Engine tunes recommendation?

[Rekrul]

I was a little hesitant about getting a tune, but I am certain I will now in the next month. Now all I have to do is sell my Delete R. Fairly certain I will be going with Evolve as well. Though being objective here, there are many ESS supercharged m3s on the road with no problems whatsoever... so their tuning has to be solid.

[sales@ESSTuning]

We would be more than happy to attend and participate in a properly conducted tuner shootout with any of our supercharger or software products.

[crabman]

Originally Posted by Moxie

name calling/unprofessionalism doesn't sell the product....just makes you look like an ass.

Yep, nothing turns me off to a product more than its representatives name calling, bashing others, etc.

[Darkboyz68]

Thanks for your comparison, all else being equal, for me it comes down to price and exceptional customer service. The ability to move the tune to another vehicle is a big plus too.

Originally Posted by Moxie

Not a fan boy, Just the facts as i know them - Results should be close enough. I haven't seen ESS have a "Sale" since the initial introduction of the remote tune. Evolve has sales regularly. I picked mine up at the Black Friday sale for hundreds less than ESS. Timing is everything - Last I checked ESS charges extra for the Akra Evo tune - Evolve doesn't.

Evolve was first to come out with the remote tune...couple months later ESS showed up with one. Evolve was first to have code reading/clearing capability...several month later I'm told ESS now can do it. Evolve gives second car discounts, constantly adding options, is less expensive than ESS & while I can't speak for ESS's customer service, I can vouch for Sal, Paul & Evolve to be top tier. In the end, go with whoever you feel most comfortable with....or stay stock.

Close thread.

[Darkboyz68]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

We would be more than happy to attend and participate in a properly conducted tuner shootout with any of our supercharger or software products.

Here you go Gene, 1 tuner closer to seeing a tuner shootout! It takes more than one tho...

Originally Posted by geneatals

would love to see a tuner shootout at this upcoming mfest...let's be done with the internet banter and let all these companies just put up or shut up....

[IMG]

Here's what I think is sad. There's a shop with a Dynojet on the grounds at Las Vegas Motor Speedway where all of the MFest events occur. For past two years, one MFest member tried to set up a dyno shootout between the vendors. Only one vendor agreed to do it every time, and one vendor refused every time. This year, he didn't even bother to try to set it up.

It's one thing to dyno in your own shop where you can clear adaptations, run race gas, and change the weather station on the dyno to get higher results, and it's another thing to drive 400 miles on pump gas, no adaptations cleared with 100 people watching and on a dyno you can't control. If all tunes are really the same, then it makes me wonder why some vendors refuse to participate in a fair competition where they can't control the outcome.

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by img

Here's what I think is sad. There's a shop with a Dynojet on the grounds at Las Vegas Motor Speedway where all of the MFest events occur. For past two years, one MFest member tried to set up a dyno shootout between the vendors. Only one vendor agreed to do it every time, and one vendor refused every time. This year, he didn't even bother to try to set it up.

It's one thing to dyno in your own shop where you can clear adaptations, run race gas, and change the weather station on the dyno to get higher results, and it's another thing to drive 400 miles on pump gas, no adaptations cleared with 100 people watching and on a dyno you can't control. If all tunes are really the same, then it makes me wonder why some vendors refuse to participate in a fair competition where they can't control the outcome.

I'll admit, it would definitely be a site to see if this could ever happen.

Same car, same dyno, hopefully same weather conditions. Then monitoring all data logging to assure that the car is at all similar temps and what not.

Finally, all the tuners doing what they do best to show their skill.

Battle of the Titans!!!

[IMG]

Originally Posted by flipm3

I'll admit, it would definitely be a site to see if this could ever happen.

Same car, same dyno, hopefully same weather conditions. Then monitoring all data logging to assure that the car is at all similar temps and what not.

Finally, all the tuners doing what they do best to show their skill.

Battle of the Titans!!!

Would be great ,don't you think ?
All tuners in one place,no drama,no issues.Just a great time !
LMAO @ Battle of the Titans !

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by img

Would be great ,don't you think ?
All tuners in one place,no drama,no issues.Just a great time !
LMAO @ Battle of the Titans !

That would be awesome to see all tunes tested on the same dyno, same day, same weather, etc!

[Darkboyz68]

Originally Posted by flipm3

I'll admit, it would definitely be a site to see if this could ever happen.

Same car, same dyno, hopefully same weather conditions. Then monitoring all data logging to assure that the car is at all similar temps and what not.

Finally, all the tuners doing what they do best to show their skill.

Battle of the Titans!!!

Thats definitely fair! Same car, same dyno, same weather conditions infront of everyone... may the best tune win!!

[1MOREMOD]

couldnt they just use a hot tune that isnt their standard to show bigger gains with less margin of safety? dont think the shoot out would prove much it would still be debated to death afterwards.

[m3an]

Originally Posted by chriszeh

couldnt they just use a hot tune that isnt their standard to show bigger gains with less margin of safety? dont think the shoot out would prove much it would still be debated to death afterwards.

that was my point. It's easy to put the car on kill for the day to get bigger numbers. At the end of the day, people wil choose the tuner/company for their own reasons. Theres a reason why there's many companies making the same product. What really matters to me is reliability/longevity.

[1MOREMOD]

i agree and think evolve has stepped up in a big way. their new SC kit looks pretty sick too.

[Darkboyz68]

Originally Posted by chriszeh

i agree and think evolve has stepped up in a big way. their new SC kit looks pretty sick too.

before we judge it and criticize why dont we give it a chance and see what happens since its never been done before... i think ESS has more to lose if Evolve can show it can hang in a tuner shootout... and yet ESS stepped up welcomed the challenge what does that say about their product?

[geneatals]

Originally Posted by talontid

that was my point. It's easy to put the car on kill for the day to get bigger numbers. At the end of the day, people wil choose the tuner/company for their own reasons. Theres a reason why there's many companies making the same product. What really matters to me is reliability/longevity.

is there a way to compare tunes used on the car on that dyno day to other's flash ("general public, for sale, non kill tunes), say the one's on hand held units that almost all these companies sell now anyway?


but let me guess, that would be proprietary info that the company wouldn't want to risk...so pick an independent shop to read the tunes, and sign a confidentiality contract....

funny, how img mentioned it's the same company that agrees and the same that does not..wonder who those are...

everyone wants to get into a pissing contest but never willing to whip out their cocks...ftl


as stated, do your research and make an informed decision based on your conclusions....it's your money, spend it on what you want, but don't get too caught up in the marketing hype, as it's usually mostly just that...hype

[Sales@Evolve]

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Just because we are merely mentioned with respect to emissions readiness tests and gave an informative post about the functions and maps we are accused of all manner of things by a direct competitor. Let me remind you some of what they are saying:

- We perform illegal upgrades
- We do not do any of our own hardware/software and simply rebrand products
- I am salesman only and have no knowledge.


Now, we are being asked to perform in a tuner shoot out with this company?

Ok, well we will use this opportunity to further educate you all.

It is very easy to turn this very sophisticated adaptive DME into a dumb one.
Simply turn down the knock sensitivity, set the ignition preset for full load to the desired ignition target and it will do what ever you want it to do.
No one would ever know this.
You would need INPA or anything that logs the knock sensors to find out and you have to know what you are looking for.
This type of tune is, as you can imagine, only for a few dyno tests. Run it on the road for extended periods and it will cause serious engine malfunction.

Any half decent tuner can do the above.

So you still want a tuner shoot out? Just for the hell of it? Just so we can all sit there with our popcorn and have some entertainment?

I suggest that people see what exactly that it going on here and don't try and turn this into something it's not.

Our hardware and software is widely used on E46 M3's E9x M3's, E39 M5, E63 M6, E60 M5, BMW 1M, Mini Cooper S / JCW. We have literally hundreds of write ups on various aspects of our work. You don't get this far by simply just sitting there rebranding products and not having a thorough understanding of what you are doing.

What's wrong is wrong and here that is discrediting the competition because they are just that.... the competition.

Any company can do whatever they feel. Go ahead. Discredit us. It won't change a thing. We will continue to develop the best products within our ability and we will release them worldwide.

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Just because we are merely mentioned with respect to emissions readiness tests and gave an informative post about the functions and maps we are accused of all manner of things by a direct competitor. Let me remind you some of what they are saying:

- We perform illegal upgrades
- We do not do any of our own hardware/software and simply rebrand products
- I am salesman only and have no knowledge.


Now, we are being asked to perform in a tuner shoot out with this company?

Ok, well we will use this opportunity to further educate you all.

It is very easy to turn this very sophisticated adaptive DME into a dumb one.
Simply turn down the knock sensitivity, set the ignition preset for full load to the desired ignition target and it will do what ever you want it to do.
No one would ever know this.
You would need INPA or anything that logs the knock sensors to find out and you have to know what you are looking for.
This type of tune is, as you can imagine, only for a few dyno tests. Run it on the road for extended periods and it will cause serious engine malfunction.

Any half decent tuner can do the above.

So you still want a tuner shoot out? Just for the hell of it? Just so we can all sit there with our popcorn and have some entertainment?

I suggest that people see what exactly that it going on here and don't try and turn this into something it's not.

Our hardware and software is widely used on E46 M3's E9x M3's, E39 M5, E63 M6, E60 M5, BMW 1M, Mini Cooper S / JCW. We have literally hundreds of write ups on various aspects of our work. You don't get this far by simply just sitting there rebranding products and not having a thorough understanding of what you are doing.

What's wrong is wrong and here that is discrediting the competition because they are just that.... the competition.

Any company can do whatever they feel. Go ahead. Discredit us. It won't change a thing. We will continue to develop the best products within our ability and we will release them worldwide.

Great information! Evolve continues to share more and more information on how this DME works and explicitly shares how there is potential to skew results. Of course the biggest worry with any "tuner shootout" is really how ethical people will be. Unfortunately, it seems like that is a always going to be something hard for another party to control with utmost certainty.

Like others have said, the feedback regarding respective tuners from clients will always speak for whatever reputation a company holds.

I personally stand by Evolve Automotive because of my own personal experience working with them for both the E46 M3 and E90 M3. Sal, Paul, Rizwan, and Imran have only treated me with incredible respect and friendship. The public and candid professionalism they have here on the forums and industry is marveled by many.

There is no doubt that many tuners these days make great products, including every tuner who has participated or been mentioned in this thread. What I believe is the bigger concern is the image and persona that they take. Like others have mentioned and agreed upon, it's often look down upon by current and potential clients when they see others discrediting others for the sake of competition. I think what is much more appreciated is when there is professionalism and respect carried throughout all avenues of a business.

Nothing wrong with friendly competition obviously, that's what pushes people to better what they provide.

[THE TECH]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

You and I both know your E9X supercharger and your exhaust systems are all made by 3rd party vendors and you simply put your name on it. If you would like we can discuss these vendors who make them for you.

I guess ESS must own Vortech.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Any company can do whatever they feel. Go ahead. Discredit us. It won't change a thing. We will continue to develop the best products within our ability and we will release them worldwide.

thank you sal. this seems to really have gotten out of hand. changed my opinion of ESS also for the worse. if i go SC we will talk.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by chriszeh

couldnt they just use a hot tune that isnt their standard to show bigger gains with less margin of safety? dont think the shoot out would prove much it would still be debated to death afterwards.

if you properly data log each car on the dyno, there is no way to hide a "hot tune" as far as I understand it.

AFR, timing, etc...will tell the story

That said, this will never ever happen.

Ive used evolve and ess tunes myself. Both have great products, but honestly, dealing with Roman from ESS was a pain. Sal was great from Evolve, and AJ from ESS was cool though.

At the end of the day, I wouldnt hesitate to go ESS again because their products were top notch. Im more interested in good products that making best friends with the vendors selling them.

[Rekrul]

LAWLING if Roman gets fired from ESS because of this thread. (SRS)

On a more serious note... ESS has to have good products. So many ESS supercharged cars with no issues.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

if you properly data log each car on the dyno, there is no way to hide a "hot tune" as far as I understand it.

AFR, timing, etc...will tell the story

That said, this will never ever happen.


At the end of the day, I wouldnt hesitate to go ESS again because their products were top notch. Im more interested in good products that making best friends with the vendors selling them.

i agreee the shoot out wont happen. what could they stand to gain. its a situation where the best possible outcome means nothing but they stand to lose ground. its like my friend erhan says you cant win a hpde but you can sure as hell lose.

im also interested in a top notch product but will not seek out certain ones if the buying experince and service is horrible. there are several vendors on this forum i would never use again for this very reason even if the product was up to my standard.