Is forced induction like an athlete on steroids?

[Sedan_Clan]

Fun analogy, but....


....steroid use doesn't automatically produce a thoroughbred. You still have to work very hard to achieve results (..which is essentially the benefit that steroids provide; you recover faster, and you can go harder....longer). But I digress....

Originally Posted by VVG

1. You appear to be interpreting my post in a way that I never intended. That's okay, it happens.

2. All other things being equal (genetic potential, etc.) , the anabolic steroid user will have greater gains with less overall effort than the non-user.

3. Please refrain from making things personal. You have no clue who I am and what I may or may not know. This is light topic for discussion on an internet car forum, after all, not a doctoral thesis.

I agree that he may be taking the fun out of the analogy, but the information in bold is a big misconception. That is probably the reason why he targeted that aspect of your post.



.....Back to the discussion!

[SchnellM3]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Right. Until the next m3 comes out, has 450 hp, runs a 12.0 sec 1/4 mile at 120mph and gets 25mpg highway. Not to mention is a tune away from mid to low 11s.

I think its still too early to make statements as saying "I will not own another M3" and "Here I Come Porsche". Sure they are going down not one but several paths that they said they would never do (Including the name change ), but at the same time I'm not sure that they will let us down. They know what these cars mean to the faithful enthusiasts who have always bought them. I will be keeping my E92 no matter if the next generation blows it away and exceeds expectations or not, its very seldom that you can come across a car that for me at least I never get tired of. I love starring at it and I especially love hearing it come to life and pull through the gears.

Here's to hoping the F8x relieves all of our worries and continues the dominance of the E9x over the competition and we dont get roid rage

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

After the e9x, a lot of people are calling it quits.

Yeah, well many E46 owners "claimed" that they were "calling it quits" too. Many of them are now driving E9X M3's (..praising it in all of its melodious V8 glory.....praising it as the last of the true M3's, just as they did with the outgoing E46)! We have similar discussions EVERY SINGLE TIME a new model is released (..or on the verge of being released). A reasonable person should have a clue by now.

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Right. Until the next m3 comes out, has 450 hp, runs a 12.0 sec 1/4 mile at 120mph and gets 25mpg highway. Not to mention is a tune away from mid to low 11s.

Agreed!

[Totti]

Originally Posted by VVG

1. You appear to be interpreting my post in a way that I never intended. That's okay, it happens.

2. All other things being equal (genetic potential, etc.) , the anabolic steroid user will have greater gains with less overall effort than the non-user.

3. Please refrain from making things personal. You have no clue who I am and what I may or may not know. This is light topic for discussion on an internet car forum, after all, not a doctoral thesis.

[positiveions]

[QUOTE=Doctor J;10603380
Forced induction is more like enlarging your digestive system so you can eat 60 hotdogs, taking extra digestive enzymes to help convert the hotdogs to ATP (energy) and having an extra large poop chute to crap out all the waste[/QUOTE]

Wrong
FI is like adding a O2 tank at 6 Liter, with a constant flow, and running with it. Guaranteed not run out of O2; hence "FI".
What you have just described is an internal state of an Engine.

[eamon]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

I think it's the perfect analogy for the S65. That engine was NEVER designed for boost. Boost significantly decreases engine longevity, just like steroids do to life. There'll never be concrete proof (on either case) some folks look for, but the sheer number of failed boosted engines so far is more than enough to prove that point . Heck, these engines seem to be marginal (main bearings mostly) even without boost . Good day gang.

My thoughts exactly. Boost or even supercharging put strain on the engine. It can't be that easy or else every manufacturer would have super quick cars coming off the assembly line. To me, reliability is a little more important than a 50hp bump. That's why I'm laying off on upping my boost, but I would be very interested to see how reliable these cars are. Coming from the manufacturer it must be pretty good, not like aftermarket options right?

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Fun analogy, but....


....steroid use doesn't automatically produce a thoroughbred. You still have to work very hard to achieve results (..which is essentially the benefit that steroids provides; you recover faster, and you can go harder....longer). But I digress....







I agree that he may be taking the fun out of the analogy, but the information in bold is a big misconception. That is probably the reason why he targeted that aspect of your post.



.....Back to the discussion!

Okay...I didn't mean to imply that anabolic steroids will produce results with no effort. Nor did I mean to imply that FI motors require no engineering expertise.

However, to increase your bench press from 250 to 300lbs is much easier with the help of anabolic steroids. To take (for example) a 414hp 4 liter V8, and have it produce 480hp would be easier with forced induction than with by NA re-engineering.

I have a greater admiration for the athlete that does it without steroids just as I have a greater admiration for the NA motor design.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by eamon

My thoughts exactly. Boost or even supercharging put strain on the engine. It can't be that easy or else every manufacturer would have super quick cars coming off the assembly line. To me, reliability is a little more important than a 50hp bump. That's why I'm laying off on upping my boost, but I would be very interested to see how reliable these cars are. Coming from the manufacturer it must be pretty good, not like aftermarket options right?

Boost on a fairly low compression motor isn't any more damaging than a high compression naturally aspirated motor. The AMOUNT of boost is the variable that will greatly affect reliability. There are plenty of turbocharged motors that are just as reliable as an NA motor; my aunt's turbocharged Chrysler LeBaron is one example. The problem that enthusiasts run into when dealing with boost is the ease in which it can make power (..Get bored? Up the boost! Bored again?.....up the boost......ad infinitum, until it goes POP!).

[eamon]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Boost on a fairly low compression motor isn't any more damaging than a high compression naturally aspirated motor. The AMOUNT of boost is the variable that will greatly affect reliability. There are plenty of turbocharged motors that are just as reliable as an NA motor; my aunt's turbocharged Chrysler LeBaron is one example. The problem that enthusiasts run into when dealing with boost is the ease in which it can make power (..Get bored? Up the boost! Bored again?.....up the boost......ad infinitum, until it goes POP!).

I'll be honest, I don't know anything about the specifics of engines such as "compression" ratios, but aren't the current 335i boost levels already higher than most cars including the Chrysler that you mentioned? Like you said amount of boost is what greatly affects reliability, and stock you're pushing 8.5

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by eamon

I'll be honest, I don't know anything about the specifics of engines such as "compression" ratios, but aren't the current 335i boost levels already higher than most cars including the Chrysler that you mentioned? Like you said amount of boost is what greatly affects reliability, and stock you're pushing 8.5

I believe that the 335i's compression ratio is 10.5:1 and the boost is 8.5 (..boosted BMW owners chime in here); the Chrysler is boosting 7 lbs. I believe, but with a much lower compression ratio. Left in stock form - and barring no HPFP issues - the BMW motor will likely last a very long time.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by eamon

I'll be honest, I don't know anything about the specifics of engines such as "compression" ratios, but aren't the current 335i boost levels already higher than most cars including the Chrysler that you mentioned? Like you said amount of boost is what greatly affects reliability, and stock you're pushing 8.5

You can't simply say high boost = lower engine life. The materials and built quality are also a major contributor.

[clar]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

After the e9x, a lot of people are calling it quits.

And a lot of new customers will be taking over from the quitters. It's a natural order...

[clar]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Yeah, well many E46 owners "claimed" that they were "calling it quits" too. Many of them are now driving E9X M3's (..praising it in all of its melodious V8 glory.....praising it as the last of the true M3's, just as they did with the outgoing E46)! We have similar discussions EVERY SINGLE TIME a new model is released (..or on the verge of being released). A reasonable person should have a clue by now.




Agreed!

Exactly! I can never understand these so called "purists." It's almost as if they feel a part of them has been betrayed. They are taking these things a little too personal and not accepting progress. Anyway, i have very little doubt that these people will think otherwise when the new M3 kicks dirt in their face while they rev the crap out of their NA M3 or whatever they decided to "upgrade" to but still not getting anywhere in a hurry. My experience with the N54 135i tells me that a well M-engineered FI engine, will definitely be an outstanding engine. My 135i received the Performance Power Kit upgrade and it was only lacking high rev pull and sound. I did not experience any fuel pump issue in the 2 years of ownership. I never found it lacking in throttle response one bit. The new M5 pulls to 7000rpm and from what i have read, sounds pretty good too.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by clar

Exactly! I can never understand these so called "purists." It's almost as if they feel a part of them has been betrayed. They are taking these things a little too personal and not accepting progress. Anyway, i have very little doubt that these people will think otherwise when the new M3 kicks dirt in their face while they rev the crap out of their NA M3 or whatever they decided to "upgrade" to but still not getting anywhere in a hurry. My experience with the N54 135i tells me that a well M-engineered FI engine, will definitely be an outstanding engine. My 135i received the Performance Power Kit upgrade and it was only lacking high rev pull and sound. I did not experience any fuel pump issue in the 2 years of ownership. I never found it lacking in throttle response one bit. The new M5 pulls to 7000rpm and from what i have read, sounds pretty good too.

Take a look at the Autocar video. The M5 sounds great! Awesome! Fantastic! (..or any other superlative that you prefer)

....much better than the C63 posted in the videos in the other thread.

[1MOREMOD]

intersting discussion.

[Yay-Z]

Embrace the future people. Technology isn't always bad

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Yay-Z

Embrace the future people. Technology isn't always bad

no it isnt, but some of us, read me, are scared about the end of fun in transportation so we can save the environment. something also needed. its a difficult issue.

[clar]

Originally Posted by chriszeh

no it isnt, but some of us, read me, are scared about the end of fun in transportation so we can save the environment. something also needed. its a difficult issue.

Going FI isn't strictly a case of environmental concern. High revving engines consume way too much fuel to be practical. I coudn't care less about carbon emission. What i can't stand however, is frequent trips to the pump. It's annoying and a waste of time. At this rate of gas price increase, very soon the wallet will start to hurt.

[tjsabec]

Originally Posted by clar

Going FI isn't strictly a case of environmental concern. High revving engines consume way too much fuel to be practical. I coudn't care less about carbon emission. What i can't stand however, is frequent trips to the pump. It's annoying and a waste of time. At this rate of gas price increase, very soon the wallet will start to hurt.

This is caused by the fact that we prohibit ourselves from utilizing our own oil reserves allowing the middle east to dictate the price of one of the worlds most precious resources.

I find the push towards electric transportation in the name of the environment humerus considering over half the world's energy supply comes from burning coal. At least the US control's the majority of the world's coal reserves.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by clar

And a lot of new customers will be taking over from the quitters. It's a natural order...

True dat. Just like there's a whole category of enthusiasts who only buy N/A cars (or at least, heavily favor them, anyway), there is a group who will only consider cars with FI (often because of the cheap mod potential).

[CBS]

Originally Posted by SchnellM3

A turbo, exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, with a supercharger, air goes in,witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Amazing Witchcraft Happens!

And by the way, the VT-1 has very linear power delivery. I still have excellent throttle modulation on the track.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by VVG

...To take (for example) a 414hp 4 liter V8, and have it produce 480hp would be easier with forced induction than with by NA re-engineering.

I have a greater admiration for the athlete that does it without steroids just as I have a greater admiration for the NA motor design.

You're of course free to admire/dislike whatever you like, but in the case you've stated, you are incorrect. At a guess, the current M3 engine could easily be modified to 480 HP via exhaust with shorter runners that favor high rpm power, larger exhaust plumbing from headers back, plus cam changes.

Would it be a better engine? Hell no. It would demonstrably be pretty poor for the street. But still, 480 HP.

By contrast, boosting to that power level via forced induction would involve new pistons and rods, revised valve materials, obviously new intake and exhaust, plus cams for reduced overlap. Not to mention intercooler plumbing.

Of course, it would make torque everywhere, and be a joyful drive compared to the nervous 480 HP NA version.