AutoBild M3 GTS vs Carerra 911 GT3-RS 3.8 Story

[karussell]

Originally Posted by marcel b

don't forget that the GTS is not on track tires. There is a big difference in grip between Michelin Cup tires, especially the ones on the GT3, and the Pirelli P Zero Corsa! Put the Michelin Cups on the GTS and it difference to the GT3 (RS) will be even smaller (acceleration, but especially braking and cornering)

really? Corsa's seem to do quite well as its a direct competitor for the PSC's. In fact in colder weather, they heat up much quicker and useable faster along with doing very well in the rain. Also factory N1 spec PSC's on the GT3 and RS have additional siping for better wet-weather performance (they don't work better), but they are slower than the "real" PSC's in the dry.

I would get corsa's over PSC's in heartbeat once they have the size that will fit the RS.

[footie]

Originally Posted by karussell

really? Corsa's seem to do quite well as its a direct competitor for the PSC's. In fact in colder weather, they heat up much quicker and useable faster along with doing very well in the rain. Also factory N1 spec PSC's on the GT3 and RS have additional siping for better wet-weather performance (they don't work better), but they are slower than the "real" PSC's in the dry.

I would get corsa's over PSC's in heartbeat once they have the size that will fit the RS.

+1000,

The original PSCs on the CSL are entirely different to the latest offering. Still a great tyre, only just not as great in the dry as they once were.

[Tallest]

CAR magazine Aug issue i just read, has instead picked the M3 GTS. It's supposedly a better car that doesnt bite your head off and unless you are REALLY good driver (i.e. professional) and not a track guy who likes to drive fast but isn't doing it professionally, M3 is a better car. P-Car is mighty good of course but it's a manual, idiotically bare bones inside and is VERY expensive.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by research

P-Car is mighty good of course but it's a manual, idiotically bare bones inside and is VERY expensive.

i don't want to be a porsche snob, but i must repute comments like this.

the manual transmission in the GT3/RS is a work of art. Its one of the defining examples of porsches evolution over revolution philosophy. short direct shifts with rifle bolt action. clutch is weighted properly and engagement is razor sharp thanks to single mass clutch and the lightened flywheel. Threshold braking is tough to learn but orgasmic when done perfectly. Sadly, the 991 GT3 will probably have an available PDK (porsches version of double clutch) and it will shift quicker, but it really doesn't get better than a traditional manual in a porsche GT car.

When you exclude the 9K euro ceramics on the Porsche the price is pretty close between it and the GTS. if you were able to compare the US price the Porsche would be an outstanding value. this is why BMW can't bring a GTS to US market. They just can't command the premium for it.

The M3 GTS doesn't have A/C and its still a street car. The RS has A/C and a stereo. Bluetooth and external audio adapter is no-cost option. If you were so inclined you can option it up with a full leather dash, deviated stitching, nav, and even cup holders. the carbon fiber bucket seats that come standard in the car are a work of art. not sure why anyone would call it idiotically bare bones. Actually the GT3 can manage to have all this stuff and still stay under 3100 lbs comfortably.

despite having a 6 cylinder and rear engined, the RS is still faster on the ring than the scuderia and the 458. Of course this really means nothing to an amateur such as myself. i can tell you however after driving the last 3 versions of the GT3 and owning the last 2 that the 997.2 RS is the most rewarding and engaging car I have driven. Its a great car to learn in and you learn very early about weight transfer, proper line, and balance. The M3 is a great platform to learn on, but I think its just a little too forgiving.

I think the GTS is a great step forward. Lets hope BMW can bring the costs down, and offer a worldwide version for the next iteration.

[persianbmw91]

now tell us what everyones REALLY interested in how that abarth compare to these dogs? must be the weirdest feeling hoping in that after whipping the rs lol.
pretty interesting take on it. i think id take the rs simply for the tranny. i played with a gt 2s clutch and throw and sitting still it felt better than anything iv ever driven i can only imagine its most recent incarnation.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by persianbmw91

now tell us what everyones REALLY interested in how that abarth compare to these dogs? must be the weirdest feeling hoping in that after whipping the rs lol.
pretty interesting take on it. i think id take the rs simply for the tranny. i played with a gt 2s clutch and throw and sitting still it felt better than anything iv ever driven i can only imagine its most recent incarnation.

LOL OT but jeremey clarkson sums it up best. Its an angry little pet mouse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpAFi9nIJVQ
this is great video of an abarth cup race. this turn is famous for flipping cars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Zbm...eature=related
I seriously want to take it to the ring and throw it around. Its one of those cars with a big heart. The M3 is a brute in a tuxedo which I also love driving every day. RS could be driven daily as its comfortable enough. Its just a little too "look at me" for driving to the clients site.

[devo]

Originally Posted by karussell

i don't want to be a porsche snob, but i must repute comments like this.

the manual transmission in the GT3/RS is a work of art. Its one of the defining examples of porsches evolution over revolution philosophy. short direct shifts with rifle bolt action. clutch is weighted properly and engagement is razor sharp thanks to single mass clutch and the lightened flywheel. Threshold braking is tough to learn but orgasmic when done perfectly. Sadly, the 991 GT3 will probably have an available PDK (porsches version of double clutch) and it will shift quicker, but it really doesn't get better than a traditional manual in a porsche GT car.

When you exclude the 9K euro ceramics on the Porsche the price is pretty close between it and the GTS. if you were able to compare the US price the Porsche would be an outstanding value. this is why BMW can't bring a GTS to US market. They just can't command the premium for it.

The M3 GTS doesn't have A/C and its still a street car. The RS has A/C and a stereo. Bluetooth and external audio adapter is no-cost option. If you were so inclined you can option it up with a full leather dash, deviated stitching, nav, and even cup holders. the carbon fiber bucket seats that come standard in the car are a work of art. not sure why anyone would call it idiotically bare bones. Actually the GT3 can manage to have all this stuff and still stay under 3100 lbs comfortably.

despite having a 6 cylinder and rear engined, the RS is still faster on the ring than the scuderia and the 458. Of course this really means nothing to an amateur such as myself. i can tell you however after driving the last 3 versions of the GT3 and owning the last 2 that the 997.2 RS is the most rewarding and engaging car I have driven. Its a great car to learn in and you learn very early about weight transfer, proper line, and balance. The M3 is a great platform to learn on, but I think its just a little too forgiving.

I think the GTS is a great step forward. Lets hope BMW can bring the costs down, and offer a worldwide version for the next iteration.

Exactly!

[devo]

Originally Posted by karussell

really? Corsa's seem to do quite well as its a direct competitor for the PSC's. In fact in colder weather, they heat up much quicker and useable faster along with doing very well in the rain. Also factory N1 spec PSC's on the GT3 and RS have additional siping for better wet-weather performance (they don't work better), but they are slower than the "real" PSC's in the dry.

I would get corsa's over PSC's in heartbeat once they have the size that will fit the RS.

Again!

As you said, the Corsa system is Pirelli's version of the CUP. Any timed difference would be negligible. I don't understand what Marcel b is talking about. The Corsa is clearly a street/track tire just like the CUP. Porsche flip flops between the Corsa and CUP on the GT3; mine happen to come with Corsas and I love them.

[devo]

Originally Posted by research

CAR magazine Aug issue i just read, has instead picked the M3 GTS. It's supposedly a better car that doesnt bite your head off and unless you are REALLY good driver (i.e. professional) and not a track guy who likes to drive fast but isn't doing it professionally, M3 is a better car. P-Car is mighty good of course but it's a manual, idiotically bare bones inside and is VERY expensive.

Contemporary 911s especially the .2 gt3/RS don't bite your head off with the computer nannies on. And, frankly unless on the track and very good there is no reason to turn them off (aside from premature rear brake rotor/pad wear). There is a decent amount of latitude before they step in. PSM/TC can be turned off individually as well.

Most gt3 owners want a stick (more credit goes to the archaic 911 six speed vs. a contemporary dual clutch in this comparison). The RS like the gt3 is HARDLY bare bones inside. For less than $3.5k in options the car's interior can be made beautiful. And, it's very nice without any options. No worse than a E92 M3.

[devo]

Originally Posted by graider

i think bmw intention is gts vs gt3. i have a feeling the gts will match the gt3 ring time.

the 997.2 rs is a full 10 secs faster than the 997.2 gt3. different league IMO.

MKII RS 7:33

MKII GT3 7:40

Still a different league, but 7 seconds.

[dlbrooks18]

great read, thanks for the post!

[Box Collector]

we'll just have to have both

[Dackelone]

AutoBild has the article up now on their website. There is also a very cool video of the M3 GTS at that circiut in Spain last month where they had the 1M preview. Here is the link for the article on the GTS:


http://www.autobild.de/artikel/bmw-m...h_1227813.html

[methd]

wow.. i'd take the porsche any day, but the M3 did well all things considered.

[graider]

one thing thoug is the gts look pretty good next the gt3 rs.

[2045]

Originally Posted by graider

one thing thoug is the gts look pretty good next the gt3 rs.

really? not saying it looks bad, but the wing on the GTS seems out of place. the proportion just doesn't look right...

[kaykay]

Originally Posted by karussell

i don't want to be a porsche snob, but i must repute comments like this.

the manual transmission in the GT3/RS is a work of art. Its one of the defining examples of porsches evolution over revolution philosophy. short direct shifts with rifle bolt action. clutch is weighted properly and engagement is razor sharp thanks to single mass clutch and the lightened flywheel. Threshold braking is tough to learn but orgasmic when done perfectly. Sadly, the 991 GT3 will probably have an available PDK (porsches version of double clutch) and it will shift quicker, but it really doesn't get better than a traditional manual in a porsche GT car.

When you exclude the 9K euro ceramics on the Porsche the price is pretty close between it and the GTS. if you were able to compare the US price the Porsche would be an outstanding value. this is why BMW can't bring a GTS to US market. They just can't command the premium for it.

The M3 GTS doesn't have A/C and its still a street car. The RS has A/C and a stereo. Bluetooth and external audio adapter is no-cost option. If you were so inclined you can option it up with a full leather dash, deviated stitching, nav, and even cup holders. the carbon fiber bucket seats that come standard in the car are a work of art. not sure why anyone would call it idiotically bare bones. Actually the GT3 can manage to have all this stuff and still stay under 3100 lbs comfortably.

despite having a 6 cylinder and rear engined, the RS is still faster on the ring than the scuderia and the 458. Of course this really means nothing to an amateur such as myself. i can tell you however after driving the last 3 versions of the GT3 and owning the last 2 that the 997.2 RS is the most rewarding and engaging car I have driven. Its a great car to learn in and you learn very early about weight transfer, proper line, and balance. The M3 is a great platform to learn on, but I think its just a little too forgiving.

I think the GTS is a great step forward. Lets hope BMW can bring the costs down, and offer a worldwide version for the next iteration.

Very well put

[karussell]

I think size-wise the current M3 is just a little too big for its own good. I hope the new 1 M coupe would come with a turbo-4 to keep the weight down and that would be a good size, but still I wish BMW just kept the 3 series about the size of the E36.

Notice how in the photos in the article the RS is in the foreground and GTS is in the background? if you put the two cars side by side its amazing how much larger an M3 looks.

here is my sedan next to the RS. don't mind the pet mouse on the side.
M3 GTS should be 7/8th scale to really make it work.

agree, more big wing too would also work well so long as corresponding front splitter is enlarged.
-jim

[devo]

^ Nice rides; all three. White does all these cars well.

[MonteCarloM3]

what idiot would pick an m3 gts over the porsche for pure track enjoyment. duh

[Dackelone]

Nice collection of car Jim/karussell! I'm jealous!!

Now... I want to see what the inside of your garage looks like!

[Dave07997S]

The manual tranny in all Porsches are just outstanding. Even in my 997.1S the shifter felt like a rifle bolt with exteme precision and smoothness. If you could afford a M3GTS you could probably afford a GT3RS and I would go for the RS. The GTS even with 285s out back I can guarantee is searching for traction out back.

Dave