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      03-12-2018, 08:37 PM   #3213
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Chance of rod bearing failure is less than %1 stop being chicken and please enjoy your ride. Now take it out and rev it all the way to 8300 rpm..
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      03-13-2018, 12:54 PM   #3214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330ciprem View Post
96000 miles

With supercharger

On ORIGINAL BEARINGS

WITH TRACK DAYS

That's insane!!
You think non-forum members replace their bearings? Hell no! How many of them had a rod bearing problems? I don't think its even close to %1. I am not telling anyone "NOT" to replace it but all I know is I won't do it..
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      03-13-2018, 01:04 PM   #3215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
My Car:
E92 M3 build date = 07/2008
Current Mileage = 96,000 miles
Harrop Super Charger for last ~25,000 miles
Still on the Original Rod Bearings
Oil Top Ups done with Mobil-1 10W40 or 0W40 - BUT I have used 10W60 TWS for its whole life (so far).
Oil changes only ever done when the CBS iDrive said to do so - or about every 12K to 15K miles.

Car has had a hard life, and that's an understatement. See my profile page to know why. Daily driver mainly with near red line shifts routinely i.e. driven as hard on the street as I can get away with most of the time. South East ambient environment in an area that sees some ice and snow, but in recent years has also seen single digit temps some mornings. Always used and respected the dynamic red line zone. Never tracked, though my drive to work is most likely similar to some folks track driving. Always garaged at night unless on a business trip, but parked outside at work. Been running drag radials with the Harrop to get back second gear. Lots and lots of hard accel with the drag radials.

Perhaps due to normal wear my bearings have some extra clearance - by now - but after reading all 147 pages I am considering a switch to a thinner oil to mitigate the flow and clearance issues. Mobil-1 5W50 or Motul 0W40 are what I'm considering. Just wanted to put this data point out there. Maybe I got lucky over the cars 10 year life so far with the M1 10W40 or 0W40 top ups, because I never could find the 10W60 in stock anywhere.

PS:
The definitive Castrol TWS 10W-60 thread
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=295656
You have clearly a winner from the German lottery !
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      03-14-2018, 02:47 PM   #3216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
I said no track days "but driven on the street like some drive on the track". But the other statements are correct.
Oh - My bad!!

STILL SUPER IMPRESSIVE.
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      03-19-2018, 12:54 PM   #3217
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Hello everyone,

My 08 M3 has rod knock and bearings were replaced at 94k when subsequently the engine seized within 10 miles after I picked up car. Took car to AutoTalent in L.A. for a complete rebuild and Zolti did a great job rebuilding engine with a new crank, bearings, etc. now at 135k and engine has been running perfect as it did when I first picked it up from them. My question is at the time they put in the bearing we put Bmw oem bearings but with that special coating on the bearings to reduce friction. My limited knowledge of the subject leads me to believe if there was ever an option that allows more cleanrece it might be better. In the last 3 years has there been any new bearings that have been ran for 15-30k miles pulled and showed signs of minimal or no wear? I’d prefer to pull my bearings soon and put in a newer designed and tested bearings with more clearance that I won’t have to worry about for another 100k miles.
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      03-19-2018, 01:33 PM   #3218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven747 View Post
Hello everyone,

My 08 M3 has rod knock and bearings were replaced at 94k when subsequently the engine seized within 10 miles after I picked up car. Took car to AutoTalent in L.A. for a complete rebuild and Zolti did a great job rebuilding engine with a new crank, bearings, etc. now at 135k and engine has been running perfect as it did when I first picked it up from them. My question is at the time they put in the bearing we put Bmw oem bearings but with that special coating on the bearings to reduce friction. My limited knowledge of the subject leads me to believe if there was ever an option that allows more cleanrece it might be better. In the last 3 years has there been any new bearings that have been ran for 15-30k miles pulled and showed signs of minimal or no wear? I’d prefer to pull my bearings soon and put in a newer designed and tested bearings with more clearance that I won’t have to worry about for another 100k miles.
Has rod knock or had rod knock?

Also, are you referring to VAC's coated oem bearings or WPC treated oem bearings (people often refer to the WPC treatment as a coating)?

You will find long discussions on the forum about BE bearings which are produced with industry standard nominal clearance (significantly greater than oem), but I don't recall seeing any pulled with 15-30k miles yet.
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      03-19-2018, 02:01 PM   #3219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven747 View Post
Hello everyone,

My 08 M3 has rod knock and bearings were replaced at 94k when subsequently the engine seized within 10 miles after I picked up car. Took car to AutoTalent in L.A. for a complete rebuild and Zolti did a great job rebuilding engine with a new crank, bearings, etc. now at 135k and engine has been running perfect as it did when I first picked it up from them. My question is at the time they put in the bearing we put Bmw oem bearings but with that special coating on the bearings to reduce friction. My limited knowledge of the subject leads me to believe if there was ever an option that allows more cleanrece it might be better. In the last 3 years has there been any new bearings that have been ran for 15-30k miles pulled and showed signs of minimal or no wear? IÂ’d prefer to pull my bearings soon and put in a newer designed and tested bearings with more clearance that I wonÂ’t have to worry about for another 100k miles.
Please reach out the the class action lawyers looking into these failures. They want to talk to you!
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      06-10-2018, 08:47 PM   #3220
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Official ACL Rod Bearing Measurements

ACL Bearings



ACL Race Bearing Catalog: http://www.aclraceseries.com/images/catalog.pdf
Wiki: Full Technical Specifications
Photo Blog: About 100 full resolution photos

ACL Bearings has a long history in the automotive and racing bearing market. They are the latest company to throw their hat in the ring of S65 aftermarket bearings. ACL markets these bearings as extra clearance. The measurements below will show them to have a little extra clearance over stock bearings.


Appearance:

At first glance, the ACL bearings look worn and/or damaged. To the untrained eye, they might look like they just came out of an engine showing excessive bearing wear. Don't let the looks deceive you. This is normal appearance for ACL race bearings. ACL addresses this issue in their catalog with a lengthy description of their appearance. (See "Picture Description" below for a direct citation from the ACL bearing manual.)






Tools and Calibration

All measurements are performed on new "virgin" connecting rods and "virgin" connecting rod bolts. These rods and bolts have never been used in any engine. Using virgin rods and bolts is an essential step for obtaining reliable and calibrated results. After use, every connecting rod big-end is deformed with extra diameter. Using virgin rods and bolts ensures that the measurements obtained will be the same reference as a new factory engine. It's the only way we know to ensure repeatable and reliable results.



The image above shows the tools used for this job:
  • * Two virgin connecting rods (P/N: 11247838623)
    * Snapon electronic torque wrench (P/N: ATECH3FR250B)
    * Mitutoyo data-logging drop indicator (accurate to 0.00002 inch) (P/N: 543-562ACAL)
    * SPI bore gauge (accurate to 0.00005 inch)
    * 2-inch calibration ring
    * SPI gage blocks

The Mitutoyo drop indicator is used to measure each bearing thickness. It's a very pricey tool that is accurate to 0.00005 inch. It features the ability to data log to computer, categorize the results with go/no-go screen colors, and it's the same tool used by BE Bearings to measure each and every bearing shell thickness.

Before beginning to measure thickness, the instrument must be calibrated. The SPI gage blocks are used to set the proper instrument calibration.



The bore gauge used to measure the bearing clearance and eccentricity must be calibrated as well. The 2-inch bore gage shown in the picture is accurate to 0.00004 inch.




Production and Composition
Manufacturer: ACL

Composition: Trimetal steel/lead/copper

Coating: None

Part Number: 8B1580H (STD), 8B1580HX (+0.25 mm)

Target Market: OEM replacement market; Standard (factory) clearance, not extra.

ACL Bearings are a full custom rod bearing designed and manufactured by ACL. ACL manufactures the bearings to their own custom specifications.The composition is a standard lead/copper bearing. The bearing does not contain a low-friction coating.

Set Numbering
ACL RACE Series bearing sets are identified by the ‘H’ after the set number e.g. 8B663H-Std. Most ACL RACE Series bearings are also produced in a ‘HX’ version e.g. 8B663HX-Std. The ‘X’ signifies the set will give an extra .001” (.025mm) oil clearance on a standard size shaft when compared to the H-STD set. The wall size of these HX-STD bearings is .0005” (.013mm) thinner than the H-STD Bearings, in all other respects the HX set is identical to the H-STD set. There are selected con rod bearing sets that are manufactured with a dowel hole in the lower shell, to suit a dowel location in the con rod cap. These are designated with a ‘D’ in the set numbering e.g. 8B663HD-Std or 8B663HXD-Std etc.

Lead/Copper, Tri-Metal design
Tri-Metal, lead/copper are considered the world's best bearings. The steel backing is coated with copper, then topped with a soft lead. The lead is embeddable, meaning small particles can embed themselves in the lead without causing any damage to the crankshaft. Look in the best automotive engines, and you're likely to find a Tri-Metal bearing design.

Oil Clearances
Oil clearances are most accurately measured using micrometres and bore gauges. Bearing wall thickness measurements are taken at 90 degrees to the parting line (i.e. at the crown of the bearing) using a micrometre with a ball anvil, for use on the curved ID of the bearing.

Vertical oil clearance is best measured by assembling the bearing in its housing, with bolts torqued to specification, then using a bore gauge measure the assembled ID of the bearings at 90 degrees to the parting faces. The mating crankshaft journal size is measured, and subtracting this measurement from the bearing ID bore size, gives the assembled oil clearance.

ACL RACE bearings can be assembled with .00075-.001” per 1” of journal diameter (0.020-0.025mm per 25mm of journal diameter) plus .0005” (0.013mm).

As an example for a 2.000” (50mm) journal diameter, 2.000 x .001= .002 + .0005 = .0025” (50/25 x 0.025= 0.050 + .013 = 0.063 mm) Bearings should not be polished with abrasive pads or paper, on the bearing surface, to change the oil clearance.

Picture Description
Questions about the appearance of the RACE Series bearings are quite common, as this series of trimetal copper lead bearings have a very different appearance to regular aftermarket “ACL Duraglide” trimetal bearings, which have a light silver /grey appearance.

The RACE Series performance bearings as manufactured have an appearance that is a dark tarnished colouration, which can vary from dark black/brown/blue colours. This colour comes from the electroplating which is the last manufacturing process. The electroplated overlay has copper as one part of its composition, which tarnishes to the dark colours described above. This tarnish colouration has negligible thickness, so once installed in the engine, the crankshaft journal contacting the bearing, will polish the bearing surface, removing the surface colour and leaving the bearings with a polished silver appearance.

Performance bearings do not start out with the silver grey appearance of regular aftermarket bearings, as there is no final silvery tin flash applied to these bearings. Not applying a silvery tin flash to these high performance bearings is a specific design feature. A silvery tin flash for appearance and long term corrosion protection, as applied to the regular aftermarket bearings, can under high loading and heat, move, with the plate migrating and causing high spots on the back of the shells, and distorting the bearing. For this reason the ACL RACE Series performance bearings do not have a cosmetic silvery tin flash applied, so there is no risk of any overlay plate movement on the backs of the shells, giving better bearing to housing contact and better bearing performance and function.

Standard (STD)




+0.250 MM, +0.010 INCH


Dimensions
Standard (STD)


+0.250 MM, +0.010 INCH

Bearing Clearance Specifications

Clearance Measurements

Eccentricity Measurements


Bearing Eccentricity: ACL Bearings vs. stock 702/703 rod bearings

Supporting photos










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      06-10-2018, 09:46 PM   #3221
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Interesting....
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      06-11-2018, 03:53 AM   #3222
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Question - are these repackaged BE bearings? Why are several of your pictures taken directly from the BE site?
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      06-11-2018, 09:03 AM   #3223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by douglee25 View Post
Question - are these repackaged BE bearings? Why are several of your pictures taken directly from the BE site?
I'll answer that: no they are not "repacked" BE, ACL are their own company and bearing producer long before for instance BE got established. The reason measurements are taken by the BE folks are in my view because they generously responded to the crowd i.e. us.
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      06-11-2018, 07:21 PM   #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by douglee25 View Post
Question - are these repackaged BE bearings? Why are several of your pictures taken directly from the BE site?
You'll notice nobody, not any of the other manufacturers, will post any specs or measurements of their own. Bert's the only guy who's done it. That makes his wiki page the only place you'll find the pictures and data to back it up.
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      06-12-2018, 01:11 PM   #3225
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I agree. I wasn't questioning validity, I was just curious why a company was using another companies' pictures, that's all.
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      06-12-2018, 01:54 PM   #3226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by douglee25 View Post
I agree. I wasn't questioning validity, I was just curious why a company was using another companies' pictures, that's all.
Bert took all of those pictures himself. They appear at his wiki pages. What am I missing, here?
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      06-12-2018, 02:10 PM   #3227
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I'm confused then. The way it's presented above is that ACL bearings are being measured in pictures which actually belong to BE.
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      06-12-2018, 08:34 PM   #3228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by douglee25 View Post
I'm confused then. The way it's presented above is that ACL bearings are being measured in pictures which actually belong to BE.
Because BE people bought a set of ACL bearings and measured them so that we as a community would have access to additional data so we can make informed choices.
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      06-12-2018, 08:42 PM   #3229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharbag View Post
Because BE people bought a set of ACL bearings and measured them so that we as a community would have access to additional data so we can make informed choices.
Now that makes a lot more sense.

For someone who lightly keeps tabs on the subject, it would have been nice to say, "Hey guys, we at BE picked up a set of ACL bearings and here's what we measured."

Thanks for the clarification.
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      11-07-2018, 04:21 AM   #3230
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Located in Sydney Australia, yearly temps range from 5*C to 40+*C. My driving style is spirited, however i DO NOT like launching down the quarter mile, ripping burnouts and track racing. She only has 30,000km's and wish to preserve it the best i can.
Since owning an S65, i have like many, spent countless hours reading about oil. I have spent a further 3+ hours reading and searching through this thread today and also some time comparing data sheets from Castrol to Mobil & Redline.

The conclusion i have come to is that i need a thinner oil next service interval and beyond. But i can't work out which Brand/Spec/Base Stock is better and why?
I have had good experiences with Redline and Mobil in the past but not with this specific engine.

I would really appreciate the opinions of BMRLVR or Kawasaki00 on the below data sheets and the reasoning there of.

From my research, Redline uses Ester base, Mobile uses Synthetic base if this makes a difference or same same..?
I have got my head around Viscosity cSt and HTHS Viscosity; Below Data specs are all within 0.5 of each other and higher is better,right? Also TWS doesn't mention HTHS. Comparing numbers foolishly this leads me to the Redline 5W40 being the best one for the job, IMO.

The reason i ask is; The initial post that started this thread (Compliments to "regular guy")
Under the "Proposed Solutions: Thinner Oil" Heading; Conclusion was never properly answered.... Where it mentions Redline oils and lists the different data sheets, i could not find BMRLVR or Kawasaki00's responses.

If i am mistaken i am open to correction/education.

Thanks in advance


Castrol TWS (Ester Base)

Density @ 15 ̊C, Relative
ASTM D4052
g/ml = 0.853
Viscosity, Kinematic 100 ̊C
ASTM D445
mm2/s = 22.7
Viscosity, CCS -25 ̊C (10W)
ASTM D5293
mPa.s (cP) = 4879
Viscosity, Kinematic 40 ̊C
ASTM D445
mm2/s = 160
Viscosity Index
ASTM D2270 = 173
Pour Point
ASTM D97
°C
-39
Flash Point, PMCC
ASTM D93
°C = >200
Ash, Sulphated
ASTM D874
% wt = 1.29


Mobil 1 FS X2 5W-50 Value (Synthetic Base)

Viscosity, cSt ASTM D445
@ 40ºC 104.3
@ 100ºC 17.1
Viscosity Index 179
Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874) 1.34
Phosphorous, wt% (ASTM D4951) 0.1
Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92) 232
Pour Point, ºC -42
Density @15ºC g/ml, (ASTM D4052) 0.8499
Total Base Number (ASTM D2896) 12.6
MRV at -35ºC, cP (ASTM D4684) 24800
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC (ASTM D4683) 4.4


Redline 5W50 (Ester Base)

ACEA Service Class
A3 B3/B4
API Service Class
SN/SM/SL/CF
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil)
5W50
Vis @ 100°C
21.0
Vis @ 40°C
130
Viscosity Index
186
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @ °C
60@-30
Pour Point, °C
-45
Pour Point, °F
-49
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), %
6
HTHS Vis, cP @150°C, ASTM D4741
5.0


Redline 5W40 (Ester Base)

ACEA Service Class
A3 B3/B4
API Service Class
SN/SM/SL/CF
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil)
5W40
Vis @ 100°C, cSt
15.6
Vis @ 40°C, cSt
97
Viscosity Index
174
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @ °C
58@-30
Pour Point, °C
-45
Pour Point, °F
-49
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), %
6
HTHS Vis, cP @150°C, ASTM D4741
4.4
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      11-08-2018, 07:26 PM   #3231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yono325ic View Post
Located in Sydney Australia, yearly temps range from 5*C to 40+*C. My driving style is spirited, however i DO NOT like launching down the quarter mile, ripping burnouts and track racing. She only has 30,000km's and wish to preserve it the best i can.
Since owning an S65, i have like many, spent countless hours reading about oil. I have spent a further 3+ hours reading and searching through this thread today and also some time comparing data sheets from Castrol to Mobil & Redline.

The conclusion i have come to is that i need a thinner oil next service interval and beyond. But i can't work out which Brand/Spec/Base Stock is better and why?
I have had good experiences with Redline and Mobil in the past but not with this specific engine.

I would really appreciate the opinions of BMRLVR or Kawasaki00 on the below data sheets and the reasoning there of.

From my research, Redline uses Ester base, Mobile uses Synthetic base if this makes a difference or same same..?
I have got my head around Viscosity cSt and HTHS Viscosity; Below Data specs are all within 0.5 of each other and higher is better,right? Also TWS doesn't mention HTHS. Comparing numbers foolishly this leads me to the Redline 5W40 being the best one for the job, IMO.

The reason i ask is; The initial post that started this thread (Compliments to "regular guy")
Under the "Proposed Solutions: Thinner Oil" Heading; Conclusion was never properly answered.... Where it mentions Redline oils and lists the different data sheets, i could not find BMRLVR or Kawasaki00's responses.

If i am mistaken i am open to correction/education.

Thanks in advance


Castrol TWS (Ester Base)

Density @ 15 ̊C, Relative
ASTM D4052
g/ml = 0.853
Viscosity, Kinematic 100 ̊C
ASTM D445
mm2/s = 22.7
Viscosity, CCS -25 ̊C (10W)
ASTM D5293
mPa.s (cP) = 4879
Viscosity, Kinematic 40 ̊C
ASTM D445
mm2/s = 160
Viscosity Index
ASTM D2270 = 173
Pour Point
ASTM D97
°C
-39
Flash Point, PMCC
ASTM D93
°C = >200
Ash, Sulphated
ASTM D874
% wt = 1.29


Mobil 1 FS X2 5W-50 Value (Synthetic Base)

Viscosity, cSt ASTM D445
@ 40ºC 104.3
@ 100ºC 17.1
Viscosity Index 179
Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874) 1.34
Phosphorous, wt% (ASTM D4951) 0.1
Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92) 232
Pour Point, ºC -42
Density @15ºC g/ml, (ASTM D4052) 0.8499
Total Base Number (ASTM D2896) 12.6
MRV at -35ºC, cP (ASTM D4684) 24800
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC (ASTM D4683) 4.4


Redline 5W50 (Ester Base)

ACEA Service Class
A3 B3/B4
API Service Class
SN/SM/SL/CF
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil)
5W50
Vis @ 100°C
21.0
Vis @ 40°C
130
Viscosity Index
186
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @ °C
60@-30
Pour Point, °C
-45
Pour Point, °F
-49
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), %
6
HTHS Vis, cP @150°C, ASTM D4741
5.0


Redline 5W40 (Ester Base)

ACEA Service Class
A3 B3/B4
API Service Class
SN/SM/SL/CF
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil)
5W40
Vis @ 100°C, cSt
15.6
Vis @ 40°C, cSt
97
Viscosity Index
174
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @ °C
58@-30
Pour Point, °C
-45
Pour Point, °F
-49
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), %
6
HTHS Vis, cP @150°C, ASTM D4741
4.4
For the driving you are doing The Belgium Castrol 0-40 would be the best option. It may not be available but try to look for it. NONE of the 5-50s are really that good. They cant hold that film strength long term. A 10-50 can hold the 50wt number longer but it is also a 10wt base so that may not work for you.
Never been a fan of the Redline stuff, we have ran it in motorsports world and just could never get it to work. It is high in NOACK so it does coke pistons up more than group 5 oils.
Stay away from the newer Mobil 0-40 FS also, it is not as good as the older stuff.
The Pennzoil 0-40 ultra euro or whatever they call it is really good. But dang is it expensive. Super low in Noack and it is one of the only oils that we have tried that continuously seems to have less consumption than the rest.
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      11-08-2018, 07:43 PM   #3232
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What Redline oils have you used, specifically, to make such a statement ?!
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      11-08-2018, 09:23 PM   #3233
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In my old e30 m20b25 and e36 m50b28 I have used Redline 5W40 and both engines ran a lot quieter. The tappets sounded smoother, and the engine just felt happier at high revs. This was after using mobile 5W30 at the time.
Maybe the BMW engines love the ester base stock oils. Hence why I'm asking is someone could shine some light on the syn/ester topic specific to BMW engines???
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      11-09-2018, 11:18 AM   #3234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
What Redline oils have you used, specifically, to make such a statement ?!
Most of the 40wt stuff, including blended ones that are not for sale. I am sure they have things that work for a lot of folks. We have found better though, especially at 400 degrees oil out temp
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