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KEEP M3POST ALIVE BY DOING YOUR TIRERACK SHOPPING FROM THIS BANNER LINK! |
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05-18-2012, 10:28 AM | #67 | |
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05-18-2012, 10:33 AM | #68 | |
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05-18-2012, 10:33 AM | #69 |
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This thread is a perfect storm of misinformation. Wild speculation, passing on of rumors, advice against running spacers for no reason. Crazy. People need to be more responsible with what they post.
I think the TMS spacers are the best on the market also personally. However, I would not expect the MS to fail like this. As far as analyzing the damage - pretty hard at this point. As soon as one of the bolts goes, at the track no less, the damage is going to happen very quickly to that spacer. |
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05-18-2012, 10:37 AM | #70 |
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No misinformation here..if OP wants to show close up of the bolts we can put this to rest..But please explain what you feel happend here..because you post contains no information
Again brand of spacer is irrelevant.. |
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05-18-2012, 10:58 AM | #71 | ||||||
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All 5 bolts broke and the spacer is mangled, and you think you are going to reconstruct exactly what happened? Seems very difficult to me. One bolt could have been overtorqued and stretched, then broken, then the others could have broken. A bolt could have been undertorqued and backed out...the bolts could be defective. Spacer could have been defective. I know the OP is confident that he did everything right, and I believe him, but everyone makes mistakes sometimes. Not saying he did, but just saying the variables here are rather large. |
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05-18-2012, 11:07 AM | #72 |
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There should be no movement even if not torqued correctly, but torqued at all.
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05-18-2012, 11:10 AM | #73 |
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05-18-2012, 11:12 AM | #74 | |
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05-18-2012, 11:14 AM | #75 | |
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First, the hub extenders are not a load bearing surface. I've ran 8mm spacers where it basically left a wheel with a chamfered hub bolted onto the a wheel without touching the OEM hub nub (due to necessity). It doesn't "shear off" the bolts if you tighten them right. Once tightened and bolted to 88ft-lbs, the conical seat surface against the wheel are the load bearing surfaces, and the force supplied is the clamping force between the bolt and the tensile strength of the bolt. The PROBLEM I faced with the 8mm spacer sans hub, is that if you don't center the wheel PERFECTLY then there's a ton of vibration (the spacer is installed on the front wheel) at any speed above 25mph. The vibration, in fact, had sheared a set of 15 year old bolts off. It's the IMPROPER INSTALLATION of the bolts that resulted in shearing off the bolts though, and it would have happened with studs. Would have sheared the studs right off. I've learned, that ANYTIME you run spacers, you need to take absolute care on the installation of the lug bolts and lug nuts. They need to be tightened in a star pattern, with 30% of the require torque (~25 ft-lbs) first in the star pattern, then 65 ft-lbs, then 88 ft-lbs. You can't just gun it with a torque stick or go crazy with an impact wrench otherwise you'll introduce uneven load onto the bolt, or allow the wheel to be installed slightly off-center and not completely flush with the hub face. Again, ask me how I know. By tightening in a star pattern in 3-4 steps, you eliminate that possibility and force the wheel to sit flush with the surface of the hub. Again, anyone claiming the little hub extenders are load bearing surfaces...It is simply not true. The damage on the "hub" nub portion of the spacer is almost guaranteed to have come from AFTER the bolts had broken off. The hub nubs are strictly to center the hub for tightening with the fastener, the FACE of the hub bears the load force, provided by the clamping force of the fasteners. Spacer or fastener failure, which one comes first, is impossible to ascertain at this point. What probably CAN be ascertained, is that one lead to the other (either the bolts broke resulting in the spacer failure, or something in the spacer design resulted in the fastener breaking). There's really only TWO scenarios here. 1) Inferior fasteners (grade 8.8 or lower?) stretched enough to allow some play in the wheel, and the slight movement of the wheel resulted in the stretched bolt breaking off, and as the bolts broke off, the weight of the wheel all of a sudden dropped on the hub nub and broke the spacer. 2) Improper design of the spacers resulted in the surface of the wheel not sitting completely flush with the surface of the spacer or hub face, resulting in slight movement of the wheel/spacer against the hub, and this small movement acted like a giant scissor and cut the bolts, resulting in complete failure. Both scenario would have SOME symptoms before the failure, especially if the spacer is installed in the FRONT. Vibration through the wheel would be transmitted through the chassis or the steering wheel. Since the failure happened on the wheels installed in the rear, it is a lot harder to predict. When my bolt broke on my old trusty E30 318is, it happened as I was making a right hand turn, and it happened quickly with very little warning (this happened on the rear wheel). Basically, I heard some rumbling noise from the back for about half a block, thinking my bearings are on its way out, made the right hand turn and BAM! Wheel fell off of the car. Sheared one bolt, the rest backed out. All the surviving bolts has "stretch marks" leading me to believe the failure was from the 15+ year old lug bolts, not from the use of the spacers. As for the age old wisdom of whether or not to run spacers at the track, I'm of the opinion that adding spacers basically adds another potential component for failure. The pros must be weighted against the cons, if you can't clear your strut without a spacer to run 275mm tires up front, then spacers are a necessary risk. If you can find the proper offset wheel (and with Apex offering width of just about every kind with BMW offsets of every kind, there's no excuse not to find a set of wheels with the proper offset) and width to fit those 275mm R-Comps up front, more power to ya...No reason to run spacers then. HOWEVER, to run spacers for the sheer joy of "hella flush" when your tire and wheel clear all components without rub, and up front gave you an ideal scrub radius? Probably not a good idea. I would inspect the lug bolts and make sure they're either marked 8.8 or 10.9. Anything else (below or above, or without markings) would lead me to believe the improper bolts are used. Metric grade 8.8 or below bolts stretch too easily, 10.9 or above are too brittle. Bolts without SAE or Metric markings should never be used. See this chart for some basic info: http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-in...ade-Chart.aspx NOTE: SAE grade 5 (3 marks at 120º) is equivalent to Metric 10.9 in tensile strength, although the marks would likely exist on SAE sizes, not metric bolts. Just my internet opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
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05-18-2012, 11:21 AM | #76 |
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Also, to add to my previous point. It is entirely possible for the spacer to be the culprit in this case. If a spacer is machined to the wrong tolerances, for example, a chamfer edge few thousands of an inch too large to allow the wheel to sit completely flush with the face of the spacer, or imperfections on the spacer prevents the spacer from sitting completely flush with the hub face, or if the hub hole on the spacer is a few hundredth of an inch off allowing the spacer to sit unevenly on the hub nub when installed, any of the above spacer defect can easily lead to enough movement of either the wheel face or the spacer face to cause a complete bolt failure. And all it has to do is damage one single bolt to result in a similar catastrophic failure.
In cases like this, the most obvious damage is to the bolt itself. What leads to a single bolt failing (or multiple bolt failing) is up to speculation here. Whether it's inferior bolt, improper torque of the bolt, or spacer failure is impossible to determine at this point.
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05-18-2012, 11:22 AM | #77 | |
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For example, if I slide my TMS spacers on halfway, there is still NO PLAY between the hub and spacer. There will still be no wiggle.
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05-18-2012, 11:27 AM | #78 | |
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This wasn't the case with much older, lugcentric wheel/hub designs, but they haven't been around for ages, AND, the lug studs or bolts are MUCH beefier on true lugcentric setups. Yes you can torque down lugs without proper hub mating, but it will cause pre-mature bolt or stud failure in designes that weren't meant to be lugcentric. It may not be a week, a month, or even several months, but it will happen.
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05-18-2012, 11:28 AM | #79 | |
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Try this (but don't do it at high speeds/high load). Tighten all 5 lugs in a star pattern on one of the front wheels, then loosen one, and go out for a quick drive. You'll be SHOCKED at the amount of vibration transmitted through despite 4 solidly tightened lugs. Imagine 88ft-lbs of clamping force being applied at 5 points, equal distance from the center of the circle at 72º apart, when you remove one of the clamping forces, and spin the circle with 55 lbs of weight attached at high speeds, the difference in clamping force, the unbalanced clamping, will generate enough wobble even if the other 4 bolts are tightened down properly. The WIGGLE comes from the oscillating forces, not a physical movement. And it's that oscillating force that will stretch a bolt back and forth until it breaks.
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05-18-2012, 11:31 AM | #80 | |
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**EDIT** If you don't believe me, just google "one missing lug bolt" and see how many people noticed a lug bolt missing by random visual inspection, not by excessive vibrations in the car.
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05-18-2012, 11:36 AM | #81 | |
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Again, no offense. I put close to 150,000 miles on the E30 318is riding on the same 8mm spacers that leaves the hub nub completely UNTOUCHED by the wheels. I can tell you that, if you're putting load on the little nub extender on spacers, you're in for a world of HURT. And the hub design between the mighty E9x and the 20+ year old E30 is practically the same.
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05-18-2012, 11:36 AM | #82 | |
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In fact, if you're close to Fontana, come out to our auto cross this sunday at Auto Club Speedway. I won't be riding in the car, because I don't want the embarrassment of riding in 3 wheels, but feel free to take out one of the lug nuts on the front wheel and drive the course.
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05-18-2012, 11:39 AM | #83 | |
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05-18-2012, 11:45 AM | #84 | |
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I make sure to torque the lugs (if needed) after every session. After my first session at VIR-I had 3 lugs loose that had to be tightened. |
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05-18-2012, 11:47 AM | #85 |
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Yes seriously. I've seen several lug failures IN PERSON when only one of the bolts (or nuts) are improperly installed on track. In fact, it was hilarious to hear from my buddy who actually was driving in the car (someone else's car), and to find out from the owner of the car that he was in such a rush to get the car on the grid he had accidentally left one of the bolts off of the wheel.
At least he (the owner of the car) was good humored about it, and the damages to the car was only cosmetic (ripped out the wheel liner, some damage to the finishes on the inside of the wheel). Could have been a nasty mess, as they were heading to the north half of the auto cross course close to a set of barriers when it happened. My buddy who was instructing at the time, said he thought the vibration coming from the front end was a little odd, but since it was a car he wasn't familiar with, he proceeded with caution...At least, up to the point where the vibration backed the other bolts out and the wheel came off of the car.
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05-18-2012, 11:49 AM | #86 | |
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05-18-2012, 11:55 AM | #87 | |||
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So, forgive the somewhat less than official links, i'll try to post as many as I can to get the message across. I thought this was common sense but I guess the sky must be green for some people too.........
http://konigusa.net/nodisplay/hub-ce...nd-centerbore/ Quote:
http://www.phantasmusa.com/ichiba-wh...version-2.html Quote:
http://www.stancedandenhanced.com/t4...er-faq/?page=1 Quote:
......about being dangerous, I'm not the one running a lugcentric setup on a hubcentric car...
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05-18-2012, 12:00 PM | #88 |
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I know exactly what happened. The wheel bolts were loose. Period.
How do I know? Because I have a MS 10mm spacer in my garage that looks a lot like that one. The way the hub assembly works is based on proper alignment, provided by the hubcentric ring, and compression provided by the bolts. When the bolts are tightened to 90 lb-ft, they exert tons of pressure clamping the whole assembly together. If nothing moves, then it can carry a huge load. Once something moves in the assembly, the metal parts grind against each other, wear happens and things get looser and looser until something breaks. Nobody has said anything about the rim - is the centerbore proper on the rim - 72.5mm? If it's an E39 rim with a 74mm centerbore, the gap is enough to cause a problem like this. |
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