combo being markedly lighter. I did a rough resizing of the two pictures of the rotors. It's not a science project but I think it gets the point across that the mounting hardware sits further out towards the rotor edge than the Stillen rotor. And again, the Essex rotor is 340mm and the Stillen rotor is 355mm.



Edit: I had the idea to overlap the two images and show each half stitched together. Perhaps this illustrates it a bit better? Again, not a science project, and is not accurate to the exact mm because the two pictures were taken from slightly different angles, but it's enough to get the point across.


Last edited by dogbone; 03-20-2018 at 06:39 PM..
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      03-20-2018, 09:02 AM   #697
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
dogbone, what is the max temp you've seen in the DCT?
I can't remember.....if I have some time I'll go back and look at my videos. The DCT temps were recorded by the GoPro looking at the gauges.
Are you interested in the temp of the hot fluid exiting the trans? Or the cooled fluid entering the trans? I had gauges on both sides.

Last edited by dogbone; 03-20-2018 at 07:24 PM..
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      03-20-2018, 09:11 AM   #698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
I can't remember.....if I have some time I'll go back and look at my videos. The DCT temps were recorded but he GoPro looking at the gauges.

Are you interested in the temp of the hot fluid exiting the trans? Or the cooled fluid entering the trans? I had gauges on both sides.
The hotter side

I'm looking up the data sheet on the loctite 574... over 150C (302) it basically dies. 212F would be much better for it
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      03-20-2018, 12:19 PM   #699
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I really appreciate your posts dogbone. Lot's of information. It's fun to geek out on the details.
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      03-20-2018, 03:29 PM   #700
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Dogbone,
Thanks for sharing your experience and data on the brakes, as well as all of the little details of our kits! Many of our customers don't realize the lengths we go to during the design process. We don't just pull some calipers and discs out of a bin and slap them on a particular car. There is a great deal of thought that goes into them, and the same goes for the design of the individual components. In this case, the front and rear discs for all of our e92 kits were designed hand-in-hand with AP Racing to our specification. They aren't off-the-shelf parts, and they can't be found anywhere else in the world. You won't even find them on the AP Racing website or in their catalog.

Here are some pics I recently posted on Rennlist that show some design work for our 4-wheel brake kit for the 991 GT3:




On the e9x chassis, our 340x28mm disc has proven plenty durable despite their extremely low weight. We frankly don't see that many orders for spare rear discs! They tend to last quite a while, and you can pound out a 24 hour race with them no problem (actually, probably a couple races). A 355x32mm is overkill on this platform, and the only reason we see them is because the manufacturer likely didn't have anything smaller in their arsenal that fit properly. It's either that, or they were just going for bling. For reference, the fastest Le Mans-winning cars in IMSA only use a 355mm rear disc in many cases! Most of these cars are far more abusive on the front brakes compared to the rear, and you don't need a ton of disc mass in the back. It's a great opportunity to shed valuable unsprung weight.

On some of the newer chassis like the F80/F82/F87, C7 vette, Gen. 6 Camaro, etc. the factory parking brakes are bigger, which is why we use a larger 365x30 mm disc. The ID of our 340mm disc won't clear them, or we'd likely use it.

Our rear kit maintains full parking brake capability, and works great with the aluminum hat. It's not designed for rally-style lever yanking while in motion, but it will hold the car in place in the trailer or paddock without issue.

We actually shot a video on our Competition Kit design process. I'm the guy on the right in the video, and you can probably tell that I most definitely geek out over the details. My friends who have seen our videos are like, "Dude, you get genuinely excited about that stuff, don't you?" Afterwards they probably tell their wives, "That guy has issues." Lol.

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      03-20-2018, 11:49 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
dogbone, what is the max temp you've seen in the DCT?
Ok, I've scrolled through a bunch of videos looking at the DCT temp gauges. On the hot side, the hottest I could find was 245ºF. I only found 1 instance above 240ºF. And I believe that was with the stock DCT cooler. In general, most everything else is under 230ºF, especially with the do88 cooler on there.

Typically, I don't run very long sessions because if I've been going for a fast lap time/personal best/time attack lap, the car can only do 3 of those kinds of hot laps when the weather is cool and 2 hot laps when it's hot out. If I back off and run a few seconds slower, the car can run much longer. Anyway, I mention this because maybe if someone always goes out and runs 30 minutes hot, perhaps they can build up more heat than me. But even in my short sessions, I'm generating some solid heat with a supercharger, slicks, aero, diff, suspension, etc.

Hope that helps.
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      03-21-2018, 12:01 AM   #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jritt@essex View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience and data on the brakes, as well as all of the little details of our kits!
Hi Jeff.

You know----watching that video----I was sitting there staring at that rotor you kept handling. I was convinced that darn thing was going to fall over!!! I couldn't concentrate on what you were saying!! hahaha

Anyway, I'm glad to hear you say that the parking brake is supposed to work. I was very happy when the car held in place after I pulled the lever. Do you happen to have a picture of the backside of the rear rotor that shows the parking brake drum that you can post?

Looking forward to trying the new kit out!
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      03-21-2018, 12:39 AM   #703
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I really appreciate your posts dogbone. Lot's of information. It's fun to geek out on the details.
I'm glad that others are willing to dive into the smaller details of all this stuff.

People have been very gracious and I really appreciate it. When I was at Laguna a couple weeks ago, I was walking past an E90 M3, and the owner looked at me and said, "are you dogbone?" hehe It's always fascinating to hear the name "dogbone" spoken aloud by a stranger. Anyway, he was very nice and knew of this thread and said he learned from it. I love the community aspect of that.

Right now is prime season for tracking here in CA, so I've been dealing with the car quite frequently and I've been posting a fair amount. In a couple months, it will be getting hot, and I will be getting super busy with a number of other things. I've really enjoyed the Winter season this year. Last Winter, it rained a lot and kept me away, so it's been fun to be able to go out more this year.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
Hi Jeff.

You know----watching that video----I was sitting there staring at that rotor you kept handling. I was convinced that darn thing was going to fall over!!! I couldn't concentrate on what you were saying!! hahaha

Anyway, I'm glad to hear you say that the parking brake is supposed to work. I was very happy when the car held in place after I pulled the lever. Do you happen to have a picture of the backside of the rear rotor that shows the parking brake drum that you can post?

Looking forward to trying the new kit out!
Hahah...I think I was waiting for that disc to fall on my toes as well! I know I caught it at least once in the vid.

I don't have a pic of the exact rear hat from the e92 M3, but here's one that is very similar on the same 340x28mm disc that shows what you're talking about:

Appreciate 0
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