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04-17-2008, 03:02 AM | #23 |
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Can some of your guys add all the performance figures for the various Vette models to our nice database here. It would be nice to see all the numbers and variation as well as all of the different models posted. Remember that new stuff goes in blue and you should provide a source and link if possible. I guess we don't need to add late model Z06 results and that compared to the M3 is not much of a performance competition.
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04-17-2008, 07:22 PM | #24 | |
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04-17-2008, 07:59 PM | #25 | ||
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But, 75 mph? At that speed, the M3 probably needs about 40 hp to cruise, and the Vette, maybe 45? Everything you're making over that is available for acceleration. Gearing? I don't get it. How does gearing affect all this in the slightest? I get that, at 75 mph, the M3 is at around 6000 rpm in third, making around 320 hp. The Vette is at around 4700, making around 350 hp. How does gearing trump hp? Bruce |
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04-17-2008, 11:31 PM | #26 | |
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10. BMW M3 Sedan (E90) 1:38.7 ´07 420 / 1680 Autozeitung 11. Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder 1:39.0 ´06 520 / 1720 Autozeitung 12. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 1:39.4 ´05 513 / 1420 Autozeitung
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04-18-2008, 12:17 AM | #27 | |
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On the gearing point if you convert hp tp torque and multiply by the gear ratios you will find that at that speed the M3 is putting down about 10% more torque to the wheels which determined instantaneous acceleration. |
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04-18-2008, 03:50 AM | #28 | |||
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Gearing does not trump hp in any way, but it affects how torque is distributed in rev range, something that is important during long pulls on highway. |
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04-18-2008, 08:34 AM | #29 | ||
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Assuming the M3 is making about 285 lb/ft of torque at 6000 rpm (at 75 mph), let's see, 285, times the third gear ratio of 1.58, times the 3.85 final drive ratio gives me 1734 pound feet at the rear wheels. OK, the Vette makes 400 pound feet at 4800 rpm, so I'll be conservative and say 390 pound feet at 4700 (at 75 mph), times the third gear ratio of 1.43, times the final drive ratio of 3.42 gives me 1907 pound feet at the wheels. So the Vette has around another ten percent of thrust available, but shorten that up by about two percent because the M3 has shorter sneakers. In my opinion, torque at the drive wheels is merely a reasonable hint at acceleration ability. Other factors such as wind resistance, overall internal friction, rolling resistance and rotating inertia are all in the M3's favor. As I said though, from 75 mph advantage C5 Z06 Vette. At higher speeds, the M3's closer gear spacing and better aerodynamics give it the advantage. Bruce PS - Swamp, I know you know this, but I'll remind you again. Once you get power figures, you don't have to bother with torque at the drive wheels. Horsepower is the great short cut in this context. |
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04-18-2008, 09:33 AM | #30 | |||
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04-18-2008, 11:58 AM | #31 |
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I agree with these numbers I totally botched mine using 1st gear and final drive instead of 3rd gear and final drive, ugh....
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04-18-2008, 01:11 PM | #32 | |
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04-18-2008, 04:22 PM | #34 | |
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In this case, I'd bet on the Vette, drivers be damned. There's one shift involved, a straight back pull from third to fourth, so it's going to take a really bad driver against, say, powershifting Malter to change the outcome. From 100 in fourth? Hmm. Maybe I put my money on the Powerkraut. Against a Z51 C6? I'd bet on the Bow Tie Brigade, except in a very short race. The M3 will have better traction and more effective gearing while both cars make their way up into the meat of the power. Bruce |
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04-18-2008, 07:34 PM | #35 |
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lots of variables - even from car to car - you could get avette with a weak motor and anM3 with a ringer.
RandT tested both and using a professional driver the M3 was faster. with the M differential I would bet on the M3. from what I hear the Vette is hard to get traction off the line. enough with all the science guys - dont you know by now that BMW magic M cars always outperform what the formulas say they should?
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04-18-2008, 11:38 PM | #37 |
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2001 was the only year with 385 i think
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04-19-2008, 12:29 AM | #38 | |
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That R & T test was very interesting. They're the one major magazine I know of that still doesn't bother to adjust their observed figures to standard day conditions. Their standard test venue is in Southern California, which typically doesn't have weather extremes, but in this case, they tested the M3 in Germany, at 57 degrees, and the Vette in the U.S. at about 90 degrees. Result? M3 gets best ever results, and the 436 HP Vette goes just about as quick as the previous LS2 400 hp model. They said that the Vette would likely do a little better than the previous model on a cooler day. Gee, ya think? Bruce |
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04-19-2008, 12:35 AM | #39 | |
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04-19-2008, 02:22 AM | #40 |
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Says the not so educated and far distantly located New Englander. Ugh. 90 is common in the summer anywhere more than 5 miles off the coast (due to the very micro climate phenomena you mentioned). It was above 90 here all around San Diego last weekend and it ain't even really summer yet. Further of the coast in the 20+ mile range 90 is the norm in the summer.
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04-19-2008, 11:55 AM | #41 | |
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04-19-2008, 01:34 PM | #42 | |
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Meanwhile, I hadn't realized that there was a Vette in a later comparision test, where, near as I can tell, the temperature was at only 81 degrees, with 41% humidity. (These are about the norm for their test venue.) Sure enough, the car was quicker than in the earlier, hotter test, just as they predicted. Still, it was a tenth off the benchmark M3 time (12.6 vs 12.5), although mph was up a skoche, at 115.7 vs 114.8 for the bimmer. Weather correction would show the Vette picking up a fat tenth and another mph, meaning that except for trap speed, they're right on top of one another. My net of all this anal analysis is that from a dig, the M3 is a better performer than the Vette, and the Vette's better power to weight has to overcome the deficit before catching up and passing by - in this case, somewhere past the quarter mile. All in all, I think the new M3 is a bit of an overacheiver in the acceleration department. It can make full use of the power right from rest, and the close gear spacing up top means, as with most Euro cars, it'll run hard when the speedo gets well over on the right hand side of the dial. I'm still pondering lucid's problem, though. Pretty much all concerned (road testers, users) have said that the car runs really hard when you boot it, but tends to fall a little short of expectations just driving around - thus the interminable M3 vs 335 posts, wherein Swamp and I have traded pleasantries in at least one of those strings. There ought to be a quick fix, but I need to check something. Bruce |
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04-19-2008, 04:47 PM | #44 | |
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