Texas Trifecta II March 21-23 Circuit of the Americas

[dbyrd]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

saw your car at grid... .... love the way your Arc-8 wheels match the car.

Thanks, the NT-01s made a huge difference, but I need more camber up front soon.

Big thanks to BMW CCA. I had a great instructor (JP), and finally met Bigjae and several other really cool guys including Caleb.

I'm afraid I have the bug, and I'll be back ASAP. I can't make MSR next month, but hope to see y'all at the track soon.

-Daniel

[bigjae1976]

Nice to meet you Dan! You were tearing it up out there.

I also met Triple M, kaleb and a couple of M3Forum guys. Always cool putting faces to screen names!

[03BeastCharmer]

Fun time. Sunday morning I got Solo'd (Thanks Mr. Adjuster) and had a great time, and improved my lap time from last year by about about 7 seconds while feeling more comfortable. Surlynkid, I didn't see you, but I spotted your car as your wife was in my run group.

I tried out the M Laptimer, I like the data (got 3-4 mpg on the back straight), but I still prefer Harry's (except for draining my battery). I'm still trying to figure out how to reset the start finish on the M Laptimer, as it thinks it's on the back straight.

dbryd - Were you number 13? I wanted to apologize to the white E90 in blue's last session that I gave the late point by going into 12, and then we both really slowed down at the apex trying to make sure we didn't hit each other. I should have just waited to give the point coming out of the carousel.

Originally Posted by surlynkid

I am still digging through my old college math books to figure out how the four 25 minute sessions that were converted to three 30 minute sessions (to give us more track time) really turned into three 25 minute sessions. Interesting math.

Track time was cut short.

[gobuffs]

Originally Posted by surlynkid

I am still digging through my old college math books to figure out how the four 25 minute sessions that were converted to three 30 minute sessions (to give us more track time) really turned into three 25 minute sessions. Interesting math.

Track time was cut short.

(2*20)+(2*25)= (3*30) 4 sessions have more warm up and cool down time so 3 sessions gives more time at speed. That is the reason there were 3 sessions rather than 4. Lessons learned from PCA- change over time can be huge at COTA. People need to not do half speed cool down laps. If a group caused lost track time, COTA was instructed to take that time from that group's next session than from all groups....so blame your fellow drivers.

The one comment from COTA control was many cars that broke down didn't have toe hooks and that easily wasted 30-45 min each day. We will probably require toe hooks already installed next year.

[Brent Dalton]

Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer

Fun time. Sunday morning I got Solo'd (Thanks Mr. Adjuster) and had a great time, and improved my lap time from last year by about about 7 seconds while feeling more comfortable. Surlynkid, I didn't see you, but I spotted your car as your wife was in my run group.

I tried out the M Laptimer, I like the data (got 3-4 mpg on the back straight), but I still prefer Harry's (except for draining my battery). I'm still trying to figure out how to reset the start finish on the M Laptimer, as it thinks it's on the back straight.

dbryd - Were you number 13? I wanted to apologize to the white E90 in blue's last session that I gave the late point by going into 12, and then we both really slowed down at the apex trying to make sure we didn't hit each other. I should have just waited to give the point coming out of the carousel.

Enjoyed getting to ride shotgun with you!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by gobuffs

(2*20)+(2*25)= (3*30) 4 sessions have more warm up and cool down time so 3 sessions gives more time at speed. That is the reason there were 3 sessions rather than 4. Lessons learned from PCA- change over time can be huge at COTA. People need to not do half speed cool down laps. If a group caused lost track time, COTA was instructed to take that time from that group's next session than from all groups....so blame your fellow drivers.

The one comment from COTA control was many cars that broke down didn't have toe hooks and that easily wasted 30-45 min each day. We will probably require toe hooks already installed next year.

As far as breakdowns go, while brakes tend to take a beating...I think COTA really stresses your drivetrain far more than any other track. I had cooling issues anytime it was over 60 degrees. I've seen more blown engines there after T12 than I've seen at any other track. 6 days at COTA, I've counted 11 engine or diff failures.

Honestly, I saw minimal brake and tire wear. Comparatively...I had to lost a 1/2 qt of oil after the event.

[surlynkid]

^^ my engine and drivetrain and brakes were just peachy. At 12 I could smell all the cars trying to make it work on street pads or stock/street pads which is an oxymoron. Race pads are called that for a reason. I could hit 155 on the speedo and still wait til after the 150 marker to get on the brakes.

Had both tow hooks in both cars as well.

Killed some Hoosiers as planned but neither of our cars got much tire wear.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

As far as breakdowns go, while brakes tend to take a beating...I think COTA really stresses your drivetrain far more than any other track. I had cooling issues anytime it was over 60 degrees. I've seen more blown engines there after T12 than I've seen at any other track. 6 days at COTA, I've counted 11 engine or diff failures.

Honestly, I saw minimal brake and tire wear. Comparatively...I had to lost a 1/2 qt of oil after the event.

Agree on the drivetrain..... we have seen several E9x M3 expire at COTA.

One last year.... F1 style with flames out the back... and another 2 this year. Luckily.. the two owners that lost motors this year are still in the warranty period. Oddly.. this year we had more failures with better temps.... it was far cooler this year in March than any day in June last year.

I believe a C6 vette lost a motor... along with one or 2 911s.. one was a GT3 with either damaged radiator from an OTE or a known GT3 cooling issue. An E36 lost it's differential and another E46 had a clutch failure.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by surlynkid

I am still digging through my old college math books to figure out how the four 25 minute sessions that were converted to three 30 minute sessions (to give us more track time) really turned into three 25 minute sessions. Interesting math.

Track time was cut short.

Surly.. (aptly named) .... sorry... but the track time was as planned.

I am digging through my ENGLISH books and reviewing the event website trying to find where anyone PROMISED you four 25 minute sessions... The event schedule was posted at texastrifecta.com well in advance of the cancellation date... so if you were really that upset about 10 minutes of track time... then you should have cancelled prior to March 1st.



As gobuffs indicated... when you take in to account that 3-5 minutes of a 20 minute session include the in lap and out lap of that extra session... your complaint over 5 minutes of " lost" track time ( that you promised yourself ! ) seems really small.

Originally Posted by surlynkid

^^ my engine and drivetrain and brakes were just peachy. At 12 I could smell all the cars trying to make it work on street pads or stock/street pads which is an oxymoron. Race pads are called that for a reason. I could hit 155 on the speedo and still wait til after the 150 marker to get on the brakes.

Had both tow hooks in both cars as well.

Killed some Hoosiers as planned but neither of our cars got much tire wear.

Agree.. braking at the 150 ft brake marker works for me at 150 mph indicated on the speedo.... using STREET pads (PFC- Z). My set of PFC-08s didnt make it out of the box since I was focusing on making YOUR day go as well as possible.

[jml]

I had a great time. The RS didn't blow up this year

While I was a bit "surly" at certain points of the weekend:
- I tried to "do" the garage deal we end up right off the bat on fri, only to be told it was a stupid idea by a certain person
- Trains in instructor 1 group/no passing signals from most people from 2-9
- the 45min instructor session at 5:15 on Sunday, ended up being only 15min - on track at 5:40 and off at 5:55...and I was tired, but trying to show off to a friend I mountain bike with.

I thought given the curve balls from COTA and broken cars, you guys did a wonderful job, and it was one of the best COTA DEs i've been to. Thanks for making it happen and all the hard work/dealing with bitchy folks...i don't think 99% of people know how much work it is, and the fact that most is done by volunteers.

[dbyrd]

Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer

dbryd - Were you number 13? I wanted to apologize to the white E90 in blue's last session that I gave the late point by going into 12, and then we both really slowed down at the apex trying to make sure we didn't hit each other. I should have just waited to give the point coming out of the carousel.

I was #17 in a Sparkling Graphite e90 so that wasn't me, but thanks. Great manners and safe driving in the blue run group - I almost hate to go to yellow. Probably the best time I've had at a HPDE -

Who knows where to find info about the COTA event in June?

See y'all next time.
-Daniel

[gobuffs]

The DE committee is ALL volunteers, but there are perks.

What event in June?

[dbyrd]

Originally Posted by gobuffs

The DE committee is ALL volunteers, but there are perks.

What event in June?

I heard that Driver's Edge under another name - something Edge is running COTA in June. I hope that I'm not spreading false rumors, but I heard several guys talking about this at COTA. Any info is most appreciated.

[surlynkid]

M3 Adjuster said..........Surly.. (aptly named) .... sorry... but the track time was as planned.


Surlyn

http://www2.dupont.com/Surlyn/en_US/


I am digging through my ENGLISH books and reviewing the event website trying to find where anyone PROMISED you four 25 minute sessions...

From Bruce's post on Track Junkies dated Jan 31 and copied below. I didn't need any English books to understand that.


Students groups have 3 30 min sessions each day. We did this to maximize on track time as the first lap and cool down laps take soooo much time at COTA. Amount of track time each day is equal to what we would have with 4 sessions.

The event schedule was posted at texastrifecta.com well in advance of the cancellation date... so if you were really that upset about 10 minutes of track time... then you should have cancelled prior to March 1st.

At the end of the day, this is really a BMWCCA race at COTA that is subsidized by a DE that gets 75% of the track time of a normal DE to squeeze in race groups. Separate the two. I will no longer attend TWS PDS events that run in conjunction with a race, as I pay the same and get a lot less.


As gobuffs indicated... when you take in to account that 3-5 minutes of a 20 minute session include the in lap and out lap of that extra session... your complaint over 5 minutes of " lost" track time ( that you promised yourself ! ) seems really small.

This would have been easily solved by not showing checker until T11, but it went out at Start/Finish. Do you really expect me to drive hard from Start/Finish to T11 if I know it is over? The track was supposed to go green at T11 and checker at T11. Showing me checker at Start/Finish slows me down after T20.


Agree.. braking at the 150 ft brake marker works for me at 150 mph indicated on the speedo.... using STREET pads (PFC- Z). My set of PFC-08s didnt make it out of the box since I was focusing on making YOUR day go as well as possible.

Then you should have brought the car by garage 24 during my 5 hour break. I would have swapped them and still taken a nap. I work on my friends' cars when they need help. Your brakes would have taken 20 minutes.

[surlynkid]

Originally Posted by dbyrd

I heard that Driver's Edge under another name - something Edge is running COTA in June. I hope that I'm not spreading false rumors, but I heard several guys talking about this at COTA. Any info is most appreciated.

need to know basis....................

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by surlynkid

M3 Adjuster said..........Surly.. (aptly named) .... sorry... but the track time was as planned.


Surlyn

http://www2.dupont.com/Surlyn/en_US/


I am digging through my ENGLISH books and reviewing the event website trying to find where anyone PROMISED you four 25 minute sessions...

From Bruce's post on Track Junkies dated Jan 31 and copied below. I didn't need any English books to understand that.


Students groups have 3 30 min sessions each day. We did this to maximize on track time as the first lap and cool down laps take soooo much time at COTA. Amount of track time each day is equal to what we would have with 4 sessions.

The event schedule was posted at texastrifecta.com well in advance of the cancellation date... so if you were really that upset about 10 minutes of track time... then you should have cancelled prior to March 1st.

At the end of the day, this is really a BMWCCA race at COTA that is subsidized by a DE that gets 75% of the track time of a normal DE to squeeze in race groups. Separate the two. I will no longer attend TWS PDS events that run in conjunction with a race, as I pay the same and get a lot less.


As gobuffs indicated... when you take in to account that 3-5 minutes of a 20 minute session include the in lap and out lap of that extra session... your complaint over 5 minutes of " lost" track time ( that you promised yourself ! ) seems really small.

This would have been easily solved by not showing checker until T11, but it went out at Start/Finish. Do you really expect me to drive hard from Start/Finish to T11 if I know it is over? The track was supposed to go green at T11 and checker at T11. Showing me checker at Start/Finish slows me down after T20.


Agree.. braking at the 150 ft brake marker works for me at 150 mph indicated on the speedo.... using STREET pads (PFC- Z). My set of PFC-08s didnt make it out of the box since I was focusing on making YOUR day go as well as possible.

Then you should have brought the car by garage 24 during my 5 hour break. I would have swapped them and still taken a nap. I work on my friends' cars when they need help. Your brakes would have taken 20 minutes.

thanks for now letting us know you were crossposting from another forum into this thread. No one else would of course know what one you are talking about without being in both threads. I am not a member of the other list you mentioned... I'll let you and Bruce duke it out about his comments there.

Thanks for the etymology of your profile ID.. but .... I'm just gonna call you surly though for short..... because I am just waiting for you to say... " I want my two dollars "... oops.. perhaps it should be... I want my 10 minutes....

As far as your comments about DE subsidizing the Race.. 100% not true. This event was not conceived that way and nor has it changed to be that.

A quick review of registration shows 250+ HPDE drivers across three days in 450 available DE slots and 90-100 instructors for this event along with approximately 40 autocrossers.

Racers are tallied separately as registration is via BMW CCA club racing.

How many racers do you think attended? Checking mylaps.com.. the feature race shows 32 drivers. Let's assume that there were 50 racers... So... 250 HPDE drivers + 100 instructors + 40 autocrossers + 50 racers + 10 additional event staff = 450 total participants. Fifty racers is not even 1/6 of the event attendees and the actual # of 32-35 cars is actually approaching 10% ... Had the race group maxed out at 60-65 drivers.. they are still a fraction of the overall attendess. Any further questions?


As mentioned previously in this thread, BMW CCA is the only group running an event which includes INSTRUCTION at COTA. Perhaps from there you can take your conclusions about HPDE and race events that are combined and you can slander other clubs.


you might want to check your math again as I don't believe that 90 minutes is 75 percent of 100 minutes... you received 75% of the number of sessions of a typical BMW CCA DE...but not 75 percent of the track time.. that would be a 90 percent as scheduled.. alas... (we know!) you still want your 10 minutes....

As an FYI.. the Trifecta name came about because this event has multiple chapters (3) and multiple events (3 or more) (DE/CR, autocross and car show in year one... this year we did not attempt a car show)...

FYI #2 HPDE Driver's got 3 sessions at the trifecta in 2013 as well.


FUTURE Trifecta .....

I anticipate a large car show will be added to the event in 2015, *further* demonstrating to you that this event is a combination of multiple events that BMW CCA chapters provide to their members.

If feasible, we also would like to incorporate a Street Survival and an Adult Car Control Clinic in the future. It would also be nice to have a driving tour out in the Texas hill Country at some point during the weekend. To do all this.. Many more volunteers are needed..... with your willingness to help ..... I'd be happy to see you what you contribute to make the event better !

if I had a break in the day for 5 hours.. (and I have at NASA events at Mid Ohio....) I would go back to my hotel and take a nap... or take a dump ..... . or get a real meal that isnt track food. Some people appreciate the break... others don't. It's a given that we can't make everyone happy.. *shrug*


And now to REALLY blow your mind...

What if we devise a way to get more sessions for students for 2015? With some new changes to BMWCCA HPDE minimums standards... I am already working on a proposal for that......... so... just because an event has a DE and race together... please don't make assumptions....

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by gobuffs

The DE committee is ALL volunteers, but there are perks.

What event in June?

I heard a rumor over the weekend that Driver's Edge has a lapping day/track day scheduled for the weekend of 06/28-29. No " E" in that event.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by jml

- Trains in instructor 1 group/no passing signals from most people from 2-9

I would agree on that although I don't fault BMWCCA for that. I think its a function of COTAmania...where you suddenly just only care about yourself.

Some incidents of drag racing and non-courteous driving...which are 2 things that I would think instructors wouldn't be doing. My car is not fast...I need a lift! I don't care about the speed...just set the example and play safe and nice.

Originally Posted by dbyrd

I heard that Driver's Edge under another name - something Edge is running COTA in June. I hope that I'm not spreading false rumors, but I heard several guys talking about this at COTA. Any info is most appreciated.

So basically there is Edge Adventures...not directly related to Driver's Edge...which is doing a track event. That's all I know.

I believe registration will be based upon your ratings within the Driver's Edge. I don't think it will be an HPDE format.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by surlynkid

M3 Adjuster said..........Surly.. (aptly named) .... sorry... but the track time was as planned.


Surlyn

http://www2.dupont.com/Surlyn/en_US/


I am digging through my ENGLISH books and reviewing the event website trying to find where anyone PROMISED you four 25 minute sessions...

From Bruce's post on Track Junkies dated Jan 31 and copied below. I didn't need any English books to understand that.


Students groups have 3 30 min sessions each day. We did this to maximize on track time as the first lap and cool down laps take soooo much time at COTA. Amount of track time each day is equal to what we would have with 4 sessions.

The event schedule was posted at texastrifecta.com well in advance of the cancellation date... so if you were really that upset about 10 minutes of track time... then you should have cancelled prior to March 1st.

At the end of the day, this is really a BMWCCA race at COTA that is subsidized by a DE that gets 75% of the track time of a normal DE to squeeze in race groups. Separate the two. I will no longer attend TWS PDS events that run in conjunction with a race, as I pay the same and get a lot less.


As gobuffs indicated... when you take in to account that 3-5 minutes of a 20 minute session include the in lap and out lap of that extra session... your complaint over 5 minutes of " lost" track time ( that you promised yourself ! ) seems really small.

This would have been easily solved by not showing checker until T11, but it went out at Start/Finish. Do you really expect me to drive hard from Start/Finish to T11 if I know it is over? The track was supposed to go green at T11 and checker at T11. Showing me checker at Start/Finish slows me down after T20.


Agree.. braking at the 150 ft brake marker works for me at 150 mph indicated on the speedo.... using STREET pads (PFC- Z). My set of PFC-08s didnt make it out of the box since I was focusing on making YOUR day go as well as possible.

Then you should have brought the car by garage 24 during my 5 hour break. I would have swapped them and still taken a nap. I work on my friends' cars when they need help. Your brakes would have taken 20 minutes.

You do have to realize that BMWCCA and Driver's Edge are very different.

Driver's Edge is a for profit business that runs HPDEs as their core revenue generating function. BMWCCA does not. Rick runs a super tight ship and should since his livelihood is on the line. But to take that expectation and apply it to BMWCCA who occasionally does HPDE events strictly as a comraderie event to promote the club is not fair or realistic.

I've been through both Instructor trainings. Rick makes his point clear in the instructor session, its about safety and customer satisfaction. BMWCCA makes it clear...its about safety and comraderie. BMWCCA's instructor manuals clearly state that in chapter 1 of both versions that I have seen.

BUT...it was the yellow session that had a bunch of breakdowns on the first day. Here is where there is and should be a difference in the decision making.

Driver's Edge will not take away from the instructors except in some cases he'll combine red and instructor on Sun. Driver's Edge will even out the times allocated to the rest of the sessions after a delay. So when the Yellow run group does something, everyone suffers equally. I don't think BMWCCA took that approach...which I think is inline with their mission and goals for their HPDE.

Just my $.02.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by jml

I had a great time. The RS didn't blow up this year

While I was a bit "surly" at certain points of the weekend:
- I tried to "do" the garage deal we end up right off the bat on fri, only to be told it was a stupid idea by a certain person
- Trains in instructor 1 group/no passing signals from most people from 2-9
- the 45min instructor session at 5:15 on Sunday, ended up being only 15min - on track at 5:40 and off at 5:55...and I was tired, but trying to show off to a friend I mountain bike with.

Personally.. I wouldn't offer a lot of points from 2-9 unless I know the other driver or the other driver is " James Clay ". I have attended road atlanta and given an outside point twice in turn 11/12... Once to Seth Thomas... we drove side by side through the turn as he went by.. no issues.. and once to a driver in a blue Porsche 911 that got in my trunk from 10-11. I gave him a pass and completely backed off as I didnt trust the other driver and when I came over the hill I got to see him exit the track and end up in the sand trap driver's left near the HPDE pit in..


With a collection of instructors from many areas and many different organizations.. .... including many who come from organizations where more relaxed passing IS NOT ALLOWED... I am not going to fault anyone for this. I received comments from several PCA instructors that LOVED the ability to pass with a point anywhere. I also spoke with several who still did not agree philosphically with this procedure. I would assume that those individuals would be some that did not offer a point in the corners.

Did you ever try instructor group 2... perhaps it did not work with your student assignments..?
It seems to me from my time at the grid ithat many instructors may have rushed for group 1... regardless of when they were supposed to end. It seemed that the groups were unbalanced for sure... I will work on a better solution for dividing instructors.... and welcome any input (drop me a note offline?)

As far as Sunday PM.... I was at the grid til the very end... and the last session of the day there were approximately 3-5 instructor vehicles. The grid was such a ghost town that I allowed a couple of other SOLO drivers to go out... upping the count to a whopping 6-8 cars on track that last session.....

Originally Posted by jml

I thought given the curve balls from COTA and broken cars, you guys did a wonderful job, and it was one of the best COTA DEs i've been to. Thanks for making it happen and all the hard work/dealing with bitchy folks...i don't think 99% of people know how much work it is, and the fact that most is done by volunteers.

Thanks for your positive comments... you are correct... there were volunteers putting in hours and hours of time over several months to make this event go..

[jml]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Personally.. I wouldn't offer a lot of points from 2-9 unless I know the other driver or the other driver is " James Clay ". I have attended road atlanta and given an outside point twice in turn 11/12... Once to Seth Thomas... we drove side by side through the turn as he went by.. no issues.. and once to a driver in a blue Porsche 911 that got in my trunk from 10-11. I gave him a pass and completely backed off as I didnt trust the other driver and when I came over the hill I got to see him exit the track and end up in the sand trap driver's left near the HPDE pit in..


With a collection of instructors from many areas and many different organizations.. .... including many who come from organizations where more relaxed passing IS NOT ALLOWED... I am not going to fault anyone for this. I received comments from several PCA instructors that LOVED the ability to pass with a point anywhere. I also spoke with several who still did not agree philosphically with this procedure. I would assume that those individuals would be some that did not offer a point in the corners.

That's pretty much what it was IMO. Big spectrum of seat time at COTA and some folks who don't race or were not comfortable getting passed/able to drive defensively. understandable, but annoying to others stuck behind someone for 1mile in the most fun section. It was a treat to be able to pass anywhere...so this was much like taking candy way from a child

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Did you ever try instructor group 2... perhaps it did not work with your student assignments..?
It seems to me from my time at the grid ithat many instructors may have rushed for group 1... regardless of when they were supposed to end. It seemed that the groups were unbalanced for sure... I will work on a better solution for dividing instructors.... and welcome any input (drop me a note offline?)

I had a blue student and a white student, and rode with both much of the time, so I followed instructions and hit the I1 group.

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

As far as Sunday PM.... I was at the grid til the very end... and the last session of the day there were approximately 3-5 instructor vehicles. The grid was such a ghost town that I allowed a couple of other SOLO drivers to go out... upping the count to a whopping 6-8 cars on track that last session.....

I know, it was awesome....but like (what I can imagine only) sex with a super model, it ended way way too soon.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by jml

That's pretty much what it was IMO. Big spectrum of seat time at COTA and some folks who don't race or were not comfortable getting passed/able to drive defensively. understandable, but annoying to others stuck behind someone for 1mile in the most fun section. It was a treat to be able to pass anywhere...so this was much like taking candy way from a child

.

I have been to several BMW CCA Ofest events over the years. Genesee Valley (watkins Glen) and Peach Tree (road Atlanta) dictate what side of the car for passing for certain straights (with the walls and armco..it makes sense). Hoosier chapter (Putnam) only allows passing on the LEFT side of the car (or at least they once did... way back in the 90s... forgive me hoosier brethren... if you've evolved! ). Without a doubt... an event like this has drivers from many different disciplines... including a certain driver whose default was COMMA " race to the corner" mentality. Instructor and A group drivers can police themselves quite well.. so it was easy for me to find the OFF button....

For future events we will allow select Advanced + drivers to have many if not all of the same freedom as the instructor group. We may consider allowing these select drivers to drive in multiple run groups for a slightly higher cost, ($2?) so they can get back their additional Ten Minutes.....

Originally Posted by jml

I know, it was awesome....but like (what I can imagine only) sex with a super model, it ended way way too soon.