ESS 650 S/C + Water Meth - Much Improved Results

[Longboarder]

I attended the Shift-S3ctor dyno day at EAS. It was fucking awesome of course. Bunch of cool guys and some sick cars. Right after bubu and I dyno'd our ESS S/C M3's, some 911T rear-drive conversion hopped on and made 850 RWHP/TQ on 28psi

Anyway I was happy with my results as I made more power with water meth on compared to when I turned it off. Although it may have been a result of being a little cooler as the IAT chart doesn't show a decline in IATs with water/meth on. Strange.

Previous water/meth posts are here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883705

My dynos are posted below. Runs 66 (blue) and 67 (red) were done on 93 octane with water/meth on (225ml/min nozzle). Car loved it and made ~ 581 wheel both times. I had a bit of a leak in the water/meth line so I turned off the water/meth, added 5 gallons of 103 octane to my half tank of 93 octane (to yield ~ 97 octane) and reset adaptations. Let the car cool down for a couple hours and dyno'd again. Runs 68 (green) @ 571 RWHP and 69 (purple) @ 579 RWHP were the result.

My first two runs cut off early when scaling off engine speed so I've posted the first dyno graph using mph speed...although there are some isolated torque readings scaling using mph speed so I've also posted the scaling using engine speed below it.

Getting the water/meth line fixed today and I'm ready for Shift-S3ctor. Car is running great but I'm getting a lot of wheel spin above 7,500 rpm in 2nd and 3rd gear so I'll need to be careful out there not to fuck up.

Peace.

[8k3]

Awesome. 50/50 mix? What are all your snow performance settings?

[JDM3]

nice results! I would recommend ditching your PSS for a set of R888's. If the car isn't your DD, their is no better tire for traction. I get minimal wheelspin going into 2nd and beyond is none!

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by 8k3

Awesome. 50/50 mix? What are all your snow performance settings?

Yeah boost juice (51 water/49 meth). Using a 225ml/min nozzle. Controller is set to begin meth flow around 2psi and max flow is reached at 16psi. Because I'm making less than 8psi, only 50% of max flow is reached.

Originally Posted by 1SICKM

nice results! I would recommend ditching your PSS for a set of R888's. If the car isn't your DD, their is no better tire for traction. I get minimal wheelspin going into 2nd and beyond is none!

Thanks. I was getting even worse wheel spin in cold conditions with my track set up (18" RS3's). They hook up great when it's hot but terrible when cold so I went back to my stock ZCP wheels with the PSS. R888's don't come in 275 35 19 and I don't want to run a 295 30 on my ZCPs (I personally think it looks terrible with 10" wheels and stock suspension). To run the R888's I may just need to add coils to drop the car a little.

[xtyper313]

Great results Adam. Nice seeing you at dyno day and happy to see your car back running in top form.

Can't wait to line up with you at Shift S3ctor...gonna be a great matchup.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by xtyper313

Great results Adam. Nice seeing you at dyno day and happy to see your car back running in top form.

Can't wait to line up with you at Shift S3ctor...gonna be a great matchup.

So my highest RWTQ reading of the day was 370. 370 x 2 = 740. That means you make more than twice the torque of a supercharged M3!

Your results were awesome. I can't believe the consistency in that RennTech tune with your back to back dynos. Amazing. Probably means there's a lot more HP in the tuning if you went all-out.

Let me smoke a couple modded GTRs and upgraded turbo 911's before we run so I don't feel so humiliated getting beat by your executive grocery getter.

[JDM3]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Yeah boost juice (51 water/49 meth). Using a 225ml/min nozzle. Controller is set to begin meth flow around 2psi and max flow is reached at 16psi. Because I'm making less than 8psi, only 50% of max flow is reached.

Thanks. I was getting even worse wheel spin in cold conditions with my track set up (18" RS3's). They hook up great when it's hot but terrible when cold so I went back to my stock ZCP wheels with the PSS. R888's don't come in 275 35 19 and I don't want to run a 295 30 on my ZCPs (I personally think it looks terrible with 10" wheels and stock suspension). To run the R888's I may just need to add coils to drop the car a little.

I'm running Morr 19x9 and 19x10 with eibachs and 265/295..its perfect!

[whats77inaname]

Good info, thanks for posting. You're still running the stock ESS tune, correct?

[JEllis]

Nice

[flipm3]

Great data as always! I can't wait to see some footage from Shift S3ctor!

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by 1SICKM

I'm running Morr 19x9 and 19x10 with eibachs and 265/295..its perfect!

Ok maybe time to think about upgrading tires.

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

Good info, thanks for posting. You're still running the stock ESS tune, correct?

Yes the standard ESS 650 tune. Not sure if there are any other options for me at this point ??

Originally Posted by JEllis

Nice

Thx man. Still waiting to see your car in person.

Originally Posted by flipm3

Great data as always! I can't wait to see some footage from Shift S3ctor!

Thanks flip - yeah I'm pretty excited about Shift S3ctor. Lots of really high HP cars this time. At the first SS roll-on event on 11-11-2011 I would have been one of the fastest cars there...now at this rate in a couple more events I will be the slowest!

[e92livin]

Wow you hit 410wtq, how does the car feel with w/m? and how are the temps?

[CSL_E36]

So this result is courtesy of the 250mm nozzle?

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by 96LTWM3

So this result is courtesy of the 250mm nozzle?

We just switched it to a even smaller nozzle last night, and going to re-dyno and see if it will respond better. Its been a fun R&D process playing with water/meth on Longboarders setup. But hoping to optimize the system without having to actually tune for meth via the DME and have the car relay on the octane boost from the auxiliary injection. The preference has been to not have to tune for it even though he and I both know that its the best way to maximize power.

[JDM3]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

We just switched it to a even smaller nozzle last night, and going to re-dyno and see if it will respond better. Its been a fun R&D process playing with water/meth on Longboarders setup. But hoping to optimize the system without having to actually tune for meth via the DME and have the car relay on the octane boost from the auxiliary injection. The preference has been to not have to tune for it even though he and I both know that its the best way to maximize power.

This is why I decided on the Aquamist system, spraying off of injector duty cycle is way more accurate and linear in the spray.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by 1SICKM

This is why I decided on the Aquamist system, spraying off of injector duty cycle is way more accurate and linear in the spray.

Curious what you see as the advantages of the Aquamist system vs the Snow System.

Because I'm not tuning for meth, I chose the Snow system since there are a variety of nozzles plus the controller dictates as what psi meth flow starts plus it also allows for adjustment of the flow percentage. So right now, I've set meth to flow at 4psi and reach max flow at 16psi...because I'm running less than 8psi, I never reach max flow in the nozzle I use.

So there are an unlimited number of combinations with the different nozzles and variables within the controller. I saw this as a positive since I had no idea going into this as to what the car would best respond to.

So we knew going into this that we were going to have to play around with it for a while to see what combo of nozzles, flow onset, and % flow would work best. Unfortunately I have to do the testing on a dyno because I don't have a data logger to gather data in real-world conditions.

I also know that on the dyno, the car responds very poorly when things are changed on the fly (trying different nozzle sizes and changing the controller) without resetting adaptations.

It took a little tinkering but largely I think we've figured it out.

[pbonsalb]

So you are flowing a max of only about 100 cc of 50/50 water meth mix? That is very, very, very, very little in the world of meth injection.

Given the size and number of your fuel injectors, it is not enough to raise octane measurably -- your mix is in the range of 1-2% meth to fuel, meaning your octane would be raised by only a tenth or two or three -- like 93 to 93.2.

It is really there for cooling only, and I am surprised that so little seems to have any measurable effect. Maybe the intercooler is just a little small (or not efficient enough) for sustained boost runs -- those are the kinds of runs that really test the system.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by e92livin

Wow you hit 410wtq, how does the car feel with w/m? and how are the temps?

Actually the 410 was a dyno anomaly as there was a couple strange hiccups but if you look at the second dyno chart (scaled by RPM), max torque was 370. With your Gintani set up (Vortech blower), the dyno graph should probably looks a lot like mine. Have you dyno'd yet? Josh (tightie) posted his dyno here a few months ago as well. Very strong results.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

So you are flowing a max of only about 100 cc of 50/50 water meth mix? That is very, very, very, very little in the world of meth injection.

Given the size and number of your fuel injectors, it is not enough to raise octane measurably -- your mix is in the range of 1-2% meth to fuel, meaning your octane would be raised by only a tenth or two or three -- like 93 to 93.2.

It is really there for cooling only, and I am surprised that so little seems to have any measurable effect. Maybe the intercooler is just a little small (or not efficient enough) for sustained boost runs -- those are the kinds of runs that really test the system.

Yes you are 100% correct. I am only using the water/meth to keep IATs in check...particularly when I track the vehicle (sustained WOT conditions over ~ 20 minutes - I do not believe the air/water intercooling system is sufficient for tracking). With all this testing, I am drawing the following (unscientific) conclusions:

1) Too much water/meth without tuning seems to lower power. Perhaps because the meth is adding more fuel and AFRs are decreasing causing a "richer" condition.

2) Too much octane decreases power. On this last dyno, I was barely running any water/meth and 93 octane and I made 581 RWHP. On my first dyno session with the 650 kit and no meth, I made 583 RWHP on roughly 94 to 95 octane. After turning water meth off on my last dyno session and adding MS 104, I made 571/577 RWHP.

So keeping water/meth to a minimum (~ 100ml/min max) and keeping octane at ~ 93-95 seems to be where my car likes it the most.

[e92livin]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Actually the 410 was a dyno anomaly as there was a couple strange hiccups but if you look at the second dyno chart (scaled by RPM), max torque was 370. With your Gintani set up (Vortech blower), the dyno graph should probably looks a lot like mine. Have you dyno'd yet? Josh (tightie) posted his dyno here a few months ago as well. Very strong results.



Yes you are 100% correct. I am only using the water/meth to keep IATs in check...particularly when I track the vehicle (sustained WOT conditions over ~ 20 minutes - I do not believe the air/water intercooling system is sufficient for tracking). With all this testing, I am drawing the following (unscientific) conclusions:

1) Too much water/meth without tuning seems to lower power. Perhaps because the meth is adding more fuel and AFRs are decreasing causing a "richer" condition.

2) Too much octane decreases power. On this last dyno, I was barely running any water/meth and 93 octane and I made 581 RWHP. On my first dyno session with the 650 kit and no meth, I made 583 RWHP on roughly 94 to 95 octane. After turning water meth off on my last dyno session and adding MS 104, I made 571/577 RWHP.

So keeping water/meth to a minimum (~ 100ml/min max) and keeping octane at ~ 93-95 seems to be where my car likes it the most.

I dyno'd on a mobile dynojet a month or so ago, the dyno spiked pretty hard but it put down 500whp on the first two runs and then 603whp on the last one but the dyno spiked pretty hard on that run so I wouldn't even count that as a pull. I have to dyno again before I park my car for the winter. My buddies ESS 650 car dyno'd on the same dyno he put down 525whp so something wasn't right that day he should be making plenty more along with myself, it feels way faster than 500whp.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by e92livin

I dyno'd on a mobile dynojet a month or so ago, the dyno spiked pretty hard but it put down 500whp on the first two runs and then 603whp on the last one but the dyno spiked pretty hard on that run so I wouldn't even count that as a pull. I have to dyno again before I park my car for the winter. My buddies ESS 650 car dyno'd on the same dyno he put down 525whp so something wasn't right that day he should be making plenty more along with myself, it feels way faster than 500whp.

Yeah I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that dyno. If you can, go to a legit in-ground dynojet and retry. Just make sure it's a place that has dyno'd M3s before. Then post up and we can analyze to see whether there are any issues to address.

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by 1SICKM

nice results! I would recommend ditching your PSS for a set of R888's. If the car isn't your DD, their is no better tire for traction. I get minimal wheelspin going into 2nd and beyond is none!

How do r888s go in the rain?

[JDM3]

Couldn't tell you as my car doesn't go out in the rain. It's not my DD. Got caught once and it wasn't too bad. I wouldn't recommend these tires if its your DD and you will be driving in the rain.