Differences Between Brembo 380mm/380mm BBK and 365mm/345mm BBK

[lucid]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If I'm understanding correctly, ~7% lighter rotors = ~7% less thermal capacity which would need significantly improved cooling to balance it back to OEM?

Yes, that is the question on my mind, but for the 365/345 kit. I PM'ed Gary, and hopefuly he will provide some accurate numbers here.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Does Brembo rotors have significantly better designed cooling than OEM?
It always struck me that developing better cooling ducting to the OEM brakes (with uprated pads/fluid) would be a far better cost/benefit upgrade than fitting larger brake hardware.

I don't know if the Brembo rotors offer better cooling or not, but the main issue is that we don't have cooling ducts for the rotors, and thus limited airflow. I am sure someone will soon come up with a kit soon (I mean ducting that runs from the front end and hooks up to a modified shield behind the rotors on the axle).

[sparkyg]

I trust PG's measurements, the guy totally geeks all his testing so I am sure it is solid

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150944

[lucid]

Originally Posted by sparkyg

I trust PG's measurements, the guy totally geeks all his testing so I am sure it is solid

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150944

I don't think those were PG's measurements. I think he was just presenting a summary. See badfish's post later in that thread (#21). I think the Brembo numbers came from OC, and badfish showed that OC's scale was off a little.

This info validates badfish's stock rotor numbers and therefore proves that that OC's number were off:

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9...sc_perforated/

Anyway, looking forward to your measurements and other weight info from Gary.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by lucid

I don't know if the Brembo rotors offer better cooling or not, but the main issue is that we don't have cooling ducts for the rotors, and thus limited airflow. I am sure someone will soon come up with a kit soon (I mean ducting that runs from the front end and hooks up to a modified shield behind the rotors on the axle).

I was at an event recently in Portland OR and a guy there had ducted front brakes done by Cantrell Motorsports in Washington State. He understood that Cantrell planned to sell them as a kit. As an FYI, he was running Stoptech's 380mm fronts/355 rears with 18" BBS CH's (8.5" front/10" rear). The BBS rims only cleared the bigger Stoptech brakes by a hair, but they cleared them!

[lucid]

Originally Posted by JAJ

I was at an event recently in Portland OR and a guy there had ducted front brakes done by Cantrell Motorsports in Washington State. He understood that Cantrell planned to sell them as a kit. As an FYI, he was running Stoptech's 380mm fronts/355 rears with 18" BBS CH's (8.5" front/10" rear). The BBS rims only cleared the bigger Stoptech brakes by a hair, but they cleared them!

Thanks for the heads up. These kits should hit the market soon and really help I think. I bet they will raise eyebrows at the dealership though...

[sparkyg]

Originally Posted by lucid

I don't think those were PG's measurements. I think he was just presenting a summary. See badfish's post later in that thread (#21). I think the Brembo numbers came from OC, and badfish showed that OC's scale was off a little.

This info validates badfish's stock rotor numbers and therefore proves that that OC's number were off:

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9...sc_perforated/

Anyway, looking forward to your measurements and other weight info from Gary.

Sorta a measurement disaster.

I will weigh at scales at work that are use for shipping. Will be accurate at least to 1/10 kg so I'll get things nailed down

Be good if Gary_C could just reach on the shelf and measure a few of these bad boys.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by lucid

Thanks for the heads up. These kits should hit the market soon and really help I think. I bet they will raise eyebrows at the dealership though...

Well, if they ask any questions you can say you just installed them because you like the "looks". Chances are good that if they're Brembo, they'll probably believe you.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by JAJ

Well, if they ask any questions you can say you just installed them because you like the "looks". Chances are good that if they're Brembo, they'll probably believe you.

Yeah, or if they are simply painted RED!

[SenorFunkyPants]

If BMW invested in some red caliper paint, some BREMBO stickers and turned up the brake servo boost 10% then the market for afterfit M3 BBKs would disappear overnight.

[aus]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If BMW invested in some red caliper paint, some BREMBO stickers and turned up the brake servo boost 10% then the market for afterfit M3 BBKs would disappear overnight.

It still wouldn't be a fixed caliper design. BMW is starting to change their ways. The 135 has fixed calipers and the new X5/X6 M's are suppose to have multi-piston fixed calipers up front.

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by aus

It still wouldn't be a fixed caliper design. BMW is starting to change their ways. The 135 has fixed calipers and the new X5/X6 M's are suppose to have multi-piston fixed calipers up front.

Those kits internals are still very diff then the kits you buy from Brembo, even though they are sourced from Brembo.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by aus

It still wouldn't be a fixed caliper design. BMW is starting to change their ways. The 135 has fixed calipers and the new X5/X6 M's are suppose to have multi-piston fixed calipers up front.

Doesn't the M3 on its crappy agricultural brakes have a similar (if not better) brake performance than the 135?
The M3 brakes may not be jazzy expensive multi piston designer named anchors but they are relatively cheap, low maintenance and do the business on the street and with a pad/fluid upgrade they are plenty good enough for the casual tracker.
I know most of you guys fully understand the pros and cons of a BBK but there are also plenty of peeps who get bamboozled into thinking they need a BBK, and fully expect significantly shorter braking distances as the principle benefit.

[aus]

Originally Posted by STALKER

Those kits internals are still very diff then the kits you buy from Brembo, even though they are sourced from Brembo.

I know what you're saying, but the 135 brakes have a lot in common with Porsche GT3 brakes, so they're pretty decent calipers, but apparently the pads are a little on the small side.

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Doesn't the M3 on its crappy agricultural brakes have a similar (if not better) brake performance than the 135?
The M3 brakes may not be jazzy expensive multi piston designer named anchors but they are relatively cheap, low maintenance and do the business on the street and with a pad/fluid upgrade they are plenty good enough for the casual tracker.
I know most of you guys fully understand the pros and cons of a BBK but there are also plenty of peeps who get bamboozled into thinking they need a BBK, and fully expect significantly shorter braking distances as the principle benefit.

The problem with the stock brakes is they're not up to snuff for track work. You change the fluid... you just lost your warranty/service for the brakes.
My main point is there's no reason for us not to have fixed caliper brakes in a $64+ car. I think most would agree fixed calipers are better than a sliding calper.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by aus

The problem with the stock brakes is they're not up to snuff for track work.

"Track work" is a bit of a catch all phrase. For the occassional mixed track day then a change of pads and fluid will be more than adequate. For competition tracking then a full brake upgrade might be handy .

Originally Posted by aus

My main point is there's no reason for us not to have fixed caliper brakes in a $64+ car. I think most would agree fixed calipers are better than a sliding calper.

Better in what sense...A Rolex may well be "better" than a Seiko but at the end of the day they only have to tell you the time. If the brakes work consistently and reliably from high speed on the street then I'm happy, I certainly don't want to pay extra for a cut down Brembo brake kit when the car is new or massive bills when the same Brembo brakes need an overhaul after X0,000 miles.

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by aus

I know what you're saying, but the 135 brakes have a lot in common with Porsche GT3 brakes, so they're pretty decent calipers, but apparently the pads are a little on the small side.



The problem with the stock brakes is they're not up to snuff for track work. You change the fluid... you just lost your warranty/service for the brakes.
My main point is there's no reason for us not to have fixed caliper brakes in a $64+ car. I think most would agree fixed calipers are better than a sliding calper.

Do a search on 1addicts.com. There is thread about the internals. You will see what Im talking about. Its still not a bad kit though.

[aus]

Originally Posted by STALKER

Do a search on 1addicts.com. There is thread about the internals. You will see what Im talking about. Its still not a bad kit though.

You'll need to read the follow-up on that thread. The failures were due to "custom" cut pads that didn't fit well. There have been no problems once proper pads were used.

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by aus

You'll need to read the follow-up on that thread. The failures were due to "custom" cut pads that didn't fit well. There have been no problems once proper pads were used.

I have not checked the thread in a long time.
I'll look into it again.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by JAJ

I was at an event recently in Portland OR and a guy there had ducted front brakes done by Cantrell Motorsports in Washington State. He understood that Cantrell planned to sell them as a kit. As an FYI, he was running Stoptech's 380mm fronts/355 rears with 18" BBS CH's (8.5" front/10" rear). The BBS rims only cleared the bigger Stoptech brakes by a hair, but they cleared them!

I'll call these guys tomorrow and see if they can sell me ANYTHING that has ANYTHING to do with rotor cooling (25 minutes of sub 2:20 pace laps). My brakes were cooked and done with at Watkins Glen. Just cooked. It is crazy that BMW shipped this car without any cooling whatsoever. Even the E46 M3 had some form of cooling (I hear you could pop some kind of duct open that pointed toward the brakes and folks used that as a cooling intake with ducting?). I refuse to go back to a high speed track before installing cooling ducts.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by lucid

I'll call these guys tomorrow and see if they can sell me ANYTHING that has ANYTHING to do with rotor cooling (25 minutes of sub 2:20 pace laps). My brakes were cooked and done with at Watkins Glen. Just cooked. It is crazy that BMW shipped this car without any cooling whatsoever. Even the E46 M3 had some form of cooling (I hear you could pop some kind of duct open that pointed toward the brakes and folks used that as a cooling intake with ducting?). I refuse to go back to a high speed track before installing cooling ducts.

It was a ductwork setup with a segregated opening in the lower-outer air intakes on the front bumper feeding a ducted backing plate (like the Turner racing backing plates). You get positive cooling, not just a vent.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by JAJ

It was a ductwork setup with a segregated opening in the lower-outer air intakes on the front bumper feeding a ducted backing plate (like the Turner racing backing plates). You get positive cooling, not just a vent.

Yeah, Radition Joe stopped by the Glen and we were staring at the bumper trying to see where one can install cooling intakes. I don't know about segragating the engine intake. It should be possible to install a flatter brake cooling intake under all that. There is room down there. I'll make my own cooling intake. What I really need is the brake backing plate adaptor. Screw the warranty on this one. Maybe I'll just weld my own backing plate together if I get the dimensions right...

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by lucid

Yeah, Radition Joe stopped by the Glen and we were staring at the bumper trying to see where one can install cooling intakes. I don't know about segragating the engine intake. It should be possible to install a flatter brake cooling intake under all that. There is room down there. I'll make my own cooling intake. What I really need is the brake backing plate adaptor. Screw the warranty on this one. Maybe I'll just weld my own backing plate together if I get the dimensions right...

The Hamann front splitter has openings to the left and right of the center lower oil cooler air intake that look like they'd be perfect for brake cooling. I thought of getting one just to see if I could make it work, but then I saw one on a car and realized it wasn't for me. Still thinking about how to do it.