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      02-05-2014, 11:38 AM   #1
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supercharge /// ess or vf engineering

already searched this key word
and didn't find something useful

so
i bought the dct m3 2 month ago
stock for now.....

i'm still with my old 335 fbo
trying to sell it now...

the problem with the M is i miss the turbo kick
i dont like the drama and the high revs of the s65 motor

after few hours of reading here
i understand i need sc the motor

since than i tried to save me this power problems that we all share usually
and ordered the ess tune and ms test pipe
(it on the way....)
i'm feeling its not going to make big difference so.....
i dont want to wait and wait
i figure i will sc it now

the car is dd
i don't going to track it
just point a to b and some tripping on the weekends
my car produced in 10\2010 so i hope my rod bearing will hold the abuse..
thinking on safe power, seems like 600hp will be more than enough for now

i read a lot about the ess kits
and seems like they r the popular choice by the forum members
and damn, the kit looks good!!!!

i also read about the vf kits
and see their cooling method that looks very efficient
and read about the company(they have a lot of sc kits for great cars)
although this kits look like s**t (manifold)

seems that they both offer the same power gains
so what the hell i should pick and why??


sorry upfront for the pandora box i'm opening here
but i hope i will get some answers
thanks
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      02-05-2014, 11:46 AM   #2
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have you looked at the Evolve unit?
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      02-05-2014, 11:48 AM   #3
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sell the m3. keep your fbo 335 if you like the torque and don't want to rev your motor out.

both kits use the same centri supercharger. they will be virtually identical in their power delivery, and you'll still need to wring them out to make max power & torque.
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      02-05-2014, 12:06 PM   #4
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If you already have the ESS tune, the cable cost can be applied to the purchase of the kit, saving some $$ in the process.

We're having a blast with our ESS VT2-625 kit, here's a recent post of our experience at the drags:



EAS | Famoso Drag Strip results: Just .004 away from 10-second territory!
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=942435
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      02-05-2014, 12:16 PM   #5
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Cable is negligible when talking 12k Tom. To the OP, both kits are great. VF held the world 1/4 record for years 10.69s with a VF620. A ESS-625 broke that with a 10.65s I believe. These kits both deliver. I'm running a VF650 and very much like it.
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      02-05-2014, 12:26 PM   #6
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I strongly suggest you read this thread before seriously considering VF...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=845593
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      02-05-2014, 12:33 PM   #7
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VF= very Fast
Very fun
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      02-05-2014, 12:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OMRITIME View Post
i'm still with my old 335 fbo
trying to sell it now...

the problem with the M is i miss the turbo kick
i dont like the drama and the high revs of the s65 motor
If you miss the low-end TQ punch you get with the 335, then stick with it -- The only way you'll get that feeling is with a Twin Turbo or Whipple/Twin Screw Supercharger. Currently the E9x M3 market only offers Centri Supercharger setups, so none of them are going to give you that "throw you in the back of your seat" feeling.


BUT if you want to supercharge your M, here's some data worth considering before you make a final decision:

As of right now, there are 2 kits using the Rotrex C38 supercharger (Evolve & Active Autowerke) and they have the best TQ numbers (that's a fact). The Vortech kits aren't bad by any means (they've power the 2 M3s that have gone in the 10s in the 1/4 mile), but you're not going to get any low end punch from them because of their design. They are internally different from each other (Rotrex = Planetary vs Vortech = Fixed Gear Supercharger) and the higher CFM the Vortech (requires higher higher boost/RPMs for it to come "alive"). Here's a dyno overlay illustrating the TQ values of an Evolve 600 (Rotrex C38 at 6.7psi peak, labeled "Evolve") and ESS 625 (Vortech V3 at 7psi peak, labeled "RunFile") both run on a DynoJet:


Clearly visible, the Rotrex consistently has significantly more TQ in the "daily driving/non-WOT" area, from 3k to 5.5k RPMs. Above 7k RPMs, only one of the Vortech's pulls has more TQ then the Rotrex, but as you can see the Rotrex setup remains very consistent (could be do to Air/Air Intercooling, Evolve tuning or the kits design as a whole).

Now here is those two exact same cars, comparing their HP curves:

Pretty obvious that these cars put down nearly identical HP curves, with the ESS/Vortech setup being rev'd out ~250 RPMs. What is interesting is once again the Rotrex/Evolve setup illustrated its consistency (settling in at 540 WHP) and the Vortech showed some variance (one pull at 540 WHP, another at 520 WHP).


Recap: The Rotrex setup (Evolve 600 in this case) offers SIGNIFICANTLY more low-end, daily-usable TQ. This is an inherent benefit of the design of the Rotrex supercharger and is not disputable. IMO, the Rotrex better accentuates the driving feel of an N/A S65 only with an additional 200 WHP+.

**Another thing worth noting is that both Rotrex kits utilizing Air/Air intercooling (while all of the Vortech setups use Air/Water) which appears better suited to the S65, more consistent, and more favorable for your driving style.
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      02-05-2014, 12:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit_Boost View Post
If you miss the low-end TQ punch you get with the 335, then stick with it -- The only way you'll get that feeling is with a Twin Turbo or Whipple/Twin Screw Supercharger. Currently the E9x M3 market only offers Centri Supercharger setups, so none of them are going to give you that "throw you in the back of your seat" feeling.


BUT if you want to supercharge your M, here's some data worth considering before you make a final decision:

As of right now, there are 2 kits using the Rotrex C38 supercharger (Evolve & Active Autowerke) and they have the best TQ numbers (that's a fact). The Vortech kits aren't bad by any means (they've power the 2 M3s that have gone in the 10s in the 1/4 mile), but you're not going to get any low end punch from them because of their design. They are internally different from each other (Rotrex = Planetary vs Vortech = Fixed Gear Supercharger) and the higher CFM the Vortech (requires higher higher boost/RPMs for it to come "alive"). Here's a dyno overlay illustrating the TQ values of an Evolve 600 (Rotrex C38 at 6.7psi peak, labeled "Evolve") and ESS 625 (Vortech V3 at 7psi peak, labeled "RunFile") both run on a DynoJet:


Clearly visible, the Rotrex consistently has significantly more TQ in the "daily driving/non-WOT" area, from 3k to 5.5k RPMs. Above 7k RPMs, only one of the Vortech's pulls has more TQ then the Rotrex, but as you can see the Rotrex setup remains very consistent (could be do to Air/Air Intercooling, Evolve tuning or the kits design as a whole).

Now here is those two exact same cars, comparing their HP curves:

EVEN more visible, is that these cars but down nearly identical HP curves, with the ESS/Vortech setup being rev'd out ~250 RPMs. Regardless, both cars peak in the 535 WHP area.


So recap. The Rotrex setup (Evolve in this case) offers SIGNIFICANTLY more low-end, daily-usable TQ. This is an inherent benefit of the design of the Rotrex supercharger and is not disputable. IMO, the Rotrex better accentuates the driving feel of an N/A S65 only with an additional 200 WHP+. Another thing worth noting is that both Rotrex kits utilizing Air/Air intercooling (while all of the Vortech setups use Air/Water) which appears better suited to the S65, more consistent, and more favorable for your driving style.
Mit out of curiosity, have you personally driven a Evolve S/C car? Honestly. Or just going by numbers? (Not an attack, I think Evolve make great products and do a lot of R&D, but so do ESS and VF, both of whom have proven kits and hold world records in 1/4mile and/or HP)
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      02-05-2014, 01:03 PM   #10
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EVOLVE...... nuff said..... why more people arent even considering it over ess / VF blows my mind.....
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      02-05-2014, 01:13 PM   #11
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I'd go(and I did go) ESS for many reasons, in order:

-most proven performance and reliability
-possibility of trasfering money of your N/A tune towards the s/c kit
-better costumer services(in my case they've been top notch)
-easiness and value of resale
-better looking manifold

I don't think you can go wrong with either, but one thing I know is that I've never seen an ESS costumer unsatisfied of their purchase, can't say the same with VF!
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      02-05-2014, 02:03 PM   #12
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Go here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630463

and here:

www.s65dynos.com

Do your own research and comparisons, there are performance results in the first link and in the 2nd link you can download dyno files and compare highest results to highest results, not cherry pick one result with another.

Having said that I think the mentioned companies, VF, ESS and Evolve have shown the performance capabilities of their kits. ESS and VF more so based on how long the kits have been out, and only one Evolve kit has posted excellent results, but they are still progressing with their kit and I suspect more good results will come. Good luck, and hope you enjoy it regardless of who you go with.
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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ
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      02-05-2014, 02:30 PM   #13
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My vote go's to Evolve, best all around performance.

The Harrop would be my second only due to the low end, but i see too many high rpm drawbacks and its not out yet.

If all the kits offer the same top-end, but one gives you more low-end, none as much as an N54, but significantly more, then the decision should be easy.

Consistancy is another factor. Looks are subjective, but...





Easy choice..

@Mit_Boost illustrated my sentiments as well.
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      02-05-2014, 02:35 PM   #14
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Straight up, A S/C M3 wont give you that crazy low end torque like the 335i did, but once you get in the power band .. be ready! lol
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      02-05-2014, 02:36 PM   #15
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Be sure to check us as well!




The advanced design and sleek features of the Active Autowerke Supercharger System include a front mount air-to-air intercooler system with a separate oil cooler for the supercharger unit’s independent oil system. The Active Autowerke Supercharger Plenum replaces the factory air box and is designed to have an OEM-type look with custom finishes available at the customer’s request. The Active Autowerke Supercharger Plenum has been designed with eight high-flow velocity stacks, and large three inch intercooler piping to supply cooled air.

The custom Active Autowerke Filter mounts to the supercharger unit and is enclosed in a custom intake box engineered to incorporate factory design while forcing cool air to the air box.

The Active Autowerke Supercharger System is powered by a Rotrex C38-92 Supercharger Unit mounted with a custom CNC’ed bracket that uses a dedicated drive belt system, while eight high flow fuel injectors are used to supply the additional required fuel. Active Autowerke’s Performance Software, available for 91-93 octane, race gas, and octane levels unique to other countries, is carefully calibrated, and is at the heart of the system to provide an unparalleled driving experience. Keeping within the factory’s OBDII parameters, the Active Autowerke Supercharger System ensures consistency for everyday driving.





Level 3
Performance Specs: (Crank)
Horsepower: 700 HP



Level 2
Performance Specs: (Crank)
Horsepower: 640 HP
Torque: 413 Ft Lbs



Level 1
Performance Specs: (Crank)
Horsepower: 560 HP
Torque: 386 Ft Lbs




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      02-05-2014, 02:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OMRITIME View Post
already searched this key word
and didn't find something useful

so
i bought the dct m3 2 month ago
stock for now.....

i'm still with my old 335 fbo
trying to sell it now...

the problem with the M is i miss the turbo kick
i dont like the drama and the high revs of the s65 motor

after few hours of reading here
i understand i need sc the motor

since than i tried to save me this power problems that we all share usually
and ordered the ess tune and ms test pipe
(it on the way....)
i'm feeling its not going to make big difference so.....
i dont want to wait and wait
i figure i will sc it now

the car is dd
i don't going to track it
just point a to b and some tripping on the weekends
my car produced in 10\2010 so i hope my rod bearing will hold the abuse..
thinking on safe power, seems like 600hp will be more than enough for now

i read a lot about the ess kits
and seems like they r the popular choice by the forum members
and damn, the kit looks good!!!!

i also read about the vf kits
and see their cooling method that looks very efficient
and read about the company(they have a lot of sc kits for great cars)
although this kits look like s**t (manifold)

seems that they both offer the same power gains
so what the hell i should pick and why??


sorry upfront for the pandora box i'm opening here
but i hope i will get some answers
thanks
I've had an ESS kit (started with 625 and upgraded to 650) and I have beat the crap out of my car with many hard track and airstrip miles. I've never had one issue with the car. Not one check engine light, not one code, not one problem. Nothing. Just a fantastic reliable product that kicks ass. I'll just leave you with a couple vids:







Best of luck with your decision.
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      02-05-2014, 02:41 PM   #17
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nice to see that smoothing on ZERO!!!!! very nice andrew!!
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      02-05-2014, 02:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
nice to see that smoothing on ZERO!!!!! very nice andrew!!
Thanks for noticing that.
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      02-05-2014, 02:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
I've had an ESS kit (started with 625 and upgraded to 650) and I have beat the crap out of my car with many hard track and airstrip miles. I've never had one issue with the car. Not one check engine light, not one code, not one problem. Nothing. Just a fantastic reliable product that kicks ass. I'll just leave you with a couple vids:







Best of luck with your decision.
Hey Adam, how are you, did you got rid of your M3!?
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      02-05-2014, 02:51 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
Hey Adam, how are you, did you got rid of your M3!?
Nope! I love it too much. It's my daily driver.

Just finished the suspension on my 911 and next I'll be doing a couple more bolt ons to add another 100 wheel HP. It will be my track/airstrip car going forward.
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      02-05-2014, 02:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8k3 View Post
Mit out of curiosity, have you personally driven a Evolve S/C car? Honestly. Or just going by numbers? (Not an attack, I think Evolve make great products and do a lot of R&D, but so do ESS and VF, both of whom have proven kits and hold world records in 1/4mile and/or HP)
I have... And I've also driven an ESS car, and it's reflected in my statements. Luckily being in NJ, LostMarine (one of the Evolve-600 owners) isn't too far away and is ALWAYS willing to let people try out his setup.

Peak numbers are nice, and it's nice that the ESS & VF kits have both gone into the 10s, but here's some thing to consider:
  • The ESS, VF & Gintani Setups -- The ESS/Gintani setups have both been on sale since 2009; the VF a little later, but ALL use the V3 supercharger. This has given them nearly 4 years of time to hit the market, get TONS of kits in users hands and set some records. Evolve released their kit just the middle of last year and (going by the confirmed forum "reports") only have 2 kits on US cars, with 1 of them really providing performance "testing", but...
  • The Evolve's Accomplisments -- That 1 car doing some concrete "testing" has put itself in VERY good company performance wise, a 7.03 60-130 on the 600 BHP kit (an Evolve offers 2 higher stages, 620 + 650). I honestly expect once the tracks open up again this year, that LM will put that Evolve setup into the low-11s/maybe 10s in the 1/4.
  • Blower Sizing -- The Rotrex supercharger has shown to be very efficient and build boost very quickly (part of the design), meaning you can really feel the power everywhere in the RPM range instead of ringing it out to 8k everytime.

Honestly, the Rotrex blower + Evolve's tuning has created one of the best, most enjoyable driving experience I've ever had in an E9x M3. As of right now, there are 2 more confirmed Evolve supercharger kits coming stateside, one of them going to @Bobs who also has driven LM's car so perhaps you'd like his commentary as well.

Regarding peak power, it looks really cool to have a ridic dyno sheet and the bragging rights if have WR HP numbers. But I personally have a greater appreciation for "area under the curve" and a very wide (still strong) powerband vs. a WR HP car that makes great power for just 500-1k RPMs. Now area under the curve isn't as big of a "problem" with Centri Superchargers as it is with Turbo sizing (just go look at a dyno for some crazy 1500 WHP+ Supra and just look at how peaky the power is), but I believe it's a fair analogy when comparing the Vortech V3 and Rotrex C38.
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      02-05-2014, 03:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Nope! I love it too much. It's my daily driver.

Just finished the suspension on my 911 and next I'll be doing a couple more bolt ons to add another 100 wheel HP. It will be my track/airstrip car going forward.
Ahh ok, it's your I've had that confused me a bit, I knew you love your M3 a lot but with the other beast you have it would've been completly understandable if you've got rid of it!

I got to say I'm a bit sad that your 911 is your new airstip car , the videos of your M3 ripping the strip were the best, but I'll admit it your 911 is very fun to watch too, continu with the good work!!
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