is the next genration M3 giong back to Inline 6? twin tubo?

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by Big Windy

it is way too early to tell. i would guess that they will stick with the V8 for one more iteration...

I was thinking that BMW AG could use the V8 for next M5 and go back to a 6 w/ some form of boost in the next gen. Or if they stay w/ the V8 for the next M3 that they make it more efficient w/ DI.

[Pitkis]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Absolutely agree. However, no one is disputing there is a turbo-charged V8 5 series on the way. That's 100% guaranteed. It is the F10 550i. The question is, will the M5 also be a turbo V8? Right now, if I had to bet on it, I'd be forced to put my money on a "no" for the turbo V8 in the F10 M5. Maybe I'd be wrong, but at this point I just don't feel like there's enough info to call it the most likely scenario to play out.

550i will be quite a machine. I don't have straight connections to BMW, so no confirmation available regarding M5. But as far as we know, 550i is getting about the same engine as X6 i50 with around 400 hp and no major racing-technology. So, replacing turbos, making some M-adjustment and tuning the power might well exceed 500 hp?

I have an impression that it's easier to make cleaner engines from smaller volume block that trying to work with big engines with lower ratings. Someone more engineering-oriented can confirm is this is true or not...

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Pitkis

Well...you think the location of the number plate is a kind of information BMW execs and division managers are informing Car? Big boys talk about big things and Car is a key player in automotive media field whatever we say. Of course mistakes happen. But, what comes to general info regarding news, they are usually quite reliable - probably more reliable than any other publication.

My approach is different. If they can't get the simple things right why should I believe them regarding the important ones?

Besides my special love for CAR it's indeed likely that the new M5 will have a V8 TT. On the other hand the CAR spy pictures most likely only show one M5, that's the E60 used as reference.


Best regards, south

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by southlight

My approach is different. If they can't get the simple things right why should I believe them when it's about the important ones?

Besides my special love for CAR it's indeed likely that the new M5 will have a V8 TT. On the other hand the pictures shown by CAR most likely only show one M5, that's the E60 used as reference.


Best regards, south

+1 South!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Pitkis

550i will be quite a machine. I don't have straight connections to BMW, so no confirmation available regarding M5. But as far as we know, 550i is getting about the same engine as X6 i50 with around 400 hp and no major racing-technology. So, replacing turbos, making some M-adjustment and tuning the power might well exceed 500 hp?

No doubt they can tune the motor to 500hp+. In fact rumors suggest that the X5 and X6 xDrive50is will make close to that.

But that' still not an M motor, even it make 800 or 1000hp. If you put the N64 in an M, without serious rework, there will be a rebellion. That's what I think, anyway. No wants that low revving thing in an M. Maybe you use turbo'd S65 instead but as I said, that's not automatically going to be better than a turbo'd S85.

I have an impression that it's easier to make cleaner engines from smaller volume block that trying to work with big engines with lower ratings. Someone more engineering-oriented can confirm is this is true or not...

Ask GM, they have a 6.2L V8 with cylinder deactivation that is nearly as efficient as their 3.6L V6 (the one without DI). And it makes like 150hp more.

[epiphone3]

Here is a bit of a different angle... I think BMW will maintain Naturally Aspirated motors for one more run of at least M5, if not M3 also.

I think BMW will just switch the current M engine to using HPI (High Precision Injection, otherwise known as Direct Injection). This alone without changing any other part of the engine should allow for 10% bump in power. In the case of the M5, that gets you to 550 - 560 hp, Naturally Aspirated. This would also be done with about 10% less fuel consumption and reduced emissions.

Bumping compression up to take advantage of the HPI should get us to the 560 - 575 hp range with improved thermal efficiency (less emissions and fuel consumption) and more torque.

There would then be a focus on reducing the weight of the engines significanly... espcially the rotating parts. This would also improve power to weight ratio and fuel consumption. Weight savings measures should get us in the 575 - 580 hp range, naturally aspriated with even less fuel consumption.

This would be enough, in my opinion.

The lions share of development would probably then be spent on reducing weight. I have heard of some advances on the horizon that should reduce the cost of carbon fibre significantly. This should allow for further use of the material at reduced costs. Again, power to weight ratio would improve and emissions per km would improve also.

If you have an M5 that weights in a 200 - 300 lbs less than the current one, but produces another 15 - 17% more power, and consumes about 20% less fuel, you probably have a winner on your hands.

By the time the M3 is coming around, it is not unlikely that turbocharging the M-power cars would be on the brain. I think BMW would like to preserve the naturally aspirated heritage of the model for as long as possible though.

[Hotan Braskey]

I don't know too much about superchargers, but the majority of supercharged engines I have seen have been relatively low-revving. Is this due to restraints caused by supercharging, or just the nature of the original engine (aka Jag, AMG, etc)?

[Pitkis]

Originally Posted by epiphone3

I think BMW will just switch the current M engine to using HPI (High Precision Injection, otherwise known as Direct Injection). This alone without changing any other part of the engine should allow for 10% bump in power. In the case of the M5, that gets you to 550 - 560 hp, Naturally Aspirated. This would also be done with about 10% less fuel consumption and reduced emissions.

The lions share of development would probably then be spent on reducing weight. I have heard of some advances on the horizon that should reduce the cost of carbon fibre significantly. This should allow for further use of the material at reduced costs. Again, power to weight ratio would improve and emissions per km would improve also.

If you have an M5 that weights in a 200 - 300 lbs less than the current one, but produces another 15 - 17% more power, and consumes about 20% less fuel, you probably have a winner on your hands.

I agree, but current V10 emissions are about the same as Brabus Bullit with 730 hp. So, the start level is quite high. I know DI is one option and weight reduction is the most important thing. It has been said from many sources that BMW has selected a way to design lighter sportcars with less hp (and emissions) still targeting faster laptimes and better performance figures. So, it's their way to go. BMW have to get next M5 emit 30-40% less CO2 than current one. I think 15-20% less is not enough for a company that wants to be in the absolute forefront of green car industry while S85 current emission figures are horrible.

South: we do have a bit different approach. Anyway, it's important that there is a personal approach with good explanation

[Socale92]

triple turbo? it's not a bugatti....

[M3 LUST]

Originally Posted by epiphone3

Here is a bit of a different angle... I think BMW will maintain Naturally Aspirated motors for one more run of at least M5, if not M3 also.

I think BMW will just switch the current M engine to using HPI (High Precision Injection, otherwise known as Direct Injection). This alone without changing any other part of the engine should allow for 10% bump in power. In the case of the M5, that gets you to 550 - 560 hp, Naturally Aspirated. This would also be done with about 10% less fuel consumption and reduced emissions.

Bumping compression up to take advantage of the HPI should get us to the 560 - 575 hp range with improved thermal efficiency (less emissions and fuel consumption) and more torque.

There would then be a focus on reducing the weight of the engines significanly... espcially the rotating parts. This would also improve power to weight ratio and fuel consumption. Weight savings measures should get us in the 575 - 580 hp range, naturally aspriated with even less fuel consumption.

This would be enough, in my opinion.

The lions share of development would probably then be spent on reducing weight. I have heard of some advances on the horizon that should reduce the cost of carbon fibre significantly. This should allow for further use of the material at reduced costs. Again, power to weight ratio would improve and emissions per km would improve also.

If you have an M5 that weights in a 200 - 300 lbs less than the current one, but produces another 15 - 17% more power, and consumes about 20% less fuel, you probably have a winner on your hands.

By the time the M3 is coming around, it is not unlikely that turbocharging the M-power cars would be on the brain. I think BMW would like to preserve the naturally aspirated heritage of the model for as long as possible though.

Sounds good to me!

[GnokGnik]

less weight is always a solution...

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Pitkis

South: we do have a bit different approach. Anyway, it's important that there is a personal approach with good explanation

During an AMS interview Willisch (director of BMW M) indicated the forthcoming M models of X5 and X6, which are powered by an enhanced version of the X6's N64 engine. So turbo powered M cars are coming in the near future (by the end of '09 said Willisch). Maybe these models are also used to accustom the fans to the FI future the M division is heading to.


Best regards, south

[RandyB]

I would like to see further NA engine development along with more weight savings for the car. They could add some stroke to the current 4.0 liter V8, maybe increase it to 4.2 liters. They could use titanium connecting rods to keep the reciprocating assembly as close to the weight of the 4.0 liter as possible and also keep the same rpm ceiling despite moving closer to F1 piston speed. Then add HPI and increase the compression to maybe 12.5:1 if possible. Hopefully that would allow the engine to make close to 110hp/liter for a max of 462 hp and torque would be up as well, perhaps in the 330 range. Now take this mill and put it in a new 3-series that has finally stopped growing(!) and has its weight reduced to 3400 lbs. I'm trying to be realistic with all of the power and weight figures, so they are somewhat conservative, especially if they are able to make more parts of the car out of aluminum and CF.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by RandyB

I would like to see further NA engine development along with more weight savings for the car. They could add some stroke to the current 4.0 liter V8, maybe increase it to 4.2 liters. They could use titanium connecting rods to keep the reciprocating assembly as close to the weight of the 4.0 liter as possible and also keep the same rpm ceiling despite moving closer to F1 piston speed. Then add HPI and increase the compression to maybe 12.5:1 if possible. Hopefully that would allow the engine to make close to 110hp/liter for a max of 462 hp and torque would be up as well, perhaps in the 330 range. Now take this mill and put it in a new 3-series that has finally stopped growing(!) and has its weight reduced to 3400 lbs. I'm trying to be realistic with all of the power and weight figures, so they are somewhat conservative, especially if they are able to make more parts of the car out of aluminum and CF.

Wow!! That would be wonderful, but I think you can do this pretty much on your own. Stocker kit will NOT add any weight but will put you above 500bhp easily and still keep it NA. They you can add CF boot lid, door panels, BMW performance seats w/o the sub and as many electronics, BBK (weighs 18 kg less than stock), full exhaust (also saving some weight), light weight wheels, etc… and bring total weight down by at least 100kg’s and your done.