Why can't/doesn't the m3 sound like a ferrari?

[5erman]

I guess I know the answer to why from the factory an m3 doesnt sound like a ferrari-may be simply too loud. However I have not seen many exhausts that sound like an exotic or atleast most of them do not. I guess I am wondering why in general this car doesnt sound more like a ferrari or exotic. I mean the f430 and many ferraris have had High revving V8 with lower displacement-but even the m3 engine revs higher or as high as those ferrari's and yet not the same crazy sound.

Is there a factor I am missing why this car cannot sound like this? I know "its not a ferrari" obviously but the components to making that sound should be there. Someone please enlighten me as I wonder about exhaust sound capabilities often and to me this car has what it takes to be a ferrari sound a like.

Even the M5/m6 currently can sound pretty exotic and it only revs to 7800. Given its a v10, the high pitch wale is much more dependent on RPM"s IMO--I dont get it!

[Definitive]

Hmmm, mine does!

You just need a German - Italian translation exhaust. Does the trick well.

D

[FStop7]

Because it's not a Ferrari. No flat plane crank, different head design, different exhaust design, etc.

BTW - The M5/M6 revs to 8250.

[LateBraking]

Start by Googling cross plank vs flat plane.

[Erhan]

Well, I'm not an mechanical engineer or have extensive knowledge on engines, but just because they have same displacement, cylinder count, and red line, you can't expect them to sound similar. There are tons of differences on how they're implemented.

Think of it like this: Just because 2 tires have the same size, load rating, speed rating, they won't handle the same.

btw, do you guys know a good book / online resource about combustion engines? It can be a little more complicated than "combustion engines for dummies".

[///Matthew]

Originally Posted by 5erman

Even the M5/m6 currently can sound pretty exotic and it only revs to 7800.

My s2000 reved to 9000 RPM. So by your logic, it should sound more like a Ferrari, than say a Ferrari...

[e46e92love]

Flat-plane crank is what your missing.......put one of those into the S65 and she will sound like an exotic.....

Cheers,
e46e92

[Gkap]

the M3 is an amazing car but it is by no means a exotic or supercar
hence it not sounding like one.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Flat-plane crank is what your missing.......put one of those into the S65 and she will sound like an exotic.....

Cheers,
e46e92

So I was checking the wikipedia. It says that cross-plane requires heavy counterweightes on the crankshaft. And then it says this makes the engine a low revving engine. So how does BMW makes the S65 rev to 8400rpm?

Originally Posted by wikipedia

There are two classic types of V8s which differ by crankshaft:


*The cross-plane or two-plane crankshaft is the configuration used in most V8 road cars. The first and last of the four crank pins are at 180° with respect to each other as are the second and third, with each pair at 90° to the other, so that viewed from the end the crankshaft forms a cross. The cross-plane can achieve very good balance but requires heavy counterweights on the crankshaft. This makes the cross-plane V8 a slow-revving engine that cannot speed up or slow down very quickly compared to other designs, because of the greater rotating mass. While the firing of the cross-plane V8 is regular overall, the firing of each bank is LRLLRLRR. In stock cars with dual exhausts, this results in the typical V8 burble sound that many people have come to associate with American V8s, In all-out racing cars it leads to the need to connect exhaust pipes between the two banks to design an optimal exhaust system, resulting in an exhaust system that resembles a bundle of snakes as in the Ford GT40. This complex and encumbering exhaust system has been a major problem for single-seater racing car designers, so they tend to use flat-plane crankshafts instead.

*The flat-plane or single-plane crankshaft has crank pins at 180°. They are imperfectly balanced and thus produce vibrations unless balance shafts are used, with a counter rotating pair flanking the crankshaft to counter second order vibration transverse to the crankshaft centerline. As it does not require counterweights, the crankshaft has less mass and thus inertia, allowing higher rpm and quicker acceleration. The design was popularized in modern racing with the Coventry Climax 1.5 L (~92 cu in) V8 that evolved from a cross-plane to a flat-plane configuration. Flat-plane V8s on road cars come from Ferrari, (every V8 model they ever made, from the 1973 308 GT4, to today's F430 and California), Lotus (the Esprit V8), and TVR (the Speed Eight). This design is popular in racing engines, the most famous example being the Cosworth DFV.[16]

[sensi09]

As mentioned the flat plane is key. This is actually a pretty common question on various forums.

And people on this forum are always searching for that "exotic" sounding exhaust, so nothing wrong with the question IMO.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by erhanh

So I was checking the wikipedia. It says that cross-plane requires heavy counterweightes on the crankshaft. And then it says this makes the engine a low revving engine. So how does BMW makes the S65 rev to 8400rpm?

Ask PG, he would know better than I, but a lot goes into low inertia (which leads to fast revving engines, which is what really makes the S65 special, not just high-revving).

Also, from my understanding, counterweights are not needed if the crank is machined right. Its a total design package that you have to look at. But again, I'm not the guy to ask.

Cheers,
e46e92

[James T. Kirk]

I agree. Let's be nice.

Perhaps a better pursuit would be recommendations on exhaust systems.

[emthreeboy]

OP check out the Lemas E92 GTR M3s, they got ''Flat plane crank V8s'', pretty sure thats what you're looking for! The build is possible too, if you got the time and money.

[5erman]

Wow some really unfriendly comments. I am not a troll just didn't feel a need to say "Hi I am new and I am buying an m3" Who would care!

Anyway It was meant as a serious question. I actually like reading about engines and cars and have learned a lot over 4 years owning my first bimmer-07 530 and have enjoyed every minute of driving. I have always enjoyed the high revving M cars and have always wanted one and am luckily now in position to get one. So there is my story-see who the hell cares!

Anyway-I apologize if it came off as a joke-it is an honest question.

I guess it does not make as much sense that the m5/m6 with ALMOST the same engine minus 2 cylinders can very much sound exotic/ferrari like with multiple exausts I have heard. This would seem to me plausible that the m3 could sound similar.

Listening to some exhausts it sounds like a full exhaust/xpipe and the right rear section can make some nice sounds but not quite like the full RPI on an m5 for example which sounds pretty lambo like if you ask me.

Anyway thanks for the posters who contributed-I am no engine builder/engineer, I am the medical type but enjoy science and I had no idea about the flat plane idea-So will go do some reading. That was the kind of info I was hoping for, something to learn and understand more and more. I really enjoyed learning as much as I could about the car I owned and feel I do and now am starting to learn about this one-just getting into the hobby of owning/buying cars.

Thanks again!

[Jason]

Let's please try to be helpful (or at least not sarcastic/intolerant) everyone. What's a silly or elementary question to you may not be to another. Thank you.

Off-topics posts removed.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by FStop7

Because it's not a Ferrari. No flat plane crank, different head design, different exhaust design, etc.

BTW - The M5/M6 revs to 8250.

+1

Originally Posted by ///Matthew

My s2000 reved to 9000 RPM. So by your logic, it should sound more like a Ferrari, than say a Ferrari...

LOL

[5erman]

Originally Posted by emthreeboy

OP check out the Lemas E92 GTR M3s, they got ''Flat plane crank V8s'', pretty sure thats what you're looking for! The build is possible too, if you got the time and money.

wow thanks. I just did some reading. Had no idea about the flat crank. I have never owned a v8 so was kind of tied up learning about the I6 engines in the last years.

I guess that explains less of the "burble" in a V8 and more smooth sound.

However I am no sound engineer either but the things I read tend to imply the flat crank ALLOWS higher revs typically. However if you get the revs higher with the cross design I still am not sure sound wise why with the right headers/exhaust tubing you could not tune to a higher pitch ferrari sound.

If there is a sound engineer or exhaust tuning expert I would be curious on input regarding how tunable a sound is and the main characteristics.

How about the Nissan GTR TT V6 that is LOUD and pretty exotic, the last I6 m3/s54 was not exotic but pretty high pitched with the right exhaust.

I am sure high revs indeed contribute to the ferrari like sound and the overall speed of exhaust gases. If someon can explain the flat crank influence on sound more that would be helpful thanks!

[Serious]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Ask PG, he would know better than I, but a lot goes into low inertia (which leads to fast revving engines, which is what really makes the S65 special, not just high-revving).

Also, from my understanding, counterweights are not needed if the crank is machined right. Its a total design package that you have to look at. But again, I'm not the guy to ask.

Cheers,
e46e92

it will always require counterweights or the crank will vibrate itself apart.

the s65 gets away with high revs because the strengths of modern alloys and forging techniques allow the bottom end components the ability to deal with the forces at 8000+ rpm, as the case is in most modern performance engines the bottleneck for power is in the top end and the requirement to produce low end torque as well as meeting emissions regulations & having acceptable fuel mileage.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by 5erman

......the ferrari like sound and the overall speed of exhaust gases....

I would like to know how the overall speed of the M3 gases compares to a Ferrari and how this affects the sound that comes out the tailpipes.

*Mods, please don't delete. I am not being sarcastic and really want to learn more about the speed of gases. Thank you.

[OverDrive]

Here's a good animation I found comparing cross plane vs. flat plane.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by OverDrive

Here's a good animation I found comparing cross plane vs. flat plane.

I actually like that. Cool!

[5erman]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

I would like to know how the overall speed of the M3 gases compares to a Ferrari and how this affects the sound that comes out the tailpipes.

*Mods, please don't delete. I am not being sarcastic and really want to learn more about the speed of gases. Thank you.

that last line is hilarious. If you think out of context that is-ya gross I know.

I searched many times before and never have got a concise reliable answer on all the true factors that go into exhaust sound and why/how. Speed/amount of exhaust gases are definetly a factor. Firing order and how those gases are released. Tubing and mufflers etc is a huge thing obviously. Then obviously as people mentioned the crank and engine internals, however ultimately the common final path is expulsion of exhaust gas which is creating the sound so theoretically it should not matter too much if you have enough velocity and enough quanitity of gas, with the right "system" should be able to tune it-however in reality this is probably not true.

I think its an interesting topic.