|
|
09-12-2013, 05:55 PM | #45 |
Lieutenant Colonel
233
Rep 1,673
Posts |
I would not mix these two as it is 2 different base stocks. If you want to runt he 0-40 mix it with a thicker oil from the same manufacturer.
__________________
Electronics Junkie, Engine Builder.
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-12-2013, 06:36 PM | #46 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
40
Rep 1,629
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-12-2013, 06:59 PM | #47 |
Lieutenant Colonel
40
Rep 1,629
Posts |
It was 300 without connecting pipes. I just wanted it all done. Sounds like your just after a look and not function. Just paint it and be done. Good thing about ceramic coat from jet-hot is it looks brand new after years of hard use while cheap imitation or paint will flake off. Its not or everyone. If you can find a used Dinan for 1k thats a steal bc thats how much i paid for my Megan w/ coating. Take care.
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-12-2013, 10:47 PM | #48 | |
Private
3
Rep 90
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 12:04 AM | #49 | ||
Grease Monkey
293
Rep 2,646
Posts
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
|
Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 07:36 AM | #50 | |
Captain
205
Rep 729
Posts |
Quote:
But with that in mind, what is the cost of having made bearings with greater clearance? If 5 people resize the cranks and spend $5k, that's $25K. Would it not be worthwhile finding out whether there are enough on this forum interested in getting custom made bearings made (a la "group buy")? It could potentially collectively save a lot of money and aggravation considering that many of us can replace the bearings in our garage but can't resize the crank. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 08:26 AM | #51 | |
Colonel
273
Rep 2,664
Posts
Drives: Goggomobil
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kangaroo land
|
Quote:
__________________
F86 X6///
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 09:51 AM | #52 | ||
Grease Monkey
293
Rep 2,646
Posts
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
|
Quote:
As for having bearings made, it will cost bigger dollars than anyone here is willing to put out. Basically the bearings would cost almost the price of having the machine work done per set! |
||
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 10:22 AM | #53 | |
First Lieutenant
7
Rep 311
Posts |
Quote:
So please don't flame me, but here's a few points. Would I trust a machine shop to lick .001" off all 8 journals and maintain the almost perfect oem surface finish? No I wouldn't. Yes it can be done, but it's fair to say 5 out of 10 shops would screw up an expensive crank. Opening up the clearances will lose oil pressure and make the pump work harder. This in turn could starve other components. Surface contact in the bearing would also be reduced. Not good on cold starts. Being that most of the failures are on charged motors, does the crank pulley damage the bearing with it's unusual loading? |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 11:17 AM | #54 | |
Grease Monkey
293
Rep 2,646
Posts
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
|
Quote:
There are many machine shops that can machine the crank to OEM finish or better...... I know of quite a few. Obviously you don't send the crank out to "Joe's Garage" and have it done but you do your homework and pick a shop that can do the work and guarantee it to a high standard. 0.001" for a good machine shop is not difficult....... Many shops have the ability to to machine journals to 0.00025" of accuracy because that is their business! If a machine shop can't accurately machine 0.001" off of a journal it would be hard to call them a machine shop in my eyes. Don't place too much weight on that perfect OEM finish, remember BMW has cursed owners of their last 3 M engines with bearing issues. That perfect OEM finish is useless since the clearances that the engine is built with puts that surface at risk due to the metal on metal contact that is causing the bearing wear. It is ok as long as the top layer is still intact, but once you get int the second and third layer and finally into the shell itself the journal can easily be damaged and the crank needs to be machined anyway, if you can even save it! Oil pressure will not be an issue since the S65 has a variable displacement pump capable of flowing plenty of oil to handle the clearances we are interested in building the engines with. And no a pump don't work harder as pressure drops, a pump works as hard as the relief setting will allow it to. Regardless of the clearance in the engine the relief valve will set the load on the pump. as long as the S65 has a minimum of 4 bar (~58 psi) above 2000RPM that is all that is required. Please explain how the minute decrease in surface contact is going to be detrimental on cold starts. The opposite should be true since the bearings are now going to get lubricated quicker since the cold oil will be better able to flow to the bearings due to the increased clearance and prevent any metal on metal contact quicker. Lubrication is king when it comes to journal bearings and unfortunately in the S65 with the clearances it is built with and the oil that BMW specs I fear a lot of the damage to the bearings occur due to the cold flow characteristics of the TWS 10W60....... Basically the bearings are experiencing oil starvation/cavitation until the oil reaches operating temperature. This isn't some flavour of the month for us, this topic has been discussed at length and we are not a bunch of amateurs. I am a mechanic by trade and I work on large diesel engines for a living, Regular guy has been working on the S65 since it was released and he has been involved in many builds including stock displacement, strokers and LC SC'ed S65's and he has access to a cutting edge engine shop and machine shop. Kawasaki00 works for a NASCAR team that builds engines and he too has access to a cutting edge shop and tooling. We all agree that the clearances in the S65/S85 are the cause of the bearing failures in these engines and to be quite honest 0.001" is totally out to lunch for rod clearance on a 2" journal...... That is about half of what it should be! Please add any comments and ask any questions you wish, but don't think for a second that there are some google mechanics on here fixing our engines with a keyboard because that is absolutely not the case! My engine is going to be built into a stroker with proper clearances sometime next spring/summer. I will post my build/pictures of my OEM bearings once the project is underway. I will also post oil pressure data once the engine is up and running.
__________________
Last edited by BMRLVR; 09-13-2013 at 11:24 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 11:24 AM | #55 | |
Captain
205
Rep 729
Posts |
Quote:
You're a trained mechanic and know precisely what to look for when oursourcing work. Most of us do not have your background and our mechanical abilities are limited to maintaining our M's and doing whatever is within our skills at home. So it may be easy for you to identify a particular shop to do the work but for most of us, it's not. To all of this add (1) the remote possibility that the bearings were specifically sized as they are for a particular reason and that opening up the clearance causes other unforeseen problems and (2) the value of an M3 with 40-50K miles (assuming that's when the work is done). There's also the question of whether an M3 with resized crank journals takes a hit in value (assuming the seller discloses this). I think most of us have three practical options: 1) Sell the car when it goes out of warranty; 2) Get an extended warranty that at least covers the engine; or 3) Replace the OEM bearings with OEM bearings when the warranty expires. As to the last option, if you've had the car since new, you should be able to gauge how long you can go on the new bearings before replacing them. Last edited by rantarM3; 09-13-2013 at 11:32 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 01:05 PM | #56 |
Bored at work....
890
Rep 5,387
Posts |
__________________
Grey Matter:2008 E92 M3:608/425. SG/PS SOLD!
Dark Matter:2015 F80 M3:495/505. SOLD! Anti Matter :2016 F82 M4 GTS What next?!? A 2022 M235i GC- I must be getting old |
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 03:08 PM | #57 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
427
Rep 1,947
Posts |
Quote:
Auto Talent in Carson, CA. They have built approximately eight of the RD Sport S65 stroker motors, in addition to S85 stroker motors. RD Sport is in Anaheim, CA. They design and build stroker motors for S65 and S85. Both shops are competent to do this work. Both could quote you for the R&R and motor assembly. Crank resizing would be handled separately. I have a pretty good idea what it would cost from each shop. Then if you're interested in top of the line work, there's always Van Dyne Engineering in Huntington Beach CA. They won't remove and replace the engine, but they will build it for you. Expect to pay much more for this level of work however. Last edited by regular guy; 09-13-2013 at 03:22 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 03:17 PM | #58 | |||
Lieutenant Colonel
427
Rep 1,947
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
EDIT: NA: So far, I haven't seen any excessive wear on main bearings, especially #1 main bearings. I have seen a damaged crank due to bad main bearings, but it wasn't #1. FI: And I've only seen one FI set of main bearings, and I'd have to go take another look at the pictures to see if the #1 had any excessive wear on it. I don't think it did, but I will have to go check. If there's sufficient interest, PM me and I'll send you the photo of the mains that came out of this motor. Last edited by regular guy; 09-13-2013 at 03:29 PM.. |
|||
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 04:17 PM | #59 | |
First Lieutenant
7
Rep 311
Posts |
Quote:
Ebay UK turns up this at under £3k Sterling http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E90-E9...item4d0e4f22b3 A bit more expensive. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-M3-4-0...item4857918682 Or supply and fit http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-M3-E90...item1c367ff901 It's fairly easy to get a good verified engine over here for that kind of money. How about this for an option? I've done this myself years ago, so I know it works. In the absence of an undersize bearing from Clevite. A press tool can be made to sit the bearing half into. The press can be set to crush the malleable bearing by .0005" or whatever is required. The joint faces can be lapped back to standard on 240 wet and dry mounted on a surface plate. I know it sounds mad, but it can be done with a decent press tool. Once set, it could adjust hundreds of bearings. Last edited by Yellow Snow; 09-14-2013 at 04:42 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 08:34 PM | #60 | |
Major General
1570
Rep 8,075
Posts
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX
|
Quote:
So basically you are applying your observation on a VERY small and insignificant population of what's actually been produced to every car. You are sampling a non-representative sample of S65 and S85 engines...ones with identified issues. Back to my earlier statement...continue with your campaign of baseless fear.
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 08:55 PM | #61 | ||
Grease Monkey
293
Rep 2,646
Posts
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
|
Quote:
I am not aware of why all of the pans were removed but the findings were all rock solid! Tell me what happens when a bearing fails and siezes or spins in the rod? It usually results in severe engine crank journal and or damage to the block! Anyhow I don't want to waste the effort to discuss/defend my reasoning with you any more. To me it sounds like you don't want to believe it because you don't want to have to commit to repairing your engine and that is up to you. So see no evil hear no evil and all will be ok for you! I wish you many years of joy from your M3 and I hope you don't have any bearing issues. The fact of the matter is if you keep the car long enough and keep running the 10W60 you are highly likely to experience an issue with your rod bearings. Although I don't get joy from anyone loosing their engine.... At that point I will be saying "I told you so!" |
||
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2013, 10:14 PM | #62 |
Major General
1570
Rep 8,075
Posts
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX
|
Good, so you'll shut up about it now?
But you are still missing the point. I agree with your conclusion that there is some risk involved...coming from someone who has already rebuilt an S54 and owns an S54 and S65...with the bearings and the clearances. It's your assertion that everyone needs to automatically go to thinner oil and/or pull their engine to have high precision (and high risk) machine work done. And that 10w-60 oil will cause your rod bearings will spin, score and bend the crank, and blow the rod out of the sides of the block (that's happened to my m54.
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue |
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2013, 12:00 AM | #63 | |
Grease Monkey
293
Rep 2,646
Posts
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
|
Quote:
If majority of the other people on here would like me to stop posting please let me know and I will certainly oblige. Usually I get paid big money to work on and troubleshoot engine issues, I am offering my expertise on here free of charge to those who want it. For people like you, I highly doubt someone has a gun to your head making you read my posts and reply to them. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2013, 12:42 AM | #64 | |
Major General
890
Rep 9,031
Posts |
I'm hoping bigjae is a little drunk because he's usually one of the cooler guys here. No need to be attacking anyone here, whether you agree with them or not on this subject.
Quote:
Thanks. .
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2013, 12:51 AM | #65 | |
Major General
890
Rep 9,031
Posts |
Quote:
Most of the blown engines did not have a blower. This link doesn't even include all the shredded bearings people have been posting lately. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...light=registry .
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2013, 09:59 AM | #66 | |
Major General
1570
Rep 8,075
Posts
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX
|
Quote:
I think I usually am pretty laid back but not in this case. This is OUR community here online. We should all be here to share facts and discuss opinions. BMRLVR is NOT the only one this is targeted at but to all who shut people down and don't take the time to read responses. Usually not a big deal but there are people out there that are considering dishing out $000's to fix a perceived problem based on a couple of people's opinions that the S65 is an engine with this inherent issue in 100% of the production run and their assertion that they know more than BMW engineers. I do know this fact, I'll trust BMW engineers more than me and anyone on this forum. What has NEVER been answered (or at least I've never seen the explanation) is WHY? WHY did BMW make the clearances so tight? Before I put on an aftermarket modification the question that has to be answered in my mind if why is this part less than optimal for my application? Because you are sacrificing something since BMW optimizes parts to suit a number of attributes (cost, comfort, performance, reliability, etc.).
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue 2004 E46 M3 Imola Red 2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue |
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|