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12-23-2009, 04:51 PM | #1 |
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HELP: Vibration (not a balance issue)
Scenario: My winter tires were fine last year -- great traction, smooth running. My summer tires were fine all summer and fall. I put my winter tires back on (same ones I took off last year), and at anything over 65 MPH, the steering wheel vibrates like crazy.
I had all 4 wheels re-balanced. Slight improvement, but it's still bad. I took the car to the dealer. They say the wheels don't fit on the hubs properly -- I need a centering ring. I didn't need one last year! (FYI, the car is an E90 sedan.) The package came from TireRack, ordered through Ben. Wheels are the 18x8 Sport Edition A7s; tires are 245/40R18 Dunlop Winter Sport 3D. Anybody got any ideas for me??
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Previously... Threes: '08 E90 M3, '07 E92 335i, Fives: '11 F10 550i, '02 E39 M5, '00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i Others: VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds |
12-23-2009, 07:32 PM | #2 |
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Check With Tire Rack
They should/would have provided the center rings with your wheels if you needed them. They can tell you the specs on your wheels and whether they should have rings. If you can, check the hub bore on one of your wheels compared to the wheel pilot on the hubs. The wheel should only be a few thousandths (of an inch) larger.
I would expect that with the tapered seat wheel bolts that the wheels would center pretty well without the hub pilot feature, but have no personal experience with how critical the hub wheel pilot is on BMWs. In general, hub piloting is superior to stud piloting. Be sure that your mounting surfaces are clean and that your wheels are seating flat on the hub mounting surface.
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12-24-2009, 08:17 AM | #3 |
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I had a conversation with Ben about this last year. I have the same wheel/tire combo and had a pretty noticeable vibration even after re-balancing. He said that the wheels and tires individually have no problems but the combination of those two together just don't work right. From what I can tell the wheels fit pretty snug on the hub so I don't think it is a centering issue but it is possible.
This fall I had them road force balanced before putting them on and that has made a world of difference. I can still feel some vibrations above 70MPH but it is difficult to distinguish that from the crappy roads around here. |
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12-24-2009, 09:39 AM | #4 |
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(I'm the OP.)
I went to the dealer this morning with the summer front tires to see if there was any difference. You can move the winter wheel/tire around on the hub (maybe 1/8" of play -- probably less than that). They dismounted the winter wheel/tire and mounted one of the summer units. No movement, even with just one lug nut in place. What is confounding is that this wasn't a problem last year. So, as we were looking at the wheels, I suggested that they use a wire brush to get rid of most of the anti-seize compound on the hub and on the matching surface on the wheel and re-mount the winter tires. It's not perfect, but it's a whole lot better. I guess the wheel was "floating" on an excess of anti-seize. Does that sound plausible??
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Previously... Threes: '08 E90 M3, '07 E92 335i, Fives: '11 F10 550i, '02 E39 M5, '00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i Others: VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds |
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12-24-2009, 12:04 PM | #6 |
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I have the same issue with the vibration and had the wheels rebalanced last year. It made a small difference but still quite noticable. Seems to crop up between 100-130km/h, but around 130kmh it goes away (which is good since that is the speed limit here). This past week I tried higher speeds in Germany and the vibration was non-existent from about 140kmh to around 200-220kmh.
Although the vibration doesn't seem too strong at the steering wheel, is there cause for concern with extra wear on suspension components (ie. bushings etc?). Has anyone with the A7 wheels spoken with Tirerack about what they think? |
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12-24-2009, 12:46 PM | #7 |
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I have the exact same issue with vibration using the same Tire Rack setup . Some speeds have much more vibration than others. I had a full rebalance but it didn't help.
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12-24-2009, 01:58 PM | #8 | |
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Several of you have issues with the setup. You should definitely talk to Ben when he's back from the holidays on the 28th.
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12-28-2009, 07:09 AM | #11 | ||
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Quote:
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TireRack Ben, I think we could use your guidance here!
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Previously... Threes: '08 E90 M3, '07 E92 335i, Fives: '11 F10 550i, '02 E39 M5, '00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i Others: VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds |
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12-28-2009, 07:46 AM | #12 |
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I had this problem from the beginning with my winter tires. Turned out to be a bad tire. Front two were replaced under warranty. Problem is gone now.
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12-28-2009, 07:55 AM | #13 | |
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Mileage on the winter tires is low (maybe 4-5000kms so far total) so not much in the way of wear front to back yet either. |
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12-29-2009, 06:38 PM | #14 |
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Hi Guys, I am back in the office after my Christmas vacation, and thanks for bringing this to my attention.
That wheel is built to be hubcentric on the M3. It should have a 72.56mm centerbore. If anyone who is having an issue with vibration could get a micrometer measurement of the inner bore (ignore any chamfer or bevel, measure where it is smooth) and let me know, I would be interested. If the micrometer does not read 100ths of a mm, it should measure out to either 72.5 or 72.6 depending on the calibration. I have sent out a ton of these wheels, and have seen very few issues with vibration, but I definitely want to find out if there are any irregularities.
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12-30-2009, 06:48 AM | #15 | |
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One other fact to stir into the mix. In my case, this is my second season on the wheels. They were fine last year, so the inner bore wasn't a problem last year. That's what's so confounding.
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Previously... Threes: '08 E90 M3, '07 E92 335i, Fives: '11 F10 550i, '02 E39 M5, '00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i Others: VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds |
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01-03-2010, 12:29 PM | #16 |
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Just to add another data point to this thread, I too have the Sport Edition A7 wheels with Bridgestone Blizaaks and have the vibration issue. When my stock 19" summer wheels/tires are mounted the steering wheel is rock solid no matter the speed.
At the end of the winter season last year I took care to mark the wheels and tires so I knew where they were mounted. I rotated the wheels from front to back and the vibration is not only back this year....it's actually worse. I'll take a measurement of the inner bore as soon as I can and report back.
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01-04-2010, 06:57 AM | #17 | |
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2014 F10 M5
Previously... Threes: '08 E90 M3, '07 E92 335i, Fives: '11 F10 550i, '02 E39 M5, '00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i Others: VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds |
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01-04-2010, 06:21 PM | #18 |
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Hey guys, to help give some insight to this issue, there was a time period when BMW produced the E39 5 series and that vehicle chassis was built with a hub that was 74mm compared to the std 72.6, at that time even though the chassis is different from the 3 series, many wheel suppliers for BMW built all the base wheels to a 74mm C/B because it was easier to ring down than to expect customers to go find a machine shop to open the bore. Typically what does happen in many cases of swapping wheels, is the ring can get stuck inside the wheels coming off, or pop out once they are laid flat on the floor and they can be misplaced once they have been moved, or the ring could be seated to the hub and the new wheel has the correct bore and simply not sitting on the pad all the way?? The ring is a very thin ring.
Also with other aftermarket brands, many companies that build a wheel with a similar PCD and offset also will produce the wheels with a similar ring package, it is best to check with the manufacturer. In the case where you took off aftermarket wheels to put back on stocks...the aftermarket most likely took a ring and it was lost, or is on your hub causing a vibration with your factory wheels because they are not seated to the mounting pad. I hope this information is helpful. Jim |
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01-06-2010, 12:28 PM | #19 |
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^^All good info above but this wheel does not use a ring. So all of Jim's theories make perfect sense, but this wheel should be bored for the "standard" 72.56mm BMW hub.
I am very eager to hear from anyone who has micrometer measurements of the wheel centerbore. If anyone gets micrometer measurements, definitely PM me.
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01-13-2010, 07:09 AM | #20 |
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Anybody have a micrometer? Ben, would one of your installers have one?
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2014 F10 M5
Previously... Threes: '08 E90 M3, '07 E92 335i, Fives: '11 F10 550i, '02 E39 M5, '00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i Others: VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds |
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01-18-2010, 12:35 PM | #21 |
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Ben, a minor update. I dismounted the front wheels/tires (A7 with Dunlop 3Ds 235/40-18) and remounted them after "wiggling" them around some. These wheels/tires are on their second season (last year they got around 4-5000kms). I also followed the star pattern tightening format and torqued them in two stages.
After putting the wheels back on, the vibration seems to be lessened in the 100-120km/h range, but is worse (!) above that...insofar as before once I drove faster that around 120km/h, the vibration stopped. I'm not sure what to make of this. I looked at the wheels weights too and I see no signs of any weights having come off. Last year when I first mounted the A7s, I had the same vibration on the front, but it seemed to improve a little bit after I pulled the wheels off (the rebalancing that I had done here did not help)...but it was still there up to around 120kmh. When I first mounted the wheels this season, I rotated front to back to equalize the wear. I am trying to find a micrometer to take a measurement. |
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02-25-2010, 07:14 AM | #22 |
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So, has anybody come up with a solution, or are we all just bouncing around on lousy wheels?
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Previously... Threes: '08 E90 M3, '07 E92 335i, Fives: '11 F10 550i, '02 E39 M5, '00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i Others: VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds |
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