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      11-10-2017, 07:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Not necessarily. Contrary to popular belief...in a lot of cases Shell gasoline is not even refined by Shell. The only thing that makes it Shell gas is the additive package. So you might be getting "cheap" Valero gas with Shell additive being sold at Shell gas stations. The Shell gas in Wisconsin ain't made by Shell. The inverse is true...you might get Valero gas refined by Shell.

But generally speaking, I would think that Shell has some pretty good quality controls. So yes, sometimes. That help?
If there is a Shell nearby with reasonable gas prices I would go for that, if not any big name gas station is usually OK. It's the really small and independent one that I don't really trust


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Originally Posted by GMCHEM83 View Post
I recently found a local petroleum distributor in Columbus, TX that sells ethanol-free "93 Super". He supplies to industrial operations and has become the fuel house for car enthusiasts who stop by frequently. At just $2.85 a gallon I will be filling up there for a few tanks back to back and see how the mileage compares to Shell V Power.

I can't really say if this fuel makes the car feel stronger but it does feel a little "punchier" when you accelerate...could just be the recent cool and dry air from the cold front.

Will report back....

GM
Could you PM me some details about this place? I live in west Houston and would love to go take a look next time I'm going to Austin. BTW the new Bucee's in Katy area also have ethanol-free, premium gas, but it was $3.2x per gallon last time I was there.


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Originally Posted by M.Hagen View Post
Ethanol does have less energy density than regular gasoline. That is why there is a fuel economy penalty for running E85, as ~30% more volume per combustion event is required to get the same 'energy' as gasoline. However, 'energy density' =/= 'power potential'

Agreed on the principal that we should not tie-up AG lands for fuel needs. There are a few good alternatives to corn though. Algae can produce both diesel and sugar based fuels (like Ethanol), and has the potential to due it at a higher Barrel-Per-Acre output than corn. The conditions where Algae can flourish are sunny and arid climates, so an Algae fuel farm would not compete for the same land as AG.

Algae seems to be the way to go in the long run, I remember reading about it being a very high output energy crop and like you said, does not compete with AG lands.

I think there were some govt subsidies/incentives for using corn for biofuel, which caused some farms to switch the kind of corns they grow and caused some controversies (only some are suitable for human food, then there is the animal feed ones, and the ones that are only good for bio-fuel), it was too long ago and I couldn't remember the details
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      11-10-2017, 07:59 PM   #24
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I have no problem whatsoever running Shell 93 10% ethanol in my M3, but I do run ethanol-free gas from a place down the road in a couple of old cars and all of my outdoor power equipment.
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      11-10-2017, 08:15 PM   #25
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I don't really care. I'd rather burn 100% E85 though, since there is no E100 (or E99) available in the US, at least not on pumps.
Ethanol is a much better fuel power wise, but you spend more money to make that power. It also is a much cleaner fuel. It is extremely corrosive, but this is easy to fix. In reality, most cars shouldn't experience corrosion problems with the fuel system other than perhaps the fuel pump itself.
I've been debating whether or not I should go with the Advanced Dynamics Flex system. I just can't justify the $1200 expense on it.
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      11-11-2017, 12:30 AM   #26
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so I shouldn't be putting in 94 Octane with no ethanol from Chevron
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      11-11-2017, 01:10 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Well, this is kind of one of those hotly debated topics with extremely biased sides and lobbyists on both sides and somewhat bipartisan support for increasing ethanol production to support crop farmers and ag companies like Archer Daniels Midland.

If you google you will find a plethora of articles citing that ethanol is a net pollutant. It costs more energy to convert to usable energy than the liquid ethanol can produce in a combustion engine. Adding ethanol supposedly decreases MPG because it's such a sh*tty form of fuel (much like corn is a nutritionally useless food and even worse as a substitute for sugar). So you're polluting more, artificially increasing the price of food, subsidized not only by the govt/taxpayer but also the end food consumer, you, in order to support our ag industry to keep pumping out corn.

They are currently dumping some 6b+ gallons into our fuel annually and in less than ten years trying to bump that to over 35b gallons

It's also to reduce our dependency on foreign sources of oil. Hopefully the fracking boom and these massive shale discoveries will continue to push this country up the map on being a net oil exporter.

I'm not a crazy conspiracy theorist or anything but if there's anything I hate, it's unions and corn subsidies. Give me 93 octane, hold the liquified corn on the cob bro.
BP is 93 octane in my AO. That's what I use in my M3, tuned Mini and S2000.

Re: Energy independence. We are the Saudi Arabia of coal. We could be energy independent anytime there was a national will to be so.

Coal makes good synthetic fuel. By the end of World War II, the Nazis were using it to fuel their entire war machine. There was an oil embargo on South Africa in the 70's due to apartheid. This forced the country into coal gasification. To this day they are using underground coal gasification to produce electricity.
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      11-13-2017, 10:08 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KawBoy View Post
I don't really care. I'd rather burn 100% E85 though, since there is no E100 (or E99) available in the US, at least not on pumps.
Ethanol is a much better fuel power wise, but you spend more money to make that power. It also is a much cleaner fuel. It is extremely corrosive, but this is easy to fix. In reality, most cars shouldn't experience corrosion problems with the fuel system other than perhaps the fuel pump itself.
I've been debating whether or not I should go with the Advanced Dynamics Flex system. I just can't justify the $1200 expense on it.
Ethanol is a much better fuel power wise? You do realize that ehtanol is far less energy dense than gasoline, which contradicts the statement you are making. What ethanol does accomplish is to help raise the octane level of the fuel (because it is harder to start combustion). But this is only a benefit if you cannot secure normal premium gasoline with an octane rating of 91 to 93 without going to an E85 blend, something that just isn't the case for most of us.
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      11-13-2017, 11:26 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSilk View Post
Ethanol is a much better fuel power wise? You do realize that ehtanol is far less energy dense than gasoline, which contradicts the statement you are making. What ethanol does accomplish is to help raise the octane level of the fuel (because it is harder to start combustion). But this is only a benefit if you cannot secure normal premium gasoline with an octane rating of 91 to 93 without going to an E85 blend, something that just isn't the case for most of us.
I see what you are saying, but there is a little more to making power with ethanol blends than just octane.

As you stated, ethanol blends will have less energy density compared to refined gasoline. This means you need more injected volume of an ethanol blend to create an equivalent gasoline burn. That is why there is a very noticeable fuel economy penalty to running an ethanol blend.

Octane is a major part of why there is more power potential in E85. The equivalent AKI is somewhere around 100-107 depending on winter/summer blend. If we focus just on the M3's S65/MSS60 DME, the optimum AKI is around 93-94 (equivalent to 98RON in Germany), so there is still a bulk of the country who is likely seeing ignition retard even when filling with premium gasoline (ie 91 octane in AZ/CA). If you combine E85 with a more aggressive tune, there is even more power potential above standard premium gasoline, and you can fuel from a pump at a reasonable per-gallon price.

This is all in-line with what you said. Just explained for context.

The other 'power-adder' aspect to ethanol blended fuels is the Latent-Heat reaction when the fuel changes phase from liquid to gaseous (port wetting/evaporation, pre-combustion mixing, etc). True E85 has about 300% more Latent-Heat of Evaporation, which has a significant cooling effect on both the mechanical components in the fuel path and the charge air. The charge air can be measured in principal; with a Delta-T of around 54 degrees F for pure gasoline, and a Delta-T of around 170 degrees F. That reduction in charge-air temperature is good for 5-8% power on its own, without any changes to ignition or combustion cycle.

I would be cautious to confuse the subject of "energy density" with "power"; as you can argue to semantics of the chemistry terms people often use to make a point. But the bottom line is, ethanol blended fuels will make more power all-else-equal (Latent Heat) and have the potential to make a lot more power (higher AKI), when compared to standard gasoline.
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      11-13-2017, 11:32 AM   #30
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why does my butt dyno feel more power on ethanol free 93?
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      11-13-2017, 11:57 AM   #31
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My car feels like it runs and rides better after I wash it.
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      11-13-2017, 12:00 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3dliner View Post
why does my butt dyno feel more power on ethanol free 93?
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      11-13-2017, 01:38 PM   #33
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The following is from High Octane Racing (proponents of E85):

E85 on average produces around 25 Mega Joules of Energy per litre of fuel, while normal 98 Octane petrol will normally produce in excess of 33 Mega Joules of Energy per litre so for this reason alone we will always use much more E85 fuel to achieve the same result.

Because of the requirement for much higher fuel consumption it is normal practice to replace the whole fuel system in a performance application with much higher flowing components. If you required 600cc injectors and a 250litre per hour fuel pump with petrol, then it is fair to assume you will need at least 1000cc injectors and closer to 450 litre per hour fuel pump, but normally it is safer to go even bigger because as discussed earlier, you can now run even higher boost which in turn will require more fuel again. We highly recommend the Injector Dynamics brand of injector that come as a matched set.

The long and the short of it is that it is possible to extract more power from E85 than from plain petrol, but it isn't as simple as just filling your tank with E85.
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      11-13-2017, 02:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSilk View Post
Ethanol is a much better fuel power wise? You do realize that ehtanol is far less energy dense than gasoline, which contradicts the statement you are making. What ethanol does accomplish is to help raise the octane level of the fuel (because it is harder to start combustion). But this is only a benefit if you cannot secure normal premium gasoline with an octane rating of 91 to 93 without going to an E85 blend, something that just isn't the case for most of us.
Yes, it is. Even though it makes about 30% less power than gasoline by volume, it makes more power per pound of air. It also is oxygenated. Due to it's high octane level, one can use a lot of CR and timing.
For the same reasons methanol makes more power than ethanol and gasoline.
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      11-13-2017, 02:30 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3dliner View Post
why does my butt dyno feel more power on ethanol free 93?
I am not sure about your butt dyno, but any engine properly tuned for E85 will make more power than it's gasoline counterpart.
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      11-13-2017, 02:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KawBoy View Post
I am not sure about your butt dyno, but any engine properly tuned for E85 will make more power than it's gasoline counterpart.
I was comparing 93 with 10% ethanol and without on a stock tune. 93 w/o ethanol seems to pull harder.
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      11-13-2017, 02:32 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by R3dliner View Post
I was comparing 93 with 10% ethanol and without on a stock tune.
Than you butt dyno needs to be recalibrated.
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      11-13-2017, 02:36 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KawBoy View Post
Than you butt dyno needs to be recalibrated.
why don't you try it out before making assumption or with data to back up your claims.
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      11-13-2017, 02:45 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by R3dliner View Post
why don't you try it out before making assumption or with data to back up your claims.
I may have misunderstood you then. I thought you said that your butt dyno tells you that E85 was better than Gasoline. Than yes, it is.
Now, if your butt dyno tells you that you make more power going from gas to 10% alky, than no, your dyno is no good. The difference in power in this case is pretty irrelevant.

As far as show you any data to back up my claims, I am not claiming anything. I am just telling you what I know. But I can offer you a very simple whitepaper.

http://www.pballandmore.com/Download...ce_Engines.pdf
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      11-13-2017, 02:51 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Probably. Only the detergents and additives differentiate the gas at all the gas stations anyway. Do I still only go to Shell? Yes.

Ethanol sucks though. Less power and bad for your engine. Stupid corn subsidies.

I run 60% ethanol on a 98octane tune with proflex commander and put a bus length on the same car without it.

Last edited by opihi5; 11-13-2017 at 03:04 PM.
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      11-13-2017, 03:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSilk View Post
The following is from High Octane Racing (proponents of E85):

E85 on average produces around 25 Mega Joules of Energy per litre of fuel, while normal 98 Octane petrol will normally produce in excess of 33 Mega Joules of Energy per litre so for this reason alone we will always use much more E85 fuel to achieve the same result.

Because of the requirement for much higher fuel consumption it is normal practice to replace the whole fuel system in a performance application with much higher flowing components. If you required 600cc injectors and a 250litre per hour fuel pump with petrol, then it is fair to assume you will need at least 1000cc injectors and closer to 450 litre per hour fuel pump, but normally it is safer to go even bigger because as discussed earlier, you can now run even higher boost which in turn will require more fuel again. We highly recommend the Injector Dynamics brand of injector that come as a matched set.

The long and the short of it is that it is possible to extract more power from E85 than from plain petrol, but it isn't as simple as just filling your tank with E85.
THIS
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      12-14-2017, 02:45 PM   #42
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I can certainly say I enjoy using the pure 93 super from the local vendor in Columbus, but I am very glad I got spared this technical lie:

http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/...-sold-in-texas

Bucee's in Houston/Katy has been slipping as much as 12.5% isobutanol into it's "ethanol-free" gas, and charging $3.50+ per gallon. I hate it when this type of deception occurs...2 more carbon atoms to the ethanol molecular chain and they can legally sell it as having no ethanol.

GM
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      12-14-2017, 04:19 PM   #43
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I use 93 octane E10 without worries. I drive my car daily and buy fuel weekly from a high volume station. As I understand the main problem with Ethanol is that it will absorb moisture over time and that becomes problematic. I use ethanol free fuel in my lawn equipment and things that fuel might sit in for a few weeks. If my M3 were a weekend/fair weather car, or if I were putting it away for winter storage I'd probably avoid E10 for the last few tanks. I've not seen or heard of many M3s with fuel system issues so it might not make a bit of difference in the long run.
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      12-14-2017, 04:20 PM   #44
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I would be more concerned with getting the proper detergents and cleaning agents in the gas than corn juice.
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