ESS VT3 - LC built engine failure in 2,000 miles

[stevens]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I think gauges are a personal choice. What if the OP doesn't want the EAS gauge? I wouldn't want the EAS gauge. Nothing against that gauge because it looks like one bad ass set up. But my needs are different and I require different gauges for my set up.

I need gauges with data logging capabilities like the PLX gauges that I can download and graph later. I want them all hooked together into a unified soft gauge (just like the AWRON from EAS). But I also want a 0-5V output that can be fed into an analog A&D converter, then converted to CAN bus messages, and data logged with a Video VBox or VBox Pro. I think my needs are more demanding than what's being discussed in this thread.

So $30k build or not, I don't want a vendor to tell me which gauges to use because my needs are different and more demanding. And with those increased demands come increased complexity -- another reason to go this by yourself.

I agree it’s up to the op to choose a gauge that they want, but being on his 3rd VT setup, id of thought this would have been in place by now, specifically if I was upping boost against their recommendations, and the fact they have recommended a specific gauge would reinforce this.

Whilst I might disagree with a vendors specific recommendation, I’d rather they recommended one and I bought a better one or at least similar than them not recommending one at all.
You strike me as someone who likes to do things right, so I’m sure you agree

[klammer]

Really??? Gauges...all this and we're talking about gauges

[GreeKon]

Originally Posted by Dashman

Sure it is. If you take the vaseline out of your eyes and the cotton balls out of your ears. There are no valid points from the OP's side. He has not provided one shred of proof to counter what ESS has said. Just a lot of belly aching and posturing, with no substance.

Your argument just collapsed on itself. What evidence has ESS brought to the table? Both sides are all hearsay. And now we all heard your side too.

[maaicher]

I haven't had an M3 for over two years, but reading this sort of stuff is the reason I am still on here

[SYZ]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I think gauges are a personal choice. What if the OP doesn't want the EAS gauge? I wouldn't want the EAS gauge. Nothing against that gauge because it looks like one bad ass set up. But my needs are different and I require different gauges for my set up.

I need gauges with data logging capabilities like the PLX gauges that I can download and graph later. I want them all hooked together into a unified soft gauge (just like the AWRON from EAS). But I also want a 0-5V output that can be fed into an analog A&D converter, then converted to CAN bus messages, and data logged with a Video VBox or VBox Pro. I think my needs are more demanding than what's being discussed in this thread.

So $30k build or not, I don't want a vendor to tell me which gauges to use because my needs are different and more demanding. And with those increased demands come increased complexity -- another reason to go this by yourself.

Originally Posted by stevens

I agree it’s up to the op to choose a gauge that they want, but being on his 3rd VT setup, id of thought this would have been in place by now, specifically if I was upping boost against their recommendations, and the fact they have recommended a specific gauge would reinforce this.

Whilst I might disagree with a vendors specific recommendation, I’d rather they recommended one and I bought a better one or at least similar than them not recommending one at all.
You strike me as someone who likes to do things right, so I’m sure you agree

Sure gauges for some is a personal preference based upon their needs.

OP sounds like he just wants to go fast in a straight line and a turn-key solution delivered. I don't think he's very sophisticated when it comes to cars and the build details.

[stevens]

Originally Posted by klammer

Really??? Gauges...all this and we're talking about gauges

Yes Gauges, those things we use to tell us whats going on in the car, Speed, Revs etc.

im suprised you dont think this is relevant to this discussion, granted there are other things as well but this is still relevant.

Likewise aside from "Gauges", if I had had 2 VT cars that blew for whatever reason (high boost according to AJ), and went back for another "built" engine and "again" had increased the boost (which is the point of a built engine, or at least to get safely passed the 8psi range) then id be learning from my previous mistakes and not making them again.

Well unless I had the ops money it would seem, which I dont, thus id prefer to do everything I could to make the car as enjoyable as it could be and as safe as it could be.

Now im not completly siding with ESS on this one, its clear they have some responsiblilty on this purely by being involved with building the VT3 setup and potentially not doing everything in their power to pass enough, and the correct info on, but from my opening post the OP didnt tell the truth so he also has some as well.

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

Sergei,

1. Standard VT2-650 is 99mm SC pulley and ~8PSI boost. Running a 96mm gives you 9-10PSI boost and a 94mm is ~11PSI boost. The 92mm is closer to 12PSI. You have always been informed that raising the boost from ESS spec is dangerous and that a new engine purchase is a very likely outcome. You did not care since what was important to you was to win your races. The ESS 650 kit is a completely maxed out stock S65 setup in our standard configuration, and any boost increase in this kit means a massive increase in risk. We have always been VERY clear on this to you, and to other customers with the same questions. It does not really matter if you ran the 92 or 94mm SC pulley with the 650 crank, both will quickly kill the engine just as I told you it would.

2. I always told you that the car should be left with us until we informed you it was tested and ready. I was very clear on the fact that you should never rush a custom build. Well, you called every single day for weeks and you scheduled flight after flight even if we specifically told you not to and that we would inform you when the car was done and tested. Eventually when all assembly was completed you showed up the next day to take possesion. Since it is your car, there was nothing we could do about it except to inform you that it is a very unwise thing to do as we had not had time to do proper road testing of your installation. I also informed you VERY clearly that we do not warranty or support the VT3 setup and that a small problem with fuel delivery can cause massive engine failure almost instantly so you have to monitor this at all times when driving under high load. All risks associated with this setup is on you and if you break your engine, you will have to buy a new one. Again you chose to disregard my advice as you always seem to do.

3. We used dual wideband sensors during all our testing and the car operated normally. We also told you to install a system permanently in the car before starting to drive it hard. I specifically recommended the EAS system for a clean install. We do not stock this setup in Norway, and we are not in the business of selling gauges to avoid the possible support on these. We leave it up to the customer to chose and install what he prefers. We just inform you that it is a requirement to properly monitor the engine under high load, and to not take the engine to high load before this is installed.

There was no mistake in the ESS team at all, the car was operating perfectly when you picked it up and you even called us the next day to inform us of the excellent power and driveability. You did not allow us any time at all for extended road testing/shakedown and you did not follow my strong advice to monitor AFR at all times under high load. You did not even install the AFR gauge before beating on the car! The VT3 runs a complex multi pump fuel system with an advanced fuel pressure control system. There are multiple things in this system that can fail, and if it does your engine will die if you do not pay attention to your AFR's.

Again, since you do not seem to get a grasp of what no warranty means: ESS does not provide any warranty coverage on custom high boost race builds in any shape or form. If you break it, you buy a new one! It is that simple. And going 180+MPH with no AFR gauge and with apparent engine hesitations under high load is a very good way to break the engine. You even told me when you got back to Russia that to get to maximum speed you had to back off the throttle as the engine would not pull cleanly at WOT. Your car clearly had substantial fuel delivery issues at that point from either a failed pump or regulator and yet you still kept running the engine at high load until it finally gave out.

We would have gladly supplied you with a sleeved block and new pistons at our cost if you simply would have given us a chance to respond to your email from yesterday before publically bashing us with incorrect information and a complete lack of common sense:

-You chose to massively overboost both stock engines resulting in damage, just as I told you it would.

-You chose to drive the VT3 engine at full power repeatedly without installing an AFR gauge and monitoring engine operation as instructed. Even after fuel supply problems became apparent by lack of correct power production at WOT, you still kept beating on the engine to 180MPH. I told you the engine would be damaged if you did this, yet you still did repeatedly ending in massive engine failure.

How exactly is this our fault?

The 650 kit you guys sold me came with a 95mm pulley and runs 8psi I've checked this!

[stevens]

what size crank pully?

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by stevens

what size crank pully?

That I do not know. I could check

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by leigh

The 650 kit you guys sold me came with a 95mm pulley and runs 8psi I've checked this!

Some early 650 kits ran 97mm top side and some had different crank sizes. There were also some early 650's that ran the stock crank and smaller SC pulley. The current kit with it's current provided crank pulley runs a 99mm SC pulley. Dispite the configuration as long as you are making 8 psi that is all that matters.

[biglare]

This has gotten ugly with a few usual suspects!

IMO, ESS has done more than enough to help out a customer that would not listen to the advice of ESS and is completely standing behind their product even though the customer did NOT follow their advice.

Also, this is more than most other S/C would most likely offer or provide!

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Some early 650 kits ran 97mm top side and some had different crank sizes. There were also some early 650's that ran the stock crank and smaller SC pulley. The current kit with it's current provided crank pulley runs a 99mm SC pulley. Dispite the configuration as long as you are making 8 psi that is all that matters.

What's the benefit of the new setup?

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by leigh

What's the benefit of the new setup?

We have adjusted the crank size to allow for a larger SC pulley. Long term provides a little better belt traction.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

We have adjusted the crank size to allow for a larger SC pulley. Long term provides a little better belt traction.

...which allows a smaller supercharger pulley and more boost for the customer to run...

OK, just kidding.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by regular guy

...which allows a smaller supercharger pulley and more boost for the customer to run...

OK, just kidding.

Like me ? Lmao

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by regular guy

...which allows a smaller supercharger pulley and more boost for the customer to run...

OK, just kidding.

If you have a spare motor available correct

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by BLUDVL

Like me ? Lmao

Especially...like you.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

If you have a spare motor available correct

[IMG]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Especially...like you.

[GIdriver]

Originally Posted by biglare

This has gotten ugly with a few usual suspects!

IMO, ESS has done more than enough to help out a customer that would not listen to the advice of ESS and is completely standing behind their product even though the customer did NOT follow their advice.

Also, this is more than most other S/C would most likely offer or provide!

It doesn't get old, that meme.

[mcasseba]

How much have you spent already all in? I would throw up.

[Krockit1]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

We have adjusted the crank size to allow for a larger SC pulley. Long term provides a little better belt traction.

I have adjusted my crank size with great traction resultant!!!!! Hell it's all about friction anyways, right?