m3 vs. 2012 C63 AMG

[Elie335]

lol are you serious ppl for comparing the m3 GTS with the c63 black series? ahahaha.

[luckistryke]

Originally Posted by Pirat335i

Its Black Series not Black Line you idiots. The next Black Series is going to be the C63 coupe Black Series with the 5.5 liter V8 twin turbo. YES, THE 5.5 TT V8! InsideLine has the scoop on the C63 black series and confirmed the 5.5 TT V8.

Black Series with the 5.5 liter V8 twin turbo. Aw man can't wait to see and hear the reviews on this monster.
5.5 liter v8 TT > 4.4 liter v8 TT

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

Great job to AMG. Putting more power into a car that already had a horrible time putting the power down in an overly cumbersome to drive car.

Nice.

Although I personally think the C63 is more fun as a DD than the M3, the reason for this response is to quote (or very closely paraphrase) two names that have some prominence in automotive circles.

The first is David E. Davis (of Car & driver" and "Automobile" fame), who said "Any car on the planet would be a better car is it just had 50 more horsepower."

The second is Mark Donohue, in his book, "The Unfair Advantage".

Documenting efforts with Porsche in the Can Am series, they were having some trouble sorting the car out at a particular track, and one of the Porsche engineers said, "At least we have enough power".

Whereupon Donohue said, "Until I can't use full throttle before I hit the last 50 feet of the longest straight we run on this season, we don't have enough power.".

Great book, by the way.

Bruce

PS - Just the antics Penske and Donohue employed regarding refueling in the Trans Am series is worth the purchase price. Rules said gravity feed only, so they built a 20 foot tower for the gas. The tank filled so fast that the refueling guy was terrified of being immolated due to amazing amounts of spillage.

For a time, they stored the fuel packed in dry ice, so they could cram a larger amount of fuel in the mandated 22 gallon tank. Plus the cooling effect in the intake gave them extra power to at least partially overcome the extra weight of a full tank.

As I said, great read.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by Poppin Fresh

BMW has said of interest in creating different iterations of the M3 after the GTS's huge success. Similar to the 911's different versions. I'm excited to see what's in store.

Ahhhhhhh, how was the GTS a huge success?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Pirat335i

Its Black Series not Black Line you idiots. The next Black Series is going to be the C63 coupe Black Series with the 5.5 liter V8 twin turbo. YES, THE 5.5 TT V8! InsideLine has the scoop on the C63 black series and confirmed the 5.5 TT V8.

This car will be a beast, but unfortunately putting the 5.5L M157 in a limited production, insanely priced Black Series means this motor probably won't find its way into a standard C63 any time soo. And that's disappointing.

Even though they would probably detune it to about 520hp or so for the base C63, obviously cheap aftermarket power will be easy with this motor since it is turbocharged. To avoid the tuners raining on the C63 BS's parade, I think they will keep the M157 out of the base C63, including the new coupe, until after the W204 era - long after the Black Series is gone.

So, At probably close to double the price of the CTS-V, it's hard to get too excited about a C63 BS. I like the styling of the Merc better, but I would be all over the Cadillac if I was in the market for a sedan in this class with huge power. Merc isn't really breaking new groud here - not like they would be if they just put this engine in the standard C63.

[mkoesel]

This site seems to think the C63 will switch to the 4.7L M278:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...s-mb-exec.html

Even though that makes some degree of sense, clearly that's just their speculation. I personally think it will stick with 6.2L M156 until next generation (incl. the coupe), though obviously that is just speculation on my part too.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG

Odd. I own a C63 and don't have this issue. That is of course if I'm playing nice.

Put the Koolaid down.

Turn the traction control off and push it through a turn. Must be a pretty good driver to keep that car in line compared to others in its class.

The traction control itself is almost worthless while working as it's far too obtrusive.

Fast car with big balls, for sure. I respect it.

[Chako]

Contrary to speculation—including by us—Mercedes now tells us that the C63 AMG will keep its normally aspirated 6.2-liter V-8 when it is face-lifted for the 2012 model year. Much of the cosmetic revisions will be based on those received by the regular ‘12 C-class (seen at right), which goes on sale here next summer; we expect the AMG to arrive a few months later.

The decision not to fit AMG’s new, twin-turbo 5.5-liter V-8 is a curious one, and it will mean the C63 AMG will be less efficient than bigger AMG 63 cars that use the new mill, including the S63 AMG, the CL63 AMG, and the CLS63 AMG. We were told that “the new engine wouldn’t fit,” but we think that real reason is that it’s more cost-effective to carry-over the 6.2 in a car with a profit margin nowhere near as high as those of the other AMG models. It’s also very good news for enthusiasts. The 6.2-liter V-8, engineered by former AMG man Bernd Ramler, is one of the finest engines on the market, free-revving and very sensitive to throttle input. We like it better than the new 5.5, and it also sounds glorious.

Source: http://blog.caranddriver.com/2012-me...-6-2-liter-v8/

[mkoesel]

The author completely missed the fact that this engine is rumored for the C63 BS as has been widely rumored and discussed above in this thread.

This both provides a very good explanation for why they would stick with the 6.2L in the regular C63 (keeps C63 owners from gettting the same or more power as a BS with simple ECU mods), as well as debunks the idea that the engine won't fit.

The decision not to fit AMG’s new, twin-turbo 5.5-liter V-8 is a curious one, and it will mean the C63 AMG will be less efficient than bigger AMG 63 cars that use the new mill, including the S63 AMG, the CL63 AMG, and the CLS63 AMG. We were told that “the new engine wouldn’t fit,” but we think that real reason is that it’s more cost-effective to carry-over the 6.2 in a car with a profit margin nowhere near as high as those of the other AMG models. It’s also very good news for enthusiasts. The 6.2-liter V-8, engineered by former AMG man Bernd Ramler, is one of the finest engines on the market, free-revving and very sensitive to throttle input. We like it better than the new 5.5, and it also sounds glorious.

[quiksi]

IIRC they didn't make a SLK63 because the 6.2 engine wouldn't fit in the SLK... with all the extra turbo hardware in the new 5.5, it's reasonable to believe AMG's decision as a packaging issue

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by quiksi

IIRC they didn't make a SLK63 because the 6.2 engine wouldn't fit in the SLK... with all the extra turbo hardware in the new 5.5, it's reasonable to believe AMG's decision as a packaging issue

Mercedes released pics of an SLK63 around the time of the launch of the R171. There was also some official mention of the car in some press release and other literature. So clearly they intended to build one. The issue could have been that the cost to make the needed modifications to fit the engine in the car turned out to be too high, or they just decided that the car would simply be too fast at its price point compared to other AMG models (sort of like how Porsche won't sell a Cayman with more power than a 911). I tend to think the latter.

In any case the fact that Merc has given this type of official company line before doesn't make it automatically legit now.

[mkoesel]

More speculation:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2011...NEWS/110119963

They seem to think that the AMG C class coupe (as well as the SLK) will get the naturally aspirated 5.5L V8. I don't know if I buy this though. Why not just use the turbo 4.7L instead? Also, 422 seems low for the C55 AMG coupe. I would think they would want to make it at least equal to what the C63 sedan does today.

[mkoesel]

Old news now, but just to round out this thread with the final info:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/20/2...ne-deserves-a/

So the new C63 AMG kept the same M156 6.2L from the sedan as most believed it would, rather than moving to the new M157 5.5L turbo. But also:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/21/s...t-working-out/

Notice they are claiming the Black Series will also retain the 6.2L, but will use a higher output version (which goes against what InsideLine originally reported). This could lend some credence to earlier reports that the M157 5.5L "won't fit". If they do go with the 6.2L, I would hope that, contrary to what Autoblog says, they go with the version from the SLS (M159). It makes almost as much power as the 5.5L turbo does.

[M3Fool]

Perfect car???????? The new C63 interior in the M3.... makes me want to drool

[ddigangi]

im sticking with the M3

[dlbrooks18]

You do realize that the next M3 will be a TT V6, which will make more power and torque stock than the current thirsty V8, and with a tune will eclipse 500+whp and produce a boatload of torque. Not to mention it will be lighter..Also, look at the performance of the GTR. BMW is moving forward.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by dlbrooks18

You do realize that the next M3 will be a TT I6, which will make more power and torque stock than the current thirsty V8, and with a tune will eclipse 500+whp and produce a boatload of torque. Not to mention it may be (most likely not) lighter..Also, look at the performance of the GTR. BMW is moving away from driver's cars..

fixed.

[No32]

to me C63 is really fun car to drive but its also very very tiring

[F82_SID]

More reading material for you guys on the 2012 C63 AMG Black Series

http://www.roadandtrack.com/future-c...g-black-series

[mkoesel]

Yeah, similar to the Autoblog article. I still say that it will be a huge missed opportunity if they only give it a 510hp M156.

[mkoesel]

New pics of the C63 BS Coupe:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/07/s...es-so-hot-wed/

Still no firm engine information.

[Nautik]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

New pics of the C63 BS Coupe:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/07/s...es-so-hot-wed/

Still no firm engine information.

I think the coupe could end up looking pretty awesome, especially with a drop and some wheel upgrades. We'll see how the chassis and suspension performs but if I recall the 2011 version of the c63 with the new packages was a lot better than those originally reviewed right?