Went from BPM tune to Gintani tune

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by tdott

The big question would be, is it safe?

Pushing the limits that much, are you sure they didn't remove safe guards such as knock limits, IAT, etc. It takes ideal conditions for a motor hit it's timing targets and not pull timing. Some tuners force the motor to run max timing under less than ideal conditions by ignore knock or temp limits. IMO I'd prefer a safe tune.

Although I certainly agree with you when it comes to safe tunes, Gintani has stated elsewhere that they don't increase the minimum timing tables, meaning the safety threshold is still there

Not that I have a Gintani or BPM tune for the record

[BayE30]

I recently was in the market for a stage2 tune, so I reached out to Mike Benvo (BPM). I specifically asked him about burble tunes after hearing and seeing a Gintani tuned e92m3 in person. After discussing the method in which burble tunes are achieved, and Mike telling me that he CAN do the burble tune, but highly recommends AGAINST using said tune, I decided to go with BPM stage 2 WITHOUT burble. I plan to keep my e90m3 for a long time, and the novelty of the burble is not worth the potential long term damage to me.

[M3Dimi]

Originally Posted by tdott

The big question would be, is it safe?

Pushing the limits that much, are you sure they didn't remove safe guards such as knock limits, IAT, etc. It takes ideal conditions for a motor hit it's timing targets and not pull timing. Some tuners force the motor to run max timing under less than ideal conditions by ignore knock or temp limits. IMO I'd prefer a safe tune.

Been running it for about a year now did Bearings already no issues. Never gone into limp mode or had any start up issues or overheating. Car is an 08.

[yidgyi]

I have BPM's stage 2 and BPM's burble tune. When I miss the pops I usually upload the burble tune but I dislike the drive-ability of it and quickly switch back to the stage 2 tune. The car lurches and runs hot with the burble tune.

[zunzung]

Originally Posted by yidgyi

I have BPM's stage 2 and BPM's burble tune. When I miss the pops I usually upload the burble tune but I dislike the drive-ability of it and quickly switch back to the stage 2 tune. The car lurches and runs hot with the burble tune.

Gintani burble tune does not run hot at all and there is no noticeable lurches.

[gzim335]

Originally Posted by yidgyi

I have BPM's stage 2 and BPM's burble tune. When I miss the pops I usually upload the burble tune but I dislike the drive-ability of it and quickly switch back to the stage 2 tune. The car lurches and runs hot with the burble tune.

lmfao lurching?thats cuz he doesnt know how to implement it.
i would love to run a bpm tuned car if anyone has one in the tri state

[BPMSport]

Interesting - I don't see you in our system as someone that purchased our software. Can you please provide your VIN or order number? I can check to see which version of our software you had.

Maximum gains is definitely not what we are shooting for in our software development. The stock ignition targets are already pretty aggressive from the factory - and much higher than most other NA BMW's out there. With 91 octane especially - you can only push the car so far safely. I'm sure many of you notice some pinging on stock software at lower RPM and higher loads, and in some cases we actually pull timing from factory and modify the camshaft timing to try and alleviate this.

There is only so much to be gained on an NA car with software. People ask all the time how much do you think I will gain from tune X to your tune, and I explain that there might be a slight improvement but definitely not as much as if the car were stock to begin with. Without modifying the knock control parameters or ignition settings for reduction in higher temperatures, etc - most safe tunes will run generally similar. Now with higher octane fuels, and/or with E85, there is more leeway for extracting more power safely - but the benefits of which will be more prominent on a forced induction application

We've had people switch from almost every kind of software to ours with nothing but positive things to say... That said, I am happy you are enjoying the features of your new tune.

I am not a fan of the "burble" especially software that shoots flames out there rear - and this is for a number of reasons - one of them was touched on by 5soko quoted below:

Originally Posted by 5soko

Unless a tune was bad to begin with, not much just a tune can do on these engines to make it that much better then the next guy.. after all these years there isn’t some special or magic new found tuning fir more power that can be had... it all will come down to features and throttle sensitivity the tuner might dial in

The burble and flames isn’t something i would want on my personal car after seeing some Blackstone reports with excess fuel in it...

Have seen a number of oil reports from people running "burble tunes". This is probably not the best way to lubricate the bearings

Now there are many different ways to achieve these burbles - but I will touch on this later.. I am not a fan of the machine gun sounding type... But as 5soko touched on - throttle sensitivity can definitely be something that makes the tune feel more aggressive. In our software, we don't modify the throttle sensitivity at all - except in normal mode - and the change is slight and doesn't exceed the throttle sensitivity settings found on vehicles that are stock in the European market. We have had customers request much more aggressive throttle mapping in the past - and they love it - but I'm just not a fan of an overly touchy pedal.

Now back to the burbles.. Aside from oil analysis I've seen, there are many other reasons why I'm not a fan and do not suggest or recommend it:
1) It can create unnecessary heat by running negative ignition (meaning it's firing after top dead center), and or delaying the igniting timing event. There are also ways to do it with fueling, and cam timing.

2) I've seen premature oxygen sensor failure from this in the past. Our tuning methodology has always been focused on longevity and reliability, not just of the engine itself but of components that the engine uses for proper operation, such as the o2 sensors.

3) The "burble" on this particular ECU, with port injection, is an afterthought, and the ECU was never specifically designed with functions to know about and specifically control the burble - so it will NEVER be as good or as safe as a vehicle that was specifically designed and intended for it - as an example, the M2/M3/M4, the Jaguar Ftype, and a number of Mini's with direct injection.

4) Building on point 3 - the Bosch ECU's on cars that actually do it from the factory, have functions specifically implemented and configurable in the code for 100% safe execution and control of the burble. For example, on the F series ECU's, you can do all of the following:
a) Turn the system on or off, and the strategy for the burble
b) Control which modes in which the system operates in (Normal Mode, sport mode, etc..)
c) Set maximum and maximum limits of temperature to protect the catalytic converters and oxygen sensors
d) Set the gears in which the burble occurs or doesn’t occur
e) Set the length of the burble in each mode and essentially the strength of it
f) Set the engine speed and road speed ranges upon which the burbles occurs
g) a few other things as well -

These are just examples of what's controllable in an ECU DESIGNED for these functions. Now I had mentioned the M2, M3, M4 - and it just so happens that the control units in almost all other BMW's from 2013 until now (F Series), use basically the same or similar type of control unit - so these type of functions can be safely ported over. Yes - that means your BMW 320i 4 cylinder has this capability in full but is just not activated, and can be safely activated due to the controls and safety constraints/restrictions, some of which I touched on in the list above.

With direct injection, the DME can control precise injection of fuel at any time - not just on certain strokes - ultimately giving even more precise control of this function. The MSS60 is a very sophisticated control unit but does not have all of these controls - mainly due to the design and intention for a port injection platform.

So - just to summarize - I am NOT a fan of the "burble" on an ECU that wasn't specifically intended to do it, for all of the reasons I listed and explained above.

[Redd]

Despite his better recommendations, I forced Mike to sell me one of his burble tunes and I love it. Been running it 2 years now and no major issues. No lambda issues. Car's been totally decatted, so no cat issues. I track the car frequently and I don't have overheating issues running in tropical climate. Did my rod bearings at 70k and while there was wear it wasn't excessive. But I'd only been running the burble tune for a year during the change, so probably can't tell if it will affect the rod bearings until my next change.

I do agree the burble tune isn't as smooth on deceleration as a non-burble tune. You can feel the engine hiccup very slightly as it burbles cos the car is in gear. But it's very very slight and I've gotten used to it. Plus, I love the pops and bangs and flames!

My 2 cents fwiw.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Redd

Despite his better recommendations, I forced Mike to sell me one of his burble tunes and I love it. Been running it 2 years now and no major issues. No lambda issues. Car's been totally decatted, so no cat issues. I track the car frequently and I don't have overheating issues running in tropical climate. Did my rod bearings at 70k and while there was wear it wasn't excessive. But I'd only been running the burble tune for a year during the change, so probably can't tell if it will affect the rod bearings until my next change.

I do agree the burble tune isn't as smooth on deceleration as a non-burble tune. You can feel the engine hiccup very slightly as it burbles cos the car is in gear. But it's very very slight and I've gotten used to it. Plus, I love the pops and bangs and flames!

My 2 cents fwiw.

Glad you're enjoying it. The burble is essentially an engine "hickup" in a sense, arguably an intentional backfire. If you notice with our burble software, it won't consistently burble for a number of seconds - It burbles, stops, and then does it again cyclically. This was by design to prevent excess heat. We can do it the other way as well if you like, but it will generate more heat.

Also OP - Interested in getting your VIN # to check your software version and purchase date as I don't see a record of your purchase in our system. According to your posts you had our software for about a year and about 30,000 miles? That's a lot of driving - so I'm sure you'll enjoy your flame throwing monster for the next 30K

[Redd]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Glad you're enjoying it. The burble is essentially an engine "hickup" in a sense, arguably an intentional backfire. If you notice with our burble software, it won't consistently burble for a number of seconds - It burbles, stops, and then does it again cyclically. This was by design to prevent excess heat. We can do it the other way as well if you like, but it will generate more heat.

Happy with the way it is now!

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by SFCM3

I recently was in the market for a stage2 tune, so I reached out to Mike Benvo (BPM). I specifically asked him about burble tunes after hearing and seeing a Gintani tuned e92m3 in person. After discussing the method in which burble tunes are achieved, and Mike telling me that he CAN do the burble tune, but highly recommends AGAINST using said tune, I decided to go with BPM stage 2 WITHOUT burble. I plan to keep my e90m3 for a long time, and the novelty of the burble is not worth the potential long term damage to me.

what reason did he give? i have no idea, but i'd venture to guess you're more likely to leave a bunch of carbon and shit on the exhaust valves.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

what reason did he give? i have no idea, but i'd venture to guess you're more likely to leave a bunch of carbon and shit on the exhaust valves.

See my post above...

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

See my post above...

aah, thank you. heat.

so is my theory of crap accumulating on the exhaust valves faster completely wrong? or is that feasible?

[1SWEET_M3]

I have been running Gintani's tune for quite a while now and I couldn't be any happier. Car runs extremely smooth and pulls much harder than when it was stock. Haven't had any issues with my tune at all. Also have a custom burble tune which hasn't gave any issues either. I did take BPM, ESS, Evolve into consideration prior to getting a tune but I felt the most comfortable with Gintani from speaking to the owner Alex.

[timothy2001]

I guess in Greenwich the phrase would be, ‘she runs like Muffy being chased by Biff’.

Personal preference, if the OP likes the burble and flames shooting out the ass end well then good for him and I damn sure like the BPM tune over the Dinan.

To each his or her own.

[818m3e92]

Originally Posted by k3silk

+1 What do they offer that is better is there anything backing your claim? Do you have dyno or anything else other then butt dyno?

Theres DYNO numbers posted by another user on this forum, he got gintani x pipe and race exhaust, paired with their tune and a MS pulley and did near 400whp on 91 oct, but I'm sure OP will post some of his, but you can simply go onto their instagram and if you scroll down you'll find the dyno numbers and with e85 FYI

[818m3e92]

Originally Posted by M43S7RO

Although burble sounds really cool, I'd be hesitant to run it long-term without more info regarding the potential ill-effects. I imagine the fuel mixture runs significantly rich to produce the effect and there is no info on what impact that can have on our engines.

The fact that Benvo does not recommend it is telling enough.

I guess the potential for rod bearing issues isn't enough for some...

Well since you mention long term, I've had the gintani tune with burble option on my 2011 DCT E92 for over 53k miles, 27k miles and now just over 80k, I drive hard, and redline, and have never had any issues with anything with my car, i also had the gintani tune before they had the burble option on my previous 2008 e92 which was for 15k miles and was great as well, to be honest, i don't see how burbles or overrun is considered bad when all the newest super cars burble stock lol, huracan, rs7, ford RS, m4 GTS etc. Anybody who's against the burble OPTION most likely doesn't have the capability (which they don't) and or are hating on the tune without any concrete evidence of usage, such as both of my cars, just incase you were curious, I LOVE the tune, and all my family friends tune with gintani!

[818m3e92]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

A tune might add about 7 hp. If a tuner pushes further the ECU will just adapt power down as the motor knocks unless you are using e85 or race gas or meth injection. I doubt there is much difference among tunes if measured on a dyno on the same car with the same mods and fuel.

That may possibly be true, but what i do know is gintani's DCT tune is different from other tuners who offer the regular GTS DCT file, where as Gintani has a custom DCT file, and its VERY aggressive and the servitronics option makes the steering wheel tight and the shifts are crisp and fast.

[818m3e92]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

We got essentially the same thread the other day describing Dinan to BPM

I have one tuned, Xpipe car and another that is completely stock. There is certainly a difference, but I wouldn't say one runs 'like a raped ape' vs the other. And mind you, the Xpipe is only on the tuned car.

My car had pulley x pipe stock muffler and gintani tune DCT, and gapped a DINAN tuned e92 with DINAN pulley, intake, muffler, and a test pipe DCT as well, definitely is a difference in power.

[818m3e92]

Originally Posted by 5soko

Unless a tune was bad to begin with, not much just a tune can do on these engines to make it that much better then the next guy.. after all these years there isnt some special or magic new found tuning fir more power that can be had... it all will come down to features and throttle sensitivity the tuner might dial in

The burble and flames isn?t something i would want on my personal car after seeing some blackstone reports with excess fuel in it...

You personally saw blackstone reports of gintani tuned cars with the burble option?

[818m3e92]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

You can shoot out your bearings too ...

LOL, you can throw a bearing without any mods as well haha, its a problem with the e92 especially prior to 2011 the bearings had lead in them. Ive had my gintani tune with burble option for over 53k miles, nothing blew lol, haven't had any issues at all except doing regular maintenance, and i push my car a lot, in case you were curious of people out there who've had it for long periods of time and mileage. Any tune can cause you to throw a bearing if they get worn down enough naturally, its a issue you cannot avoid and cannot blame on a tune lol. Also, if burbles are so bad, why did BMW have the m4 GTS burble stock? Why does the RS7 and Huracan both N/A burble stock? I doubt something is bad if the best cars being produced are now coming with the option standard.

[818m3e92]

Originally Posted by tdott

The big question would be, is it safe?

Pushing the limits that much, are you sure they didn't remove safe guards such as knock limits, IAT, etc. It takes ideal conditions for a motor hit it's timing targets and not pull timing. Some tuners force the motor to run max timing under less than ideal conditions by ignore knock or temp limits. IMO I'd prefer a safe tune.

Safe tune? According to other people ALL ECU tunes are the same and gain same power, but incase you're curious I've had my car with a gintani tune with burble option for over 53k miles now in 3 years, NO PROBLEMS at all, YES i push my car very hard, redline is raised so i can REALLY push it, car runs great, maintenance is all I've done really, motor mounts once. I don't think a burble option is really that bad if cars like RS7, huracan, and M4GTS come burbling out the showroom.