BMW M3 vs Porsche Carrera which is Quicker

[devo]

Originally Posted by FStop7

I was recently down in Mexico and raced a 997 GT3RS (the 2007-2008 version) from 80-120. It was a draw. The Porsche was stock and I had a front cat delete, MS filter, Rogue pulley, and RPI rear exhaust.

[yemenmocha]

15 second gap on the 'ring is not the same league.

In fact, the e46M3 is around 15 seconds behind the e92M3. Similar gap between a current 997S to the e92M3 as there is between the e92M3 and the previous generation M3.

I'm going to start going around saying how my 2006 M3 is only 15 seconds behind the current M3, so really they're rather close in performance overall.

[M3 vert]

Originally Posted by yemenmocha

15 second gap on the 'ring is not the same league.

In fact, the e46M3 is around 15 seconds behind the e92M3. Similar gap between a current 997S to the e92M3 as there is between the e92M3 and the previous generation M3.

I'm going to start going around saying how my 2006 M3 is only 15 seconds behind the current M3, so really they're rather close in performance overall.

Well is that the 997 Carerra or 997 Carerra S? I suspect its the latter.

I was thinking you guys are comparing a Base Carerra vs E92 M3, which clearly wins the hearts of car and driver and many other auto journalists!

However, maybe you can post those ring times where the E92 lags 15 seconds behind the 997S or 997 basic? Thats a lot of TIME considering they are neck to neck and the e92 being better in some categories!

[yemenmocha]

Originally Posted by M3 vert

...Thats a lot of TIME considering they are neck to neck and the e92 being better in some categories!

You have it bassackwards. They're 15 seconds apart on what is widely considered to be a benchmark track. Therefore they are not so similar in overall performance. Therefore they are not "neck to neck".

I could point out how my e46M3 is within several tenths of a second on the 0-60 compared to the e92. But it is silly overall. My car is 15 seconds behind the new M3 on the 'ring. This is a rather large margin.

[devo]

Originally Posted by M3 vert

Well is that the 997 Carerra or 997 Carerra S? I suspect its the latter.

I was thinking you guys are comparing a Base Carerra vs E92 M3, which clearly wins the hearts of car and driver and many other auto journalists!

However, maybe you can post those ring times where the E92 lags 15 seconds behind the 997S or 997 basic? Thats a lot of TIME considering they are neck to neck and the e92 being better in some categories!

The original question did ask which was faster. According to the vid above -or at least the part I saw- showed the base Carrera being the faster car.

For the record, although I'd personally pick the .2 S or > anyday -even given the higher price- I go with the M over a base Carrera by a narrow margin. I don't like the higher body and narrower tires on 18" wheels of the base model. Add a marginal savings and I likely go with the M. I still feel the Porsche has an edge in build quality and paint.

And, yes 15 seconds is night and day. These 0-60 tests are absolutely meaningless. Elasticity, 0/5- >100, 1/4 runs, longer tracks ala Ring, etc.. really tests a car's character.

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by yemenmocha

You have it bassackwards. They're 15 seconds apart on what is widely considered to be a benchmark track. Therefore they are not so similar in overall performance. Therefore they are not "neck to neck".

I could point out how my e46M3 is within several tenths of a second on the 0-60 compared to the e92. But it is silly overall. My car is 15 seconds behind the new M3 on the 'ring. This is a rather large margin.

He said that base carerra and e92 are neck-in-neck, which is true. The 15 second difference is between e92 and Carerra S, not the base one.

By the way, can M3's much lower top speed limiter be a factor in this difference? Is M3 hitting the 150MPH limiter on the ring? Seems like it should in more than one place. Carrera would not have such an issue.

[M3Fool]

The video posted by M5board is shit........... that guy could not drive. The Porsche being the faster car, I agree..... still should not have pulled him by 3-5 car lengths.

[M3 vert]

Originally Posted by MaxL

He said that base carerra and e92 are neck-in-neck, which is true. The 15 second difference is between e92 and Carerra S, not the base one.

By the way, can M3's much lower top speed limiter be a factor in this difference? Is M3 hitting the 150MPH limiter on the ring? Seems like it should in more than one place. Carrera would not have such an issue.

+ 1

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._bmw_m3_page_3

Infact heres a line from page 3 of that article I posted:

Call it insulation, or call it stupendous competence, but the M3 chewed 1.1 seconds off the 911’s best Laguna lap time and was quicker through the lane-change maneuver.

So I think the base carerra is almost similar if not slower then the e92 M3!

And for the record I think I would stick with expert auto journalist's opinion then a bunch of unexperienced drivers driving on an empty airstrip with no skill!

[Sniper78]

driving a PDK Porsche does not need any special skills, PDK will still shift by itself when it hits redline (thats in manual mode with Sport Plus on & Taction off) a DCT M3 will not do that, so it needs very good skills to shift at redline.

[pride355]

The Carrera S which is claimed to be 15 sec faster than E92 M3 on NoS had cup tires + Sport PASM + PCCB + Racing buckets.

It is the fastest and lightest 911 Carrera S w/PDK you can get from the Factory.

On the other hand 8:05 time of M3 coupe was done in a manual car with street tires. Competiton pack is rumoured to cut 5 sec off the NoS time. So an M3 with comp. pack laps the Ring in 8:00. Throw in some cup tires and it will break the 8 min. barrier.

Don't forget that 2003 model M3 CSL had lapped the Ring in 7:50 which was faster than former 911 GT3. That car had cup tires, too but it is now 7 years old. And don't forget that NoS is getting faster as they replaced the asphalt on part of the track.

[devo]

The M3 did not have a speed limiter in that Ring test but DID have a DCT transmission. I do not believe that the C2S had the lighter (carbon) sport buckets.

[devo]

Originally Posted by M3 vert

+ 1

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._bmw_m3_page_3

Infact heres a line from page 3 of that article I posted:

Call it insulation, or call it stupendous competence, but the M3 chewed 1.1 seconds off the 911’s best Laguna lap time and was quicker through the lane-change maneuver.

So I think the base carerra is almost similar if not slower then the e92 M3!

And for the record I think I would stick with expert auto journalist's opinion then a bunch of unexperienced drivers driving on an empty airstrip with no skill!

What criteria is used to determeine that these guys are "experts"?

The E92 M3 may be and likely is faster in some situations and quite possibly Laguna. However, the track suits the M3 which is fine. Again it is not faster 0-60 in the previous test provided. I'd like to see a real Ring test. The only real car jounalists' are guys like Harris and the Sport Auto crew imo. Test like C&D's are close to comical; far too full of subjective opinions. You know from the start that they are BMW biased.

It's been said countless times before but the M's brakes will not hold up to task after countless laps, whereas the Porsche's will. This point is well documented.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Sniper78

driving a PDK Porsche does not need any special skills, PDK will still shift by itself when it hits redline (thats in manual mode with Sport Plus on & Taction off) a DCT M3 will not do that, so it needs very good skills to shift at redline.

What really special skills does a M driver need to shift an automated tranmission?

So, you're suggesting that the Porsche driver just bangs off redline without any skill and the car shifts optimally.

It is a BMW M forum but c'mon!

[graider]

i would pick the m3 over the base 997. 997 s over m3 for sure though, unless rear seat with focus to fit real adult is a concern.

saw a 997 s lower on aftermarket rims, aggresive looking.

[pride355]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I wont get into that CSL time, but its an anomaly and was never reproduced.
The 997S did not have bucket seats, but did have PDK, sport chrono IIRC.
The M3 test they did ALSO HAS CUP+ tires, better brake pads and DCT too IIRC, so they are apples to apples.
Even the 2006 997S ran 7:59.



+1.

That 2006 997 S had -20 mm Sports chassie which as far as I know, never make it to the States.
997.1 Carrera S with PASM did 8:02 in sport mode and 8:05 in normal. My times can be off by 1 sec.

That Sport Auto Car, the red M3 coupe was manual. At that time, there was no DKG.

[yemenmocha]

There's a lot of wasted time here. Fanboys are not going to see it, no matter how good the points are made.

Maybe it's not so different than the Camaro folks ripping on the BMW owners like we saw in that other thread. Something psychological going on towards that next car above yours that is a bit out of reach.

[pride355]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I wont get into that CSL time, but its an anomaly and was never reproduced.
The 997S did not have bucket seats, but did have PDK, sport chrono IIRC.
The M3 test they did ALSO HAS CUP+ tires, better brake pads and DCT too IIRC, so they are apples to apples.
Even the 2006 997S ran 7:59.

You may check the Ring times here:
http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID...3&viewThread=y

Also, 8:02 time was done by Walter Rohl BUT 8:05 time was done by Horst V.Sourma (12/07)

About the Carrera S that lapped the Ring in 7:50,
that car had all the possible performance options: PDK + Sport Chrono + S PASM + LSD + PCCB + cup tires and as far as I know the GT2 seats.

Nevertheless, my point is that 997.2 Carrera S is not 15 sec faster on the Ring than E92 M3.
However, it is faster on a straight line if the car is equipped with PDK.
On a track, Carrera is a better car, IMO, lap after lap due to lower weight and much better brakes.

I had 2 E46 M3s and a 997.1 Carrera S Coupe w/manual tranny + Sports chassie. I tracked all 3 cars, so I experienced them both.

Now, I have an order for MY11 M3 Coupe. Both cars have pros and cons.

As for the title question:
E92 M3 is faster than 911 Carrera BUT slower than 911 Carrera S if you look at 0-250 km/h or 100-250 km/h times.

However, even 997.2 Carrera w/PDK + SC may be faster 0-60 km/h than M3 due to better traction at the rear tires.

[pride355]

Originally Posted by shift@red

You are pretty spot on in most of this.

The 997S IS 15 seconds faster though. Also, it DID NOT have GT2 seats.

When the m3 ran the 8:05 it has cup+ tires, EDC, and IIRC better brake pads. Was probably a minimally optioned car to save weight too.

997 carrera with a 6mt and m3 6mt are about the same...997 pdk vs m3 dct the 997 is slightly faster at the top end.

My point is that an E92 M3 equipped with DKG and competition pack running on cup tires would do under 8:00 in the Ring. It may still be slower than 7:50 time but it will be a close call.

[pride355]

Here is another data for you all:

http://www.insideline.com/porsche/91...-the-ring.html

[pride355]

1 more thing:

In latest Sport Auto test of E92 M3 DKG Competition pack. vs RS5, M3 lapped the the Hockenheim short track 1:14,2 on street tires which is 0,1 sec faster than previous E92 M3 test that was on cup tires.

997.1 Carrera S did it in 1:14,3 in another Sport Auto test (05/2005)
997.2 Carrera S with PDK would probably faster though.

With all of these data, I'm NOT claiming that M3 is faster than Carrera S.
My only claim is that M3 is NOT THAT SLOWER THAN Carrera S.
They are close, but Porsche has the edge.

[devo]

Originally Posted by pride355

1 more thing:

In latest Sport Auto test of E92 M3 DKG Competition pack. vs RS5, M3 lapped the the Hockenheim short track 1:14,2 on street tires which is 0,1 sec faster than previous E92 M3 test that was on cup tires.

997.1 Carrera S did it in 1:14,3 in another Sport Auto test (05/2005)
997.2 Carrera S with PDK would probably faster though.

With all of these data, I'm NOT claiming that M3 is faster than Carrera S.
My only claim is that M3 is NOT THAT SLOWER THAN Carrera S.
They are close, but Porsche has the edge.

I too think you are pretty much right on with your numbers wth one exception that the .2 PDK S IS faster than the M; so yes the M is SLOWER. Not by a boatload but enough to matter. Even 7-8 seconds at the Ring is pretty hefty at the level these cars are playing at. I may own a GT3 but still love M cars.

[devo]

Originally Posted by graider

i would pick the m3 over the base 997. 997 s over m3 for sure though, unless rear seat with focus to fit real adult is a concern.

saw a 997 s lower on aftermarket rims, aggresive looking.

I agree an M over the .2 base 997. If one one is going 911 then go with the S or above.