Thinking about getting an E92 M3 ... input please

[llis]

Originally Posted by mikymu

UNDER STEER

This is another area car and driver have complaint about with the E92 M3. It does not like to turn and just plow aka drift through turns. Is this something that can be easily fixed with larger rear sway bar?

I track with may E92 M3 and they all suffer from severe under steer ... GT3 really kill them through turns. Here is a video of a very wet track at Thunderhill and the E92 M3's under steer did not help through fast turns ... it really has to slow down and tip toe through T11-T15

Having tracked with a few GT3s, I feel it's the driver, not the car. Expert GT3 drivers have left me in the dust, but novice GT3 drivers slow me down and I have to pass them, and intermediate GT3 drivers I play cat and mouse with. On the straight, the GT3 has a bit more get up and go, at least at altitude, but I get the sense the E92 M3 actually makes up for it in balance and handling through the turns, especially rapid esses.

Of course, you will have first-hand experience if you get the M3. I think if you make sure you give yourself time to get accustomed to the car, have the right tires, brake pads, etc., you'll enjoy the car very much!

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by e1000

it's ok because, M3 driver's have no friends.

O that fit perfectly. Nicely done, sir.

[ManAndMachine]

Sorry bud,you have ruined all potential track fun in every other car by getting the cup car in the first place

Seriously tho,you will be borderline bored driving a street going M3 even with a few weight saving measures and power bump.Afetr coming from an RS and a Cup car that is.

If you do get the M3..it will just be bandaid at the track for shot gun blast,till you park the Cup car for a year and not lift the car cover off it!

M3 is however one hell of a street car for 60K.Good luck

[mikymu]

Originally Posted by llis

Having tracked with a few GT3s, I feel it's the driver, not the car. Expert GT3 drivers have left me in the dust, but novice GT3 drivers slow me down and I have to pass them, and intermediate GT3 drivers I play cat and mouse with. On the straight, the GT3 has a bit more get up and go, at least at altitude, but I get the sense the E92 M3 actually makes up for it in balance and handling through the turns, especially rapid esses.

Of course, you will have first-hand experience if you get the M3. I think if you make sure you give yourself time to get accustomed to the car, have the right tires, brake pads, etc., you'll enjoy the car very much!

When I had my E46 M3 it makes my day to pass a 911 ... be it a vert or one from the 1970's. Now I am on the dark side hunting down race prepped mustang, other Cup cars and make street GT3 look like they are standing still. You are right, it will be a fun dd and perhaps an instruction mobile when my Cup is on the lift

Originally Posted by KTM505SX

Sorry bud,you have ruined all potential track fun in every other car by getting the cup car in the first place

Seriously tho,you will be borderline bored driving a street going M3 even with a few weight saving measures and power bump.Afetr coming from an RS and a Cup car that is.

If you do get the M3..it will just be bandaid at the track for shot gun blast,till you park the Cup car for a year and not lift the car cover off it!

M3 is however one hell of a street car for 60K.Good luck

Well, I never drove my RS on the street other than going to and from track. It is noisy, stiff and uncomfortable. I have to drive it with ear plugs. M3 is going to be 1000X better than my Tundra. I am curious to see how fast ... or slow I am on the track in a M3. It will be nice to surprise some of my GT3 track buddies and see them give me the point by

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by mikymu

Hey Guys

My first post here

I have not been back in the M3 world for a while. After transition from E46 M3 to GT3 RS and now flying in a GT3 Cup car, my sore bone is ready for a "comfortable" sports car for everyday and occasional track use. There are not many "real" sports car left in the market now days. They are either too fat, too ugly or just plain old blend as tap water. I am considering a E92 M3 because it can hold 4 people and having two small kids helps. I can also use it occasionally for track duty when my GT3 Cup is in service. Here are some questions for those of you with first hand experience in the E92 chassis

WEIGHT:

E92 M3 weigh in at a whopping 3704 lbs! Everyone is going fat like it's in fashion and even Lotus is not spared. What makes the M3 so heavy and what are some of the ways to shave couple hundred lbs without throwing away seats, AC etc? I am going to add a full titanium Akrapovic exhaust which will only shave 40 lbs or so .... 500 lbs to go.

STYLE

I was disappointed with E92 design when it first release. I still think E46 look much better in many ways. I seen several spy photo of the upcoming 3 series that will replace E90 ... man! what a fugly piece of crap. BMW is going Camry and there is no turning back for a large faceless corporation. It's all about meeting the investor's expectation and passion and art are forgotten. This is true with all car makers. Just look at the new Ferrari and the upcoming Porsche 991 ...OMG. I think E92 will be a very good looking car for the next couple 3 series generations

TRANSMISSION

6 spd or DCT? I drove a Porsche Spyder with PDK or their version of the DCT and it was amazing! blip on down shift and change gears faster than you can blink. So far BMW's DCT could not match Ferrari or Porsche's design with many defect and flaws most notably in shift delay. car and Driver or better know as BMW's bed fellow in the past had nothing but praise for M3 had great reservation for DCT because it will not respond to driver's command especially on the track. The car will not down shift on the track with aggressive driving which breaks driver's concentration and rub precious seconds. I have experience significant delay with DCT in the past on the street where I would count 2-3 seconds before the car change gears. Does it over heat easily? No sense to get DCT if it over heat after two laps in 95F ambient temp. What are your thought and input? I am especially curious about DCT track use. Some says S4 setting solve most issues ....

UNDER STEER

This is another area car and driver have complaint about with the E92 M3. It does not like to turn and just plow aka drift through turns. Is this something that can be easily fixed with larger rear sway bar?

I track with may E92 M3 and they all suffer from severe under steer ... GT3 really kill them through turns. Here is a video of a very wet track at Thunderhill and the E92 M3's under steer did not help through fast turns ... it really has to slow down and tip toe through T11-T15

PRICE and OPTIONS

I will be ordering a new one from factory. Looks like we can get it at invoice or better now days with attractive interest rates. What are your experience in price and order?

As far as options goes, here is what I need. DCT if it can handle track duty, Nav, rear parking sensor and heated seats for wife and that's about it.

SUSPENSION

Is the competition package with lower ride height worth the $$ or does the M3 need after market set up to liven things up? I love my TC Kline suspension on the E46 M3 and are there similar package on the market?

POWER

Full Akrapovic titanium exhaust will add 20 hp and combine with pulley and software, intake mods you may be able to extract 15-20 more which add up to about 455 hp at the crank in best possible scenario. Are there any more hp to extract without going force induction?

OK, that's enough questions for now ... back to learning how to drive the damn GT3 Cup car lol

You are comparing what is arguably Porsche's finest track car to a luxury/performance car built for the street that happens to have some track capability. I haven't ever driven a GT3, but I have driven a 911TT, 9114S, 911S and CaymanS. The M3 is a more civilized street car to all of those. I found the steering responsiveness of the M3 superior to both AWD Porsche's. The steering/chassis responsiveness of the 911 S and Cayman S are definitely superior to the M3, but the M3 is much more composed than the 911 S. Cayman S is simply the finest handling car I have ever driven, but, it doesn't have the feel of the M3's V8, nor the comfort and space.

In the end it depends what you are looking for. One thing for sure is that Porsche is a horrible value when purchased new. I spec'd a 911S to almost $120K when comparably equipped to my $73k M3 competition. No way in hell the 911 is $47k better. You also can not just look at the M3 purely in terms of it's sporting attributes. It adds a significant degree of comfort and practicality too.

Honestly, why don't you look at a Cayman R. Sounds like more of what you are looking for. Or how about an Aston Martin Vantage is you wish to or are able to spend that kind of money.

[mikymu]

Originally Posted by VVG

You are comparing what is arguably Porsche's finest track car to a luxury/performance car built for the street that happens to have some track capability. I haven't ever driven a GT3, but I have driven a 911TT, 9114S, 911S and CaymanS. The M3 is a more civilized street car to all of those. I found the steering responsiveness of the M3 superior to both AWD Porsche's. The steering/chassis responsiveness of the 911 S and Cayman S are definitely superior to the M3, but the M3 is much more composed than the 911 S. Cayman S is simply the finest handling car I have ever driven, but, it doesn't have the feel of the M3's V8, nor the comfort and space.

In the end it depends what you are looking for. One thing for sure is that Porsche is a horrible value when purchased new. I spec'd a 911S to almost $120K when comparably equipped to my $73k M3 competition. No way in hell the 911 is $47k better. You also can not just look at the M3 purely in terms of it's sporting attributes. It adds a significant degree of comfort and practicality too.

Honestly, why don't you look at a Cayman R. Sounds like more of what you are looking for. Or how about an Aston Martin Vantage is you wish to or are able to spend that kind of money.

Cayman and Spyder are similar in price with M3 and outpace M3 on a 3 miles track by 2-3 seconds. Parts for Porsche cost almost twice as much as BMW and quality is not twice as good. I need a car that can sit 4 so Boxster platform is out. No Austin or AMG for me ... they are for old people

[stefan]

I feel like the E92s tendency to understeer should be able to be addressed by simply adding a stiffer rear sway. Wouldn't want to modify the suspension if your only gripe is the understeer (as a first trial). Not certain, though.

Can anyone comment on this?

[Mahzari]

As far as weight and power goes, it depends how much you want to modify the M3 and how liveable you want it to be on the street. A full catless exhaust, pulley, drop in filter and tune can net you some impressive whp gains (Click here). You can also lose quiet a bit of weight if you have the money and can live with the compromises. A light weight battery can save you 30-40lbs, two bucket seats can save 90-100lbs, an exhaust is about 40-50lbs, etc. You don't have to fully gut the interior to lose some meaningful weight.

Personally, I'd leave the M3 closer to stock (would probably get a catted exhaust and tune) so it can be enjoyed on the street without compromise since you have a GT3 Cup that is an untouchable track car

[Robertyu]

Originally Posted by mikymu

I have experience significant delay with DCT in the past on the street where I would count 2-3 seconds before the car change gears.

I just don't get this part. The whole lure of the DCT in an M3 for me was how instantly it shifts when I tell it to. I cannot even think of how I could get it to delay shifting like described here.

If you are borrowing a DCT M3 to get a feel for it, and it starts shifting like you describe, please pull back off of the road or track, and tell the owner it needs to go in for repair right away. If the shifts are not perceived as instant or near-instant when pulling the paddle, something is broke.

[ManAndMachine]

Originally Posted by mikymu

When I had my E46 M3 it makes my day to pass a 911 ... be it a vert or one from the 1970's. Now I am on the dark side hunting down race prepped mustang, other Cup cars and make street GT3 look like they are standing still. You are right, it will be a fun dd and perhaps an instruction mobile when my Cup is on the lift



Well, I never drove my RS on the street other than going to and from track. It is noisy, stiff and uncomfortable. I have to drive it with ear plugs. M3 is going to be 1000X better than my Tundra. I am curious to see how fast ... or slow I am on the track in a M3. It will be nice to surprise some of my GT3 track buddies and see them give me the point by

You must have removed all sound insulation and carpets out of the RS and had aftermarket suspension, I'm guessing..I put 16K miles on my stock 997.1 GT3 with no issues.To put things in prospective..stock for stock the 415hp GT3 was 9 seconds per lap quicker than the e92 at Willow Springs.Although the M3 was there right after the track surface was just repaved and didn't have much grip.Also the Mich Cups have few seconds over the Stock Conti's on the M.Unless your buddies in the GT3's are driving below 8/10 and have less skill,point by's wont happen LoL..

[kiwistu]

Hi

Great situation to be in!

I regularly track my E92 manual, its great. Understeer is not an issue for me, and after lots of instruction, you only get it if you mash too early, quite the reverse if you easy on the throttle...at my last track day I was messing around with the instructor in the car (one of NZ's best 911 drivers) and did smallish 2nd gear drift after all the serious stuff :-) - and he commented - this is the right car for you if tried that in a 911 you'd be in the wall..and went on to say how well balanced the m3 was. (ie understeer is not a factor, I reckon)

Over to the 911, I have been lucky enought to drive a very well prepared 996 GT3 at several local circuits, and frankly you are comparing apples with oranges!

The gt3 is faster, stops way way better, and is basically totally excellent in all respects, the ulitmate go cart, love it (especially the scary on the limit handling - ie the whole rear engine thing) and I am definately going to get one. For the track.

How ever right now I have two little kids can only have one car so M3 it is, and I prefer the balance. BTW my friend with the gt3 has a 4 door DTC m3 for his daily driver...go figure...I guess your looking at the same spreadsheet.

So mod the race car, buy an E92 M3 leave it stock, enjoy it for what it is a kick arse daily driver, and who knows if it rains where you are but you will have a blast running rings around your 911 buddies on a rainy track day!

Cheers
stu

[mikymu]

First of all, just want to say I am really impressed by the professional feedback I have gotten so far on this forum. Not much of the "punk" mentality or personal attack seen on many other M3 sites!

Cheers

Mike

Originally Posted by stefan

I feel like the E92s tendency to understeer should be able to be addressed by simply adding a stiffer rear sway. Wouldn't want to modify the suspension if your only gripe is the understeer (as a first trial). Not certain, though.

Can anyone comment on this?

Yes, larger rear sway will fix the problem

Originally Posted by Mahzari

As far as weight and power goes, it depends how much you want to modify the M3 and how liveable you want it to be on the street. A full catless exhaust, pulley, drop in filter and tune can net you some impressive whp gains (Click here). You can also lose quiet a bit of weight if you have the money and can live with the compromises. A light weight battery can save you 30-40lbs, two bucket seats can save 90-100lbs, an exhaust is about 40-50lbs, etc. You don't have to fully gut the interior to lose some meaningful weight.

Personally, I'd leave the M3 closer to stock (would probably get a catted exhaust and tune) so it can be enjoyed on the street without compromise since you have a GT3 Cup that is an untouchable track car

WOW, that's great that we can add 40+ hp to the M3 with few mods.

My goal is to shave at least 200 lbs off the M3 when use on the track. I can take off all the seats and just install a race bucket that alone should shave 120+ lbs. It's not a big deal to take seats in and out for track. Lighter battery, exhaust and removal of unnecessary insulation all can help lighten up the car

Originally Posted by Robertyu

I just don't get this part. The whole lure of the DCT in an M3 for me was how instantly it shifts when I tell it to. I cannot even think of how I could get it to delay shifting like described here.

If you are borrowing a DCT M3 to get a feel for it, and it starts shifting like you describe, please pull back off of the road or track, and tell the owner it needs to go in for repair right away. If the shifts are not perceived as instant or near-instant when pulling the paddle, something is broke.

I drove couple brand new DCT M3 from 2008-2009 and they all had 1-3 seconds delay under hard acceleration or braking (you should see the face of the sales person). Some told me DCT will improve once you drive more ...

Originally Posted by KTM505SX

You must have removed all sound insulation and carpets out of the RS and had aftermarket suspension, I'm guessing..I put 16K miles on my stock 997.1 GT3 with no issues.To put things in prospective..stock for stock the 415hp GT3 was 9 seconds per lap quicker than the e92 at Willow Springs.Although the M3 was there right after the track surface was just repaved and didn't have much grip.Also the Mich Cups have few seconds over the Stock Conti's on the M.Unless your buddies in the GT3's are driving below 8/10 and have less skill,point by's wont happen LoL..

I am just a better driver, I can pass my GT3 buddies in a Fiat lol.

Yes, my RS was stripped with GT2 seats. It was not a comfortable ride even at stock form. I have to drive 2-3 hours each way to the track and my ears are rinning at end of day

Originally Posted by kiwistu

Hi

Great situation to be in!

I regularly track my E92 manual, its great. Understeer is not an issue for me, and after lots of instruction, you only get it if you mash too early, quite the reverse if you easy on the throttle...at my last track day I was messing around with the instructor in the car (one of NZ's best 911 drivers) and did smallish 2nd gear drift after all the serious stuff :-) - and he commented - this is the right car for you if tried that in a 911 you'd be in the wall..and went on to say how well balanced the m3 was. (ie understeer is not a factor, I reckon)

Over to the 911, I have been lucky enought to drive a very well prepared 996 GT3 at several local circuits, and frankly you are comparing apples with oranges!

The gt3 is faster, stops way way better, and is basically totally excellent in all respects, the ulitmate go cart, love it (especially the scary on the limit handling - ie the whole rear engine thing) and I am definately going to get one. For the track.

How ever right now I have two little kids can only have one car so M3 it is, and I prefer the balance. BTW my friend with the gt3 has a 4 door DTC m3 for his daily driver...go figure...I guess your looking at the same spreadsheet.

So mod the race car, buy an E92 M3 leave it stock, enjoy it for what it is a kick arse daily driver, and who knows if it rains where you are but you will have a blast running rings around your 911 buddies on a rainy track day!

Cheers
stu

Hi Stu

M3 can sit 4 comfortably and that trumps everything else such as 911, Cayman, Spyder etc. Not much can compare with GT3 on the track but even the street GT3 has much to be desired that's why I got a Cup car. I have a disease, I can't leave well enough alone .... I need to mod

[alms211]

Originally Posted by askharjoon

I had a 997S 6 speed with a bunch of mods including H&R's which made it handle like it was on rails. But, you're comparing apples to oranges. The Porsche is a dedicated track car modified to drive on the road. The M3 is the opposite. That said, the DCT is FAR better than the PDK in my opinion. Shifts are crisper and I've never experienced the delay you are talking about. I do miss the Porsche but I felt like as a daily driver it lacked something. Throw a nice exhaust on the M3 and enjoy the V8 growl you'll never get from the P. car.

Drove a DCT today and was thoroughly impressed. The shift changes were instantaneous and precise. Downshift blips sound fantastic as well. I test drove a M 6speed before I bought my Grand Sport Vette and was not overly impressed. I wish I would have driven the DCT back then. The DCT just seems to have far better throttle response thus making it feel more powerful down low to me. In any event, an E92 M3 outfitted with DCT is in my near future (perhaps alot sooner than initially thought). The DCT