M owners Brakes How do you like them Track?

[KINGLEH]

Originally Posted by swamp2

This topic has been beat to death here. Braking performance is dominated by many things above piston count. Assuming you have enough brake power to lock at any speed you then have, roughly in order of importance:

1. Brake pad compound - provides enough friction and fade resistance
2. Swept area per vehicle weight - provide braking power
3. Brake thermal management/cooling (cooling flow and rotor design) - prevent rotor warp
4. Rotor design (floating, internal cooling fins) - prevent rotor warp
5. Brake system mass, i.e. rotor size (for thermal mass/management)
6. Proper brake fluid
...
...
7. Number of pistons in brake caliper

It is fairly obvious from your post that you are more worried about aesthetics compared to actual performance. Don't get me wrong I love the killer look of a flashy/racy BBK but it is not really money well spent.

uhhhh


3 4 and 5 pretty much the same thing.....

[Serious]

wait... let me get this straight...

you want to compare the braking systems of a $120,000 3100lbs track car vs. a $55,000 3700lbs sports sedan.

1) BMW has said that carbon ceramics arent for their street cars. (i and most disagree with them but that is their official statement why they dont have CC brake options).

2) BMW didnt have a contract with brembo up until last year. Thats why your seeing 135's wearing 6 pot calipers.

3) The ATE's got the job done on the street and are acceptable for some track duty

As for Porsches PCCB... one of the major car mags did a recent comparison on brake fade and stopping distance.

EDIT: Found it http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ff+page-4.html

After 20+ stops from high speed neither the PCCB equipped 997S nor the Stock brake equipped 997S showed any sign of fading... and both had equal stopping distances.

Funny thing was they also tested a 335i and 350z...

the 335 has the same crappy single piston setup similar to the m3... whereas the 350z wears multipiston brembo calipers. The result was after 13 panic stops from high speed the Z's brakes faded earlier and produced longer stopping distances then the 335.

Guess looks and logo's arent everything.

BTW in another recent comparison a 997 Turbo 70-0 = 154 ft. m3 did 70-0 in 158ft.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by seriousm3

wait... let me get this straight...

you want to compare the braking systems of a $120,000 3100lbs track car vs. a $55,000 3700lbs sports sedan.

1) BMW has said that carbon ceramics arent for their street cars. (i and most disagree with them but that is their official statement why they dont have CC brake options).

2) BMW didnt have a contract with brembo up until last year. Thats why your seeing 135's wearing 6 pot calipers.

3) The ATE's got the job done on the street and are acceptable for some track duty

As for Porsches PCCB... one of the major car mags did a recent comparison on brake fade and stopping distance.

EDIT: Found it http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ff+page-4.html

After 20+ stops from high speed neither the PCCB equipped 997S nor the Stock brake equipped 997S showed any sign of fading... and both had equal stopping distances.

Funny thing was they also tested a 335i and 350z...

the 335 has the same crappy single piston setup similar to the m3... whereas the 350z wears multipiston brembo calipers. The result was after 13 panic stops from high speed the Z's brakes faded earlier and produced longer stopping distances then the 335.

Guess looks and logo's arent everything.

BTW in another recent comparison a 997 Turbo 70-0 = 154 ft. m3 did 70-0 in 158ft.

I was just looking for that article. Good find. The number of pistons is obviously not the only factor in brake performance. I agree that it's not fair to compare the brakes on a $70k BMW with a $120k Porsche, but there are less expensive cars with better performing stock brake setups. Also, I think that everyone here agrees that the M3 has great initial stopping performance. The problem is the fade. Single-piston calipers just don't provide consistent pressure across the entire pad or dissipate heat as well.

[lvwirelessguy]

Originally Posted by KINGLEH

i agree with you Paul..... its a bummer for a Chrysler magnum to pull up next to you and you wish you had the same brakes!!.. thats just not right....

but the SRT models use Brembo..

and lets see... VW does too.. Porsche.. Audi. Mitsubishi.. Nissan.. Subaru.... and its no fluke....


but still BMW does nothing with brake... except put better ones on the 1 series!


i lost trust in a new M5s brakes a couple weeks ago after 1 lap.....

i haven't really tested the e92 brakes yet but can look at them and tell they are lacking... the design is a cheap and old one...


I have many laps on PCCBs and they are great... warming up is a little different then iron... but once up to temp they are wonderful... not even close to the same league as the M3s... also the suspension geometry of the GT3 is very good for braking....


i feel that the only thing the M3 is really lacking is 40hp and a multipiston style caliper....






and Joe.... you hafta run pf01s on your car to make it stop... ha! i wouldn't be bragging about that... those pads are designed for a car with Michelin slicks... and something that could pull well over 2 Gs under braking...

what kinda tires were u running on you M?


and talking about story's 2 years ago at Laguna... u need to get back out there man...

The M3 brakes outperform the ones that come on the 135i

[paulGT3]

Guys if you need Car and Driver to back up your stats you need to find a new source.
Car and driver when doing comparos on performance cars uses categories like Trunk space and got to have it factor. And those categories actually decide the outcome many times.

Really the proof is in the pudding. Go to the track and see how many Real Track BMWs there are with
stock brakes. If they track more than 5 times a year typically they all have
1. a warp story and
2. Stop Tech or some other brake upgrade.

I am talking about guys who track more than just occasionally.

And SeriousM the question was WHY does BMW not put a nice brake package on its best performance cars? I wasnt comparing PCCBs to the ugly dull iron that is the M3 brake system. I just used that as an example of a setup that works and is nice looking.

I am thinking of buying a M3 and the one thing I regret is with all its great features why did BMW skimp on the brakes? Like posted above the 135i has a better setup.
And yes there is an asthetic value to this. If I am going to buy a $70K car I would like to see a performance brake package through the rim.



And again I was able to induce fade on our 335i in 7 hot stops.

I am NOT comparing the PCCBs on the GT3 I was just using that as example
I guess I could use the 300M if you like
But when on the track and I am driving with these M3s then it is a comparable performance item.
I agree with TLud on the fade issue. I have NO problem with initial bite on the
335i or the M3 or even my X5, just that this car as good as it is needs that package
to complete the overall package that is the M3. I looked at the M3 rotors and those are fine and look good, cross drilled but lets put a nice caliper in there. In my opinion.

Thanks to Radiation Joe for getting me some ideas on what BMW was thinking I appreciate it.

[Mickb]

Chaps

Before I beign, would like to preface this with the fact that my brembo bbk for my e92 just arrrived and I had ordered it before I got the car.

I might not be as experienced as you chaps but I have 20+ track days under my belt, have done various advanced driving courses and been to the ring a couple of times for BMW driver training.

Just wanted to report on the actual performance of the braking system in the car (regardless of the rotor size, material, piston numbers etc). I did a track day in my E92 at Mondello park here in Ireland a few weeks ago. Its a tight track that is very hard on brakes.

Personally, I was surprised that the brakes didn't fade as badly as I would have expected. Sure there was fade, bu it was manageable. I found that if I was doing 4-5 lap stints, laps 4-5 were dodgy, but 10 minutes in the paddock and I was ready to repeat with typically good performance for laps 1-3 again. If you forget the fade issue, in terms of stopping distance the brakes are right up there and more than enough to trigger abs and make my ps2's the limiting factor.

In terms of diagnosing the fade, the nature of my pedal travel suggested it was a pad/fluid issue rather than any issue of clamping force.

So in fairness, I had to reckon that changing hoses, changing the stock fluid to dot 5.1 or somethign and putting a set of performance pads on the car would give you a braking system that will work for 95% of people.

Yes I am glad I have my brembos, but I recognise that its a function of looks and ease of pad change as much as anything (because I probably could have made the above changes far cheaper and had a decent system)

Mick

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Mickb

In terms of diagnosing the fade, the nature of my pedal travel suggested it was a pad/fluid issue rather than any issue of clamping force.

So in fairness, I had to reckon that changing hoses, changing the stock fluid to dot 5.1 or somethign and putting a set of performance pads on the car would give you a braking system that will work for 95% of people.
k

+1. Upgrading the hoses, fluid and pads will probably deliver more (and consistent) braking performance at the track than 99.9% of the people on this forum can ever utilize. Focusing on/wanting red calipers with M logos misses the point.

I do find it annoying that the stock fluid boils and splashes around the engine bay slightly though. No reason why that should be happening. Why not ship the car with better fluid?

The OP seems to think the E9X M3 is track car. Well, it is not. It is a sports coupe/sedan designed to be driven mainly on the road, but can deliver reasonable performance on the track. As others have said, there is no point comparing a $120k 3100lb built for the track with a $65k 3600lb road car built for spirited driving. Yes, BMW can ship the cars with an even better brake system, but that would increase the MSRP. They obviously have figured it's not worth it.

Finally, the single piston calipers not applying uniform clamping force argument: that "sounds" like it makes sense, but nobody on this forum knows if that is the case in the current design or not. BMW has done the testing, and they have the data on this particular design. Only they know if that is a significant issue to the extent that it will take away from the performance. In the absence of continued punishment, it clearly does not hinder performance as we have all seen the stopping distance data. In the presence of continued punishment, it might, but we don't know to what extent as the variables above (lines, pads, fluid) are in the equation as well.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by KINGLEH

i agree with you Paul..... its a bummer for a Chrysler magnum to pull up next to you and you wish you had the same brakes!!.. thats just not right....

but the SRT models use Brembo..

and lets see... VW does too.. Porsche.. Audi. Mitsubishi.. Nissan.. Subaru.... and its no fluke....

but still BMW does nothing with brake... except put better ones on the 1 series!

i lost trust in a new M5s brakes a couple weeks ago after 1 lap.....

i haven't really tested the e92 brakes yet but can look at them and tell they are lacking... the design is a cheap and old one...

I have many laps on PCCBs and they are great... warming up is a little different then iron... but once up to temp they are wonderful... not even close to the same league as the M3s... also the suspension geometry of the GT3 is very good for braking....

i feel that the only thing the M3 is really lacking is 40hp and a multipiston style caliper....


and Joe.... you hafta run pf01s on your car to make it stop... ha! i wouldn't be bragging about that... those pads are designed for a car with Michelin slicks... and something that could pull well over 2 Gs under braking...

what kinda tires were u running on you M?

and talking about story's 2 years ago at Laguna... u need to get back out there man...

Oh my! Where do I start with this one?

I've never felt embarassed when a Chrysler Magnum has pulled up beside me. I don't feel the need to compensate for personal inadequacies with aftermarket brakes.

One series brakes are better than the ones on the M3?

The M3 is only lacking 40 hp and multi piston brakes? What about a real suspension and wider front tires?

I ran 265 width Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on 9.5 x 18 forged magnesium BBS wheels in the front; 285 wide on 10.5 in the rear. Why on earth would I feel bad about running PF01s. That's like saying I should be embarassed for turning better lap times because I'm braking better.

I'd have to ship my car across country to go to Laguna again. Not likely. I change locations for work about once a year. It's really tough to get back to CA. I might rent the orange TC Kline carbon coupe for a Laguna track day. That thing is sweet.

[footie]

I think Lucid, said everything that needed to be said on the subject. The M3 is at best a sports coupe/saloon design for spirited driving and the occasional trackday, but by no means should be considered for serious track work in standard form. The brakes are good in the context of day to day driving, but they DO need to be upgraded like almost every normal car when track work becomes more serious. Porsche are one of the few companies which take their brake design and usage serious, every model can stand up to some serious work without fading but to compare the brakes on the M3 to that of the GT3 is really unfair, the two cars are catering to different clients and expectations.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by paulGT3

Guys if you need Car and Driver to back up your stats you need to find a new source.
Car and driver when doing comparos on performance cars uses categories like Trunk space and got to have it factor. And those categories actually decide the outcome many times.

Really the proof is in the pudding. Go to the track and see how many Real Track BMWs there are with
stock brakes. If they track more than 5 times a year typically they all have
1. a warp story and
2. Stop Tech or some other brake upgrade.

I am talking about guys who track more than just occasionally.

And SeriousM the question was WHY does BMW not put a nice brake package on its best performance cars? I wasnt comparing PCCBs to the ugly dull iron that is the M3 brake system. I just used that as an example of a setup that works and is nice looking.

I am thinking of buying a M3 and the one thing I regret is with all its great features why did BMW skimp on the brakes? Like posted above the 135i has a better setup.
And yes there is an asthetic value to this. If I am going to buy a $70K car I would like to see a performance brake package through the rim.



And again I was able to induce fade on our 335i in 7 hot stops.

I am NOT comparing the PCCBs on the GT3 I was just using that as example
I guess I could use the 300M if you like
But when on the track and I am driving with these M3s then it is a comparable performance item.
I agree with TLud on the fade issue. I have NO problem with initial bite on the
335i or the M3 or even my X5, just that this car as good as it is needs that package
to complete the overall package that is the M3. I looked at the M3 rotors and those are fine and look good, cross drilled but lets put a nice caliper in there. In my opinion.

Thanks to Radiation Joe for getting me some ideas on what BMW was thinking I appreciate it.

135i doesn't have better brakes then the m3... they are just prettier and have more pistons.

If you were able to put the 135 calipers, pads, rotors on an m3 you would increase unsprung weight and wouldnt see any improvement in either fade resistant or stopping power.

Besides if the m3 weighed 3100lbs it would have alot less fading problems.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by paulGT3

I really want to have an adult conversation here. PLEASE. My question is REAL and I want to know why BMW makes this compromise in this, one of the three most important attributes with sport cars, acceleration, braking and handling.

And for your information I have TWO BMWs in the garage right now(of four including an M).
WHen talking best brakes in the world BMW never enters the conversation if you are honest with yourself.

Now can somebody answer my question. I dont want a pissing match or flame war. I just want to know BMWs reasoning behind this. Do I have to go to a Porsche board to ask?

If you want a REAL conversation, don't bitch and moan and complain about the BMW brakes. Your tone indicates your mind is made up about how inadequate the Ms brakes will be for the track. I believe you are looking for an argument, or maybe as a 335i owner are trolling.....if you wanted to know why not just ask, "Guys, currious to see what people's experience have been on the track with the stock brakes". You would then most likely get some replies because it has been discussed ore than once on these forums.......as footie indicated when he discussed Lucid's comments and the dozens of arguments concerning whether more pistons means better brakes, which they definitely do not.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

If you want a REAL conversation, don't bitch and moan and complain about the BMW brakes. Your tone indicates your mind is made up about how inadequate the Ms brakes will be for the track. I believe you are looking for an argument, or maybe as a 335i owner are trolling.....if you wanted to know why not just ask, "Guys, currious to see what people's experience have been on the track with the stock brakes". You would then most likely get some replies because it has been discussed ore than once on these forums.......as footie indicated when he discussed Lucid's comments and the dozens of arguments concerning whether more pistons means better brakes, which they definitely do not.

Not that he needs me to vouch for him, but PaulGT3 is certainly not a troll. He is a regular on this and other bimmer forums who has provided a great deal of valuable information. I don't see the problem in being honest and critical about the M3's (or any other car's) weaknesses and discussing how they can be improved.

To get back on track, I'd like to hear more about (1) specific owners's experiences tracking the E9X M3, what kind of driving they do (autoX, closed-circuit, etc.), and how the M3's brakes compare to other vehicles they've driven; and (2) specific experiences in improving the OEM braking system on the M3 (new bushings, steel brake lines, better fluid, performance pads, BBKs, etc.).

[Radiation Joe]

Jeeze, Mr e46e92love,

Please take a Prozac or whatever brings you down a notch or two. Paul had a fairly legit question, and he took what we had to say at face value. He didn't argue over the merits of BBKs like so many would, and he didn't get personal. Let's not chase away the intelligent posters. They're pretty rare.

[stevehifi]

I have a friend who used to club race his e36 M3, and all he used was track pads, stock rotors and good fluid. Coupled with race tires and aggressive suspension, he ran some pretty fast lap times and won his class.

You don't have to blow the budget, people that race their cars are the cheapest bunch that you'll meet. With the amount of pads/rotors/tires/fluids that they go through.. they do the best with what they have.

[Mickb]

Originally Posted by TLud

To get back on track, I'd like to hear more about (1) specific owners's experiences tracking the E9X M3, what kind of driving they do (autoX, closed-circuit, etc.), and how the M3's brakes compare to other vehicles they've driven; and (2) specific experiences in improving the OEM braking system on the M3 (new bushings, steel brake lines, better fluid, performance pads, BBKs, etc.).

See my post above. Only other car I have seriously tracked was E46 M3 and I can definitely say the E92 brakes felt better and lasted longer (stock vs stock). Havent upgraded oEM since I have a BBK on the way and shall report on that at the end of the month, but the OEM system as stock gave me sufficient confidence that a pad, hose & fluid upgrade would suffice for most users.

I think this whole single vs multi piston issue is way overblown. The M3 delivers sufficient clamping force. Heat dissipation is more a function of fluid, pads & rotor size than single vs multi piston (and the overall weight of the car).

This is not a track car. Its a fast road car that handles beautifully and which can deliver fun on the track, but if you want a serious track car you are in the wrong place.

Me I'm happy to drive this thing sideways all day long and if I manage a few decent laps along the way then so be it.

Mick

[Krueger///M3]

Originally Posted by paulGT3

I really want to have an adult conversation here. PLEASE. My question is REAL and I want to know why BMW makes this compromise in this, one of the three most important attributes with sport cars, acceleration, braking and handling.

And for your information I have TWO BMWs in the garage right now(of four including an M).
WHen talking best brakes in the world BMW never enters the conversation if you are honest with yourself.

Now can somebody answer my question. I dont want a pissing match or flame war. I just want to know BMWs reasoning behind this. Do I have to go to a Porsche board to ask?

The new M3 had the shortest braking distance that Edmunds had ever achieved in their testing (60-0 IN 100 FT flat) I think that says it all.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Krueger///M3

The new M3 had the shortest braking distance that Edmunds had ever achieved in their testing (60-0 IN 100 FT flat) I think that says it all.

It does not mean dickall as that is only 1 stop and is more of a test of tire grip than brake performance.Real brake performance is braking from 200kph to 70 kph several times a lap for lap after lap.

[GT3 Tim]

Originally Posted by paulGT3

I dont buy it I have never had a M3 out brake my GT3 anywhere and in most cases if I am going to over take a BMW I can count after he brakes several counts then I brake and I can go deeper.
There is a reason that no other performance manufacturer uses this set up.
The most seasoned mechanics in the tracking wolrd out here (and I have 6 tracks
to choose from here with Willow Springs being 50 minutes from my house) have
told me when I got my Z4M, make sure you change the brakes.In fact if it was good
you would see racing setups with this setup and I have NEVER seen it. Only on
stock BMWs at the track have I seen this. If you look around at the track I would say
40% of them have Brembos
The stock brakes are fine for street but even the BMW performance brake upgrade is a multipiston setup

I'm with you man! The GT3's brakes are one of it's best attributes. I was also a bit stupified when I saw the M3 had single piston calipers....but they appear to be adequate. I am not past break in, so the jury is still out for me.

FWIW, I had iron's on my GT3, not PCCB's, and LOVED them. Even the Stoptech kit (ST40 pads) I had on my E36 M3 with Pagid pads did not come close to the feel, communication, and grunt of the GT3 set-up.

[Dascamel]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

haha - paint your BMW calipers yellow and save $10,000 !!!!

I want someone to go hot pink for the wife/girlfriend...

[Dascamel]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

It does not mean dickall as that is only 1 stop and is more of a test of tire grip than brake performance.Real brake performance is braking from 200kph to 70 kph several times a lap for lap after lap.

+1, thats a one time panic stop for real world situations. Tracking is more about heat buildup/given period of time.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by KINGLEH

uhhhh

3 4 and 5 pretty much the same thing.....

Absolutely not.

3. Is about routing air flow around the vehicle on to the brakes.
4. Is all about the rotor design. A two piece floating design with cast iron rotor and aluminum hat pinned together as per stock M3 design is great. It allows much more thermal expansion without generating thermal stress. As well care must be taken to properly design the internal fins of the rotor again for cooling
5. Is the weight of the system. Too little weight with the same heat generation will cause a much larger rise in caliper and fluid temperature.

[KINGLEH]

Originally Posted by lvwirelessguy

The M3 brakes outperform the ones that come on the 135i

no..........



the M3 out performs the 135....



and in pure performance... like 1 time stops... the M3 is fine.. like everyone is saying...