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      05-05-2017, 03:04 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_love_cars View Post
The first question is - are you wealthy? Can you legitimately afford to take a car like the M3 and just shove it to the side, sit on it, all on an enormous gamble that it will be worth maybe even double what it is now in 15-20 years? What I really mean is - are you wealthy enough that you don't need to really value other investments that will give you a more guaranteed rate of return in a shorter timespan? If you answered no, then this discussion is moot just like all the other ones where people stumbled onto their M3 as a summer daily/weekend car but aren't truly wealthy, and now want to think about the grandiose possibilities of stabling the car for years and years and one day having some expensive cool collector item.

No offense to anyone of course - we're all looking for ways to stay ahead of the game in this day and age, financially.

The vast majority of cars in recent memory that have skyrocketed in price to the point that it's actually worth it at all to not put miles on it and hang on to it are almost ALL iconic. The E9x M3 is not iconic in any way to the level that other cars like the Acura NSX, E30 M3, BMW 2002, etc. were. Just because it's the last of the great NA powerbands in a V8 doesn't mean it's anywhere near the status of E30 M3 because the E30 M3 literally took the motorsport world as a whole, by storm. The 2002 literally set the stage for the BMW 3-series to take a foothold. The Acura NSX was the true Japanese-made Italian exotic fighter of its era.

It's a shitty investment, objectively speaking, to hold onto an E90 M3 and not put miles on it to keep it pristine. In 10-20 years you may see the value go to 50-60k but you're never going to see multiplier-level values like some of these other truly classic cars. Once you factor inflation in, your investment return is.....not actually that great. This is the same reason why I wouldn't buy a 1-series M and just hold onto it - I'd drive the hell out of it. It's low-production numbers mean that it will command a bit of a premium to the right enthusiasts as we have seen them stable in the $55-60k range for 5 years now, but there's nothing about that car that changes the game or is really iconic. It will always command a premium but it isn't realistic to see the values skyrocketing.

History has proven that ridiculously inflated prices for cars that become "collectible" usually have something truly impactful about them to the automotive world that isn't fully realized until 30 years later, when they become worth a ton of money.

The E9x M3 doesn't deliver on any of that. It's just an awesome car and that's where the buck stops.

I buy real estate with good cap rates when I wake up and say "i want another investment". I drive the hell out of all my cars because I bought them for enjoyment. I don't have a warehouse somewhere with a 7 figure budget to just drop on cars and hold onto them in the hopes they will be collectible someday.

TLDR = stop wondering and go take some rips in your V8
So what you are saying then is that you would advise me against removing my battery, draining all the fluids, putting the car on jacks, and wrapping it in bubble wraps for the next fifteen years waiting for it to appreciate?
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      05-05-2017, 09:30 PM   #24
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I think there are not yet seen factors that can make all e9x M3s extremely sought after, i will get to it . But First of all i don't believe electric is the future, hybrid engines -yes as a complementary 2nd engine to boost performance but not as a fully fledged electric car like the infamous Tesla because stored electrical charge (battery) always falls behind gasoline in energy per mass stored and to make matters worse, pumping liquid gasoline is efficient and fast but repleneshing a battery's charge is slow and inefficient. Electrical engines will only come to dominance after nuclear energy has been mastered for the consumer market, not anytime in another thousand years.
But back to the E9xM3 i think that if turbo technology continues to improve and is better harnessed through real time DSP, maybe in 5-10 year mating a futuristic turbo to the S65 may become relatively straightfoward . Several shops have tried sofar but no one produced a reliable kit. Then the M3 will have a significant advantage of one of the best, if not the best high revving V8 engine with an extremely programmable turbo kit. People will go crazy and will hunt for M3 just to make that turbo conversion. Typical turbo engines rely on boost and lack the design and extra cost to make it high revving. They don't need to but if high revving + turbo can be reliably be had and parameterized over a huge broad rev range, people that tend to set trends in sportscar will go nuts for it.
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      05-05-2017, 09:46 PM   #25
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i don't know if i'd say "collector," but definitely more desirable. think of a slick-top, no-option, zcp, manual e46 M...
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      05-06-2017, 02:07 AM   #26
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This version of the M3 has some potential to become a collectors item, despite what many on here are saying.

It's the last NA car BMW made, and likely ever will make again. It's the only M3 with a V8, and the engine is unique to this car, something that's extremely cost prohibitive in today's world. It's the last you can buy without navigation or iDrive, and the last where a manual transmission was not a novelty to purchase.

Something else not mentioned is nostalgia, which is what drives the classic car market. It's what caused muscle cars to blow up in value, and as 90s kids come of age, is causing a Supra to be worth 90k in some places. Once kids that idolized this M3 grow up, prices may balloon for a good example.

Cars are generally not good investments, and I'm not saying this M will make you rich, but there are many factors in its favor.
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      05-06-2017, 03:33 AM   #27
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So I've just come back from the future...2067...and lo and behold as some on here predicted, the 2011 e90 m3 with ZCP was a true collectors car. The DCT was the only one sought out because in 2037, MT was obsolete. Cars of the early century were prized because 2067 vehicles were machine driven by robots and could fly and go in the water as well. The DCT was prized due to it's ability to simulate current vehicles while reminding the elderly of shifting gears without needing a third pedal, something no one in 2067 knew how to do.
I'm thinking many of you may still be here in fifty years, and if you heed this advice, you could be very wealthy by stashing a few e90 m3's with DCT and ZCP....
Just Sayin is all....
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      05-06-2017, 06:56 AM   #28
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Personally I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. Look at the American muscle cars and overall vehicles from the 50's through 70's. Convertibles are typically valued much higher than coupes and coupes realizing a higher premium than saloons. I would like to see that start happening again with the E9x M3 vehicles.
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      05-06-2017, 02:38 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOF-M3
Personally I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. Look at the American muscle cars and overall vehicles from the 50's through 70's. Convertibles are typically valued much higher than coupes and coupes realizing a higher premium than saloons. I would like to see that start happening again with the E9x M3 vehicles.
Nice try bro! Saloons are the way to go...simply find a garage queen with a sunroof and voila, you can have the best of both worlds! I mean why torture yourself on this forum and out in the real world with a vert in the distorted illusion that it will be collectible in 50 years?
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      05-06-2017, 02:55 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by elvism View Post
be a collectors car say 3-5 years from now? 1220 were made with the competition package. The competition package was only offered for 1 year only in the E90. It is also the last year of the E90. Thoughts??
Don't think so. Sorry. You were forced to take the electronic suspension with competition package which was a turnoff for me. In some tests it actually performed worse than stock M3 on 18" wheels. The wheels are lovely but they are heavy and you can buy a brand new set $2100. I am still hoping to pick up a nice e90 M3 sedan one day but for me, for it to be special it would be a base E90 M3 sedan with no sunroof, no nav, 18" wheels with fixed suspension and speed cloth seats and 6MT. That configuration is actually much more rare than competition package. The next rarest and most desirable for me would be the same thing with no other option other than competition package but I would take the electronic suspension out and that would cost money and time.

If the competition package would've been truly a competition package with some lighter forged 18" wheels and some real weight savings and more torque, then that would be truly special.

Still, you have a lovely, desirable car. Enjoy it. It sounds amazing like few cars sound like anymore.

When I go to cars and coffee with my son and an e90 or 5.0 mustang drive by, I tell my son....that's what cars should sound like!
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      05-06-2017, 03:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveskiing View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOF-M3
Personally I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. Look at the American muscle cars and overall vehicles from the 50's through 70's. Convertibles are typically valued much higher than coupes and coupes realizing a higher premium than saloons. I would like to see that start happening again with the E9x M3 vehicles.
Nice try bro! Saloons are the way to go...simply find a garage queen with a sunroof and voila, you can have the best of both worlds! I mean why torture yourself on this forum and out in the real world with a vert in the distorted illusion that it will be collectible in 50 years?
Yea I'm just trying to get everyone on here to believe E93's really are desirable. Apparently it has not been working. Hell even I don't believe it. Grrrrr
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      05-06-2017, 03:43 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOF-M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by loveskiing View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOF-M3
Personally I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. Look at the American muscle cars and overall vehicles from the 50's through 70's. Convertibles are typically valued much higher than coupes and coupes realizing a higher premium than saloons. I would like to see that start happening again with the E9x M3 vehicles.
Nice try bro! Saloons are the way to go...simply find a garage queen with a sunroof and voila, you can have the best of both worlds! I mean why torture yourself on this forum and out in the real world with a vert in the distorted illusion that it will be collectible in 50 years?
Yea I'm just trying to get everyone on here to believe E93's really are desirable. Apparently it has not been working. Hell even I don't believe it. Grrrrr
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      05-06-2017, 05:38 PM   #33
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:[/QUOTE]


I was inches from convincing everyone that the E93 is a future collector car until you laughed at me!!! Curses loveskiing!! Or were you perhaps laughing with me? In that case I am taking reasonable offers for my highly COLLECTIBLE 2011 E93 M3 with the following highly DESIRABLE features that include but are not limited to: Space gray ext, black Novillo int, DCT, Nav, AUTOMATIC roof and yep it's just the push of a button, kinda like the M button but it's a large CM button on the console and the CM stands for CHICK MAGNET because when that top comes down you better not be wearing cologne or beware the Chick magnet consequences (if my girl reads this I'm a dead man). And... I'll even throw in the highly collectible ZCP package that came as a one time only option for this vehicle. Ok, I'll say anything to get out of this thing without losing my shirt.
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      05-07-2017, 02:43 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Don't think so. Sorry. You were forced to take the electronic suspension with competition package which was a turnoff for me. In some tests it actually performed worse than stock M3 on 18" wheels.
Where did you see these tests?
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      05-07-2017, 03:12 PM   #35
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Where did you see these tests?
Car and Driver. Just looked for them online but can't find it. I threw away my CD issues after I got 1M. The first drive of CSP said basically wheels were glorious but suspension to harsh and would provide some slight handling only on glass circuits and anything less than perfect, the original 18" version which had lighter wheels kept its composure better.

The problem is no one ever compared fixed 18" wheel version with CSP. Many reviewed EDC units with 220 19" wheels which is basically the same thing. Someone needs to review the same year 2010 M3 MT with 18" no option, no sunroof vs. 2010 ZCP MT no option. What you will find is that on less perfect roads and tracks the regular base M3 is just as quick and possibly even quicker while giving you a better overall ride.

Most reviewers of ZCP, including Chris Harris said the stiffest setting was too harsh and not very useful.

If someone has the CD issue, I think it was 2010.

I found this online too:
http://www.carenthusiast.com/reviews...n+Package.html

Here is video of 2008 Base M3 Chasing down CZP M3. Again, not sure of transmission, but says both stock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWy9-WxoWOQ
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Last edited by nachob; 05-07-2017 at 03:22 PM..
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      05-08-2017, 12:39 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Car and Driver. Just looked for them online but can't find it. I threw away my CD issues after I got 1M. The first drive of CSP said basically wheels were glorious but suspension to harsh and would provide some slight handling only on glass circuits and anything less than perfect, the original 18" version which had lighter wheels kept its composure better.

The problem is no one ever compared fixed 18" wheel version with CSP. Many reviewed EDC units with 220 19" wheels which is basically the same thing. Someone needs to review the same year 2010 M3 MT with 18" no option, no sunroof vs. 2010 ZCP MT no option. What you will find is that on less perfect roads and tracks the regular base M3 is just as quick and possibly even quicker while giving you a better overall ride.

Most reviewers of ZCP, including Chris Harris said the stiffest setting was too harsh and not very useful.

If someone has the CD issue, I think it was 2010.

I found this online too:
http://www.carenthusiast.com/reviews...n+Package.html

Here is video of 2008 Base M3 Chasing down CZP M3. Again, not sure of transmission, but says both stock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWy9-WxoWOQ
So there's really no tests where it performed worse as you said. If anything, the Sport setting is too stiff for most situations (which I'd agree with, although on a very smooth track it would probably help). You still have two other settings, and they are still dynamic.

I doubt any of the stock suspension setups makes a major difference in performance, but to say the ZCP setup did worse in tests isn't really accurate. And I'm pretty sure people have agreed that the Comfort mode with EDC is more livable that the standard fixed dampers.
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      05-08-2017, 01:58 AM   #37
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to the gentlemen pretending the e93 is going to be desirable in the future. thanks for the chuckle.

and yes, edc is marginally better on track and it is heavily dependent on track surface. as i developed as a driver, i saw my lap times drop when i started using comfort at the bumpy tracks.
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      05-08-2017, 10:27 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larsim View Post
So what you are saying then is that you would advise me against removing my battery, draining all the fluids, putting the car on jacks, and wrapping it in bubble wraps for the next fifteen years waiting for it to appreciate?
No I remember from several autocrosses here in San Diego and hearing from friends at Streets of Willow that base M3 with was faster than ZCP. I'm sure there are some tracks where the extra rubber and was faster too. The point I made was that ZCP was not some great thing other than the cool wheels that could pick up any day. In some tracks it was quicker on 18s, probably if it's a bumpy track, on some it made no difference on some it was a little quicker.

You also state that EDC is more livable, that is probably true if you only run 19" tires. The original M3 on 18s with fixed suspension was plenty liveable. The problem is when you go 19 for looks that things fall apart and you have to resort to gadgetry to make up for little sidewall.

Racecars have sidewalls. Period. You can run a firmer suspension setup and the sidewall absorbs road imperfections.

We are talking about a COMPETITION package. Not daily living package. So the "competition package" is not actually what it says it is.

So again, you asked for opinions, let me re-state them in as much as we can all agree.

1. The competition package was not an awesome improvement...it was nice.
2. The best part was the cool wheels. Everyone loves them. I have them on my car.
3. To be a collectible, the competition package would have to do something really cool, like the bat wing on the old CS coupes.
4. A competition package can be ruined if the car is loaded. Basically negates the competition aspect if you bloat it. A manual seat, MT, no sunroof car with competition package package is more desireable to those of us that pay collectible money than a loaded, extended leather, sunroof e90 with competition package and auto transmission.
5. The truly rare unicorn cars are the no option, manual seat, speed cloth, no sunroof, no nav, no EDC, manly cars which are the type of cars that you would truly want to take to a competition.

As far as test, there are lap times out there but I didn't put them in because they didn't list configurations so I don't have the proof on my or the time to keep looking for it. So that's fine. We'll just leave it to the opinion you asked for and Competition Pkg by itself will not constitute a collectible M3. Neither will a loaded automatic M3s. They are a dime a dozen. The desireable M3s of the future, the ones that I will put my hard earned money on will be lightweight, no sunroof, no iDrive, MT unicorns.
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      05-08-2017, 01:15 PM   #39
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Looks like I'm going to sit on my 2011.75 m3 comp 6-speed with slicktop and manual seats
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      05-08-2017, 01:20 PM   #40
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I think 3-5 years may be too soon to pin hopes on substantial appreciation. By the late 2020s though I'd expect ANY naturally aspirated internal combustion engine with a manual transmission to be rare. But the E9X will still have to beat out its smaller older sibling, the E46.

I'd expect the CSL and GTS to be off the charts, but who knows?
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      05-08-2017, 01:53 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hendoe View Post
Looks like I'm going to sit on my 2011.75 m3 comp 6-speed with slicktop and manual seats
Right on! While I'll sit on my fully loaded incl nav, moon roof, individual stereo and all the goodies adding all that weight and obsolete technology...
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      05-08-2017, 03:38 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
no b/c it's not materially different than any other base E9X M3. You can retrofit any part of the ZCP package into any M3 including the suspension software.

Stop dreaming and start driving. /thread
How do I get that suspension software?
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      05-08-2017, 04:12 PM   #43
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How do I get that suspension software?
I don't know, but try BPM or anyone who tunes M3s and can access the DME.

The major difference is that on the Sport setting, it is now a dynamic dampening instead of linear. You might feel the difference when you drive a real lumpy highway section at high speeds and you feel your rebound a bit more softer.
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      05-08-2017, 07:39 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
No I remember from several autocrosses here in San Diego and hearing from friends at Streets of Willow that base M3 with was faster than ZCP. I'm sure there are some tracks where the extra rubber and was faster too. The point I made was that ZCP was not some great thing other than the cool wheels that could pick up any day. In some tracks it was quicker on 18s, probably if it's a bumpy track, on some it made no difference on some it was a little quicker.

You also state that EDC is more livable, that is probably true if you only run 19" tires. The original M3 on 18s with fixed suspension was plenty liveable. The problem is when you go 19 for looks that things fall apart and you have to resort to gadgetry to make up for little sidewall.

Racecars have sidewalls. Period. You can run a firmer suspension setup and the sidewall absorbs road imperfections.

We are talking about a COMPETITION package. Not daily living package. So the "competition package" is not actually what it says it is.

So again, you asked for opinions, let me re-state them in as much as we can all agree.

1. The competition package was not an awesome improvement...it was nice.
2. The best part was the cool wheels. Everyone loves them. I have them on my car.
3. To be a collectible, the competition package would have to do something really cool, like the bat wing on the old CS coupes.
4. A competition package can be ruined if the car is loaded. Basically negates the competition aspect if you bloat it. A manual seat, MT, no sunroof car with competition package package is more desireable to those of us that pay collectible money than a loaded, extended leather, sunroof e90 with competition package and auto transmission.
5. The truly rare unicorn cars are the no option, manual seat, speed cloth, no sunroof, no nav, no EDC, manly cars which are the type of cars that you would truly want to take to a competition.

As far as test, there are lap times out there but I didn't put them in because they didn't list configurations so I don't have the proof on my or the time to keep looking for it. So that's fine. We'll just leave it to the opinion you asked for and Competition Pkg by itself will not constitute a collectible M3. Neither will a loaded automatic M3s. They are a dime a dozen. The desireable M3s of the future, the ones that I will put my hard earned money on will be lightweight, no sunroof, no iDrive, MT unicorns.
i'll agree, the comp pack is a bit deceptive. it was a must-have for me. i wanted the wheels, i wanted the edc, and the fun of changing edc with mdm. and you do feel a difference on the street when you're driving along and feel like screwing around. you hit that M button and the car's attitude changes. its great.
here is the reality- comp pack isn't necessarily better. looking back a generation and forward a generation gives the same perspective, its not much better. to the 95% of M drivers that don't track, they feel like they got a better performing car. i think the track guys have figured out that isn't quite the case.
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