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02-05-2014, 11:38 AM | #1 |
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supercharge /// ess or vf engineering
already searched this key word
and didn't find something useful so i bought the dct m3 2 month ago stock for now..... i'm still with my old 335 fbo trying to sell it now... the problem with the M is i miss the turbo kick i dont like the drama and the high revs of the s65 motor after few hours of reading here i understand i need sc the motor since than i tried to save me this power problems that we all share usually and ordered the ess tune and ms test pipe (it on the way....) i'm feeling its not going to make big difference so..... i dont want to wait and wait i figure i will sc it now the car is dd i don't going to track it just point a to b and some tripping on the weekends my car produced in 10\2010 so i hope my rod bearing will hold the abuse.. thinking on safe power, seems like 600hp will be more than enough for now i read a lot about the ess kits and seems like they r the popular choice by the forum members and damn, the kit looks good!!!! i also read about the vf kits and see their cooling method that looks very efficient and read about the company(they have a lot of sc kits for great cars) although this kits look like s**t (manifold) seems that they both offer the same power gains so what the hell i should pick and why?? sorry upfront for the pandora box i'm opening here but i hope i will get some answers thanks
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02-05-2014, 11:46 AM | #2 |
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have you looked at the Evolve unit?
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02-05-2014, 11:48 AM | #3 |
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sell the m3. keep your fbo 335 if you like the torque and don't want to rev your motor out.
both kits use the same centri supercharger. they will be virtually identical in their power delivery, and you'll still need to wring them out to make max power & torque. |
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02-05-2014, 12:06 PM | #4 |
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If you already have the ESS tune, the cable cost can be applied to the purchase of the kit, saving some $$ in the process.
We're having a blast with our ESS VT2-625 kit, here's a recent post of our experience at the drags: EAS | Famoso Drag Strip results: Just .004 away from 10-second territory! http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=942435
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02-05-2014, 12:16 PM | #5 |
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Cable is negligible when talking 12k Tom. To the OP, both kits are great. VF held the world 1/4 record for years 10.69s with a VF620. A ESS-625 broke that with a 10.65s I believe. These kits both deliver. I'm running a VF650 and very much like it.
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02-05-2014, 12:26 PM | #6 |
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I strongly suggest you read this thread before seriously considering VF...
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=845593 |
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02-05-2014, 12:41 PM | #8 | |
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BUT if you want to supercharge your M, here's some data worth considering before you make a final decision: As of right now, there are 2 kits using the Rotrex C38 supercharger (Evolve & Active Autowerke) and they have the best TQ numbers (that's a fact). The Vortech kits aren't bad by any means (they've power the 2 M3s that have gone in the 10s in the 1/4 mile), but you're not going to get any low end punch from them because of their design. They are internally different from each other (Rotrex = Planetary vs Vortech = Fixed Gear Supercharger) and the higher CFM the Vortech (requires higher higher boost/RPMs for it to come "alive"). Here's a dyno overlay illustrating the TQ values of an Evolve 600 (Rotrex C38 at 6.7psi peak, labeled "Evolve") and ESS 625 (Vortech V3 at 7psi peak, labeled "RunFile") both run on a DynoJet: Clearly visible, the Rotrex consistently has significantly more TQ in the "daily driving/non-WOT" area, from 3k to 5.5k RPMs. Above 7k RPMs, only one of the Vortech's pulls has more TQ then the Rotrex, but as you can see the Rotrex setup remains very consistent (could be do to Air/Air Intercooling, Evolve tuning or the kits design as a whole). Now here is those two exact same cars, comparing their HP curves: Pretty obvious that these cars put down nearly identical HP curves, with the ESS/Vortech setup being rev'd out ~250 RPMs. What is interesting is once again the Rotrex/Evolve setup illustrated its consistency (settling in at 540 WHP) and the Vortech showed some variance (one pull at 540 WHP, another at 520 WHP). Recap: The Rotrex setup (Evolve 600 in this case) offers SIGNIFICANTLY more low-end, daily-usable TQ. This is an inherent benefit of the design of the Rotrex supercharger and is not disputable. IMO, the Rotrex better accentuates the driving feel of an N/A S65 only with an additional 200 WHP+. **Another thing worth noting is that both Rotrex kits utilizing Air/Air intercooling (while all of the Vortech setups use Air/Water) which appears better suited to the S65, more consistent, and more favorable for your driving style.
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Results > Last edited by Mit_Boost; 02-05-2014 at 12:52 PM.. |
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02-05-2014, 12:50 PM | #9 | |
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02-05-2014, 01:03 PM | #10 |
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EVOLVE...... nuff said..... why more people arent even considering it over ess / VF blows my mind.....
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02-05-2014, 01:13 PM | #11 |
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I'd go(and I did go) ESS for many reasons, in order:
-most proven performance and reliability -possibility of trasfering money of your N/A tune towards the s/c kit -better costumer services(in my case they've been top notch) -easiness and value of resale -better looking manifold I don't think you can go wrong with either, but one thing I know is that I've never seen an ESS costumer unsatisfied of their purchase, can't say the same with VF! |
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02-05-2014, 02:03 PM | #12 |
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Go here:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630463 and here: www.s65dynos.com Do your own research and comparisons, there are performance results in the first link and in the 2nd link you can download dyno files and compare highest results to highest results, not cherry pick one result with another. Having said that I think the mentioned companies, VF, ESS and Evolve have shown the performance capabilities of their kits. ESS and VF more so based on how long the kits have been out, and only one Evolve kit has posted excellent results, but they are still progressing with their kit and I suspect more good results will come. Good luck, and hope you enjoy it regardless of who you go with.
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02-05-2014, 02:30 PM | #13 |
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My vote go's to Evolve, best all around performance.
The Harrop would be my second only due to the low end, but i see too many high rpm drawbacks and its not out yet. If all the kits offer the same top-end, but one gives you more low-end, none as much as an N54, but significantly more, then the decision should be easy. Consistancy is another factor. Looks are subjective, but... Easy choice.. @Mit_Boost illustrated my sentiments as well. |
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02-05-2014, 02:35 PM | #14 |
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Straight up, A S/C M3 wont give you that crazy low end torque like the 335i did, but once you get in the power band .. be ready! lol
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02-05-2014, 02:36 PM | #15 |
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Be sure to check us as well!
The advanced design and sleek features of the Active Autowerke Supercharger System include a front mount air-to-air intercooler system with a separate oil cooler for the supercharger unit’s independent oil system. The Active Autowerke Supercharger Plenum replaces the factory air box and is designed to have an OEM-type look with custom finishes available at the customer’s request. The Active Autowerke Supercharger Plenum has been designed with eight high-flow velocity stacks, and large three inch intercooler piping to supply cooled air. The custom Active Autowerke Filter mounts to the supercharger unit and is enclosed in a custom intake box engineered to incorporate factory design while forcing cool air to the air box. The Active Autowerke Supercharger System is powered by a Rotrex C38-92 Supercharger Unit mounted with a custom CNC’ed bracket that uses a dedicated drive belt system, while eight high flow fuel injectors are used to supply the additional required fuel. Active Autowerke’s Performance Software, available for 91-93 octane, race gas, and octane levels unique to other countries, is carefully calibrated, and is at the heart of the system to provide an unparalleled driving experience. Keeping within the factory’s OBDII parameters, the Active Autowerke Supercharger System ensures consistency for everyday driving. Level 3 Performance Specs: (Crank) Horsepower: 700 HP Level 2 Performance Specs: (Crank) Horsepower: 640 HP Torque: 413 Ft Lbs Level 1 Performance Specs: (Crank) Horsepower: 560 HP Torque: 386 Ft Lbs |
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02-05-2014, 02:41 PM | #16 | |
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Best of luck with your decision.
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02-05-2014, 02:41 PM | #17 |
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nice to see that smoothing on ZERO!!!!! very nice andrew!!
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02-05-2014, 02:48 PM | #19 | |
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02-05-2014, 02:51 PM | #20 |
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Nope! I love it too much. It's my daily driver.
Just finished the suspension on my 911 and next I'll be doing a couple more bolt ons to add another 100 wheel HP. It will be my track/airstrip car going forward.
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02-05-2014, 02:59 PM | #21 | |
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Peak numbers are nice, and it's nice that the ESS & VF kits have both gone into the 10s, but here's some thing to consider:
Honestly, the Rotrex blower + Evolve's tuning has created one of the best, most enjoyable driving experience I've ever had in an E9x M3. As of right now, there are 2 more confirmed Evolve supercharger kits coming stateside, one of them going to @Bobs who also has driven LM's car so perhaps you'd like his commentary as well. Regarding peak power, it looks really cool to have a ridic dyno sheet and the bragging rights if have WR HP numbers. But I personally have a greater appreciation for "area under the curve" and a very wide (still strong) powerband vs. a WR HP car that makes great power for just 500-1k RPMs. Now area under the curve isn't as big of a "problem" with Centri Superchargers as it is with Turbo sizing (just go look at a dyno for some crazy 1500 WHP+ Supra and just look at how peaky the power is), but I believe it's a fair analogy when comparing the Vortech V3 and Rotrex C38.
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Results > Last edited by Mit_Boost; 02-05-2014 at 03:21 PM.. |
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02-05-2014, 03:03 PM | #22 | |
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I got to say I'm a bit sad that your 911 is your new airstip car , the videos of your M3 ripping the strip were the best, but I'll admit it your 911 is very fun to watch too, continu with the good work!! |
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