ESS VT2-650 Engine Blowout/Bearing Failure at 20k miles

[IMG]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

If you have an issue with your engine it won't matter if you upgrade to the 625 or stay 550, if it is gonna fail it will fail regardless. With that being said for the number of S65's out there the failure rate is very, very small....... Web forums have a way of amplifying how big an issue really is.

All the ESS kits have proven reliable due to their excellent software which leaves the factory self preservation measures in effect to prevent engine damage. The biggest killer of any spark ignition engine is detonation. If detonation is controlled properly you should have little worries, ESS software retains the stock knock sensing parameters and the engine will protect itself by controlling knock and therefore detonation.

From what I have seen ESS don't put their name on a bad product and doesn't release anything without doing the necessary R&D (I am not biased since I don't even have an SC on my car, I am just a mechanic/engine builder adding my $0.02). Do the 625 upgrade with confidence, keep your engine maintenance intervals to 5000 miles or less and always run good fuel and you should have no worries!

THIS !

[exmowner]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Good advice!



Please share your results once you get them!

I will!

[M3PO]

Finally we got BMRLVR in here to talk some sense into people.

Everyone keeps talking about these new fangled "upgraded" and "reinforced" bearings. What the hell does that mean? They got a new coating? If the crank makes contact with the bearing (the failure mode), that won't matter much (maybe it will last a LITTLE longer with this fancy NEW coating). They changed the oil clearances (the root of the problem)? Doubt that.

Bearings are a band aid as far as I see it. You are buying yourself time. You're not correcting the issue.

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

If you have a potential issue, the blower will multiply the potential problem exponentially; hence the reinforced rod bearings that are now standard on the 650 kits.

Originally Posted by LarThaL

So if the 650 kit now comes with reinforced rod bearings, should the SC company pay for the blown motor if they didn't provide them to the OP in the first place?

Originally Posted by chris3g

The 650 kit appears to have been quietly updated to included high performance rod bearings somewhat recently, it would be good to hear from ESS about it though.

Originally Posted by shadye90

In my opinion the 25hp increase may not be worth the headache of switching out the rod bearings but the peice of mind knowing that a potential issue with the bearings have been eliminated(at least in theory) is worth it at any power level..

Originally Posted by s65e90

why?? def shouldn't be the case. Just like this forum has gotten people to believe that changing the bearings is "almost" like a maintenance item. Is it insurance for boost?? sure, but nothing to be overly concerned about. Cars should last 250k + miles with nothing but maintenance.

+1

Originally Posted by exmowner

As per a local engine builders advice, replacing rod bearings without addressing the root cause of the issue (ie. oil starvation, clearance ect) is a band aid method.

Also from my understanding bmw measures clearance when selecting the correct bearings for our cars and replacing them with a ''one size fits all'' is not ideal.

Who's to say that if OP would have replaced his engine oil every 3000miles that this would still be the outcome?

+1

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

This is why we stress 93+ octane fuel on these kits and is why we have suggested replacing rod bearings in the past on the 650 kit for added safety. We have moved on from strongly suggesting it to now including upgraded bearings standard with the VT2-650 kit so customers understand how serious we are. We also now offer upgraded rod bearings as an option for customers who want to replace their existing set.

Roman, please explain to me/us what "upgraded" means.

Originally Posted by lenzm3edan

These threads make me worry about the reliability of these motors. Before it was 08/09 having rod bearing problems now we are seeing newer models with the same issue, also doesn't seem to make much of a difference if you are stock, have mods or supercharged. I was looking to do an upgrade from 550 to 625 but don't know if I wanna go that rought now. Still the percentage of those with blown motors seem low but don't want to ever be one of them. I feel depressed now someone please slap me.

The bearings have not changed throughout the entire production run. The part number may have changed (new supplier?) but the oil clearances did not and that is the issue. Because of this, all E9X M3s are equally susceptible to the issue IMO.

At first it was 08 and 09 because there were more of them with more miles (crazy right) than the new cars that were just delivered. Now there are more later cars getting more miles and they are starting to show the same issue. See how that works?

That said, this issue seems to be somewhat random and only significantly affects a small portion of cars.

My '08 has 61k miles and consistently shows high bearing wear metals in the oil. No scary noises yet though.

[baba louey]

"The bearings have not changed throughout the entire production run. The part number may have changed (new supplier?) but the oil clearances did not and that is the issue. Because of this, all E9X M3s are equally susceptible to the issue IMO."

Please explain what you mean by oil clearances. If you mean the clearance between the rod bearing and the crank journal, I would have thought that this specification would have been worked out decades ago.

[regular guy]

AFAIK the rod bearings and part numbers haven't changed for the entire production run. And yes he's talking about the main journal to bearing clearance, and rod journal to bearing clearance. There's apparently a disagreement about whether or not the factory clearance offers enough safety margin or not.

[Ezio]

funny, it seems like every high performance motor these days has one weak point.

[jbraslins]

Originally Posted by Ezio

funny, it seems like every high performance motor these days has one weak point.

thats the nature of any mechanical device. if you reinforce that weak point, something else will become the weakest point.

[exmowner]

Originally Posted by M3PO

Finally we got BMRLVR in here to talk some sense into people.

Everyone keeps talking about these new fangled "upgraded" and "reinforced" bearings. What the hell does that mean? They got a new coating? If the crank makes contact with the bearing (the failure mode), that won't matter much (maybe it will last a LITTLE longer with this fancy NEW coating). They changed the oil clearances (the root of the problem)? Doubt that.

Bearings are a band aid as far as I see it. You are buying yourself time. You're not correcting the issue.

Finally someone that agrees

[DATM3]

Hmm... this thread is very interesting. I have been pondering the idea of getting my rod bearings replaced due to this thread since my mileage is getting up there (and being boosted). I am at 70k miles now. Do you guys think it is necessary now or maybe even at 100k, 150k+ to get these bearings replaced? BMRLVR raises some very valid points about the bearings and the clearance of the oil. I have also not seen/heard of any higher mileage cars having rod bearing issues. Do any of you boosted guys plan on getting your rod bearings replaced in the future or at some mileage point?

[W///]

Originally Posted by aznboi319

Hmm... this thread is very interesting. I have been pondering the idea of getting my rod bearings replaced due to this thread since my mileage is getting up there (and being boosted). I am at 70k miles now. Do you guys think it is necessary now or maybe even at 100k, 150k+ to get these bearings replaced? BMRLVR raises some very valid points about the bearings and the clearance of the oil. I have also not seen/heard of any higher mileage cars having rod bearing issues. Do any of you boosted guys plan on getting your rod bearings replaced in the future or at some mileage point?

Like I said before, just get your oil analyzed during each oil change. Then you can keep a tab on the lead content (Blackstone says that's usually a sign of rod bearing issues). If the levels are low or stay constant, then you are fine.

Personally, I wouldn't change the rod bearings unless my oil analysis comes back bad, or if I go boosted. Also agree with M3PO. What does an "upgraded rod bearing" even mean?

[baba louey]

Originally Posted by regular guy

AFAIK the rod bearings and part numbers haven't changed for the entire production run. And yes he's talking about the main journal to bearing clearance, and rod journal to bearing clearance. There's apparently a disagreement about whether or not the factory clearance offers enough safety margin or not.

I gotta believe that bearing clearance was covered in engine design 101. For BMW to miscalculate something like that is far-fetched.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by baba louey

I gotta believe that bearing clearance was covered in engine design 101. For BMW to miscalculate something like that is far-fetched.

Trust me, BMW builds this engine too tight for comfort....... I have assembled thousands of engines and 0.001" per inch of journal diameter is a very common assumption. Since the S65 has journals of just over 2 inches 0.002" would make me feel a whole lot better than the 0.001" the engine is built with from BMW!

Basically BMW likes to build their engines tight....... Tight tolerances are very commonplace when Germans are building stuff........ The problem is that it leaves you no room for error.

Dinan for example builds their strokers with 0.019" main clearance and 0.025" rod clearance!

[baba louey]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Trust me, BMW builds this engine too tight for comfort....... I have assembled thousands of engines and 0.001" per inch of journal diameter is a very common assumption. Since the S65 has journals of just over 2 inches 0.002" would make me feel a whole lot better than the 0.001" the engine is built with from BMW!

Basically BMW likes to build their engines tight....... Tight tolerances are very commonplace when Germans are building stuff........ The problem is that it leaves you no room for error.

Dinan for example builds their strokers with 0.019" main clearance and 0.025" rod clearance!

Thanks for the details. As soon as I read your comments on tight German tolerances, it reminded me of the German WWII machine guns. Beautifully made but get a speck of dirt in them and they'd jam. German solders used to take grab the Russian machine guns after a battle and use them instead of their own. They never jammed.

[baba louey]

Do you have any sense what the clearances might be after break-in or several 1000 KMs?

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by jbraslins

thats the nature of any mechanical device. if you reinforce that weak point, something else will become the weakest point.

right, i am talking about from factory. I remember my last car, it was the oil pumps that could fail.

[VCMpower]

OP , any news? Oh right, BMW M division does not understand basic engine building.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by aznboi319

Hmm... this thread is very interesting. I have been pondering the idea of getting my rod bearings replaced due to this thread since my mileage is getting up there (and being boosted). I am at 70k miles now. Do you guys think it is necessary now or maybe even at 100k, 150k+ to get these bearings replaced? BMRLVR raises some very valid points about the bearings and the clearance of the oil. I have also not seen/heard of any higher mileage cars having rod bearing issues. Do any of you boosted guys plan on getting your rod bearings replaced in the future or at some mileage point?

I'm channeling BMWLVR for this post...

I bet he would tell you that it's anyone's guess when they will eventually fail. But I bet he would also say that if they haven't failed at this point, it's likely that they will fine for quite a while 9again, anyone's guess as to how long).

Saying something like "boosted cars should have the bearings changed at 100K miles" is just speculation.

[exmowner]

Originally Posted by M3PO

I'm channeling BMWLVR for this post...

I bet he would tell you that it's anyone's guess when they will eventually fail. But I bet he would also say that if they haven't failed at this point, it's likely that they will fine for quite a while 9again, anyone's guess as to how long).

Saying something like "boosted cars should have the bearings changed at 100K miles" is just speculation.

I think your right!

I was going to have my bearings replaced before I had the supercharger installed. After messaging BMWLVR I decided against it.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by baba louey

Do you have any sense what the clearances might be after break-in or several 1000 KMs?

Bearing clearances don't change after break-in. Bearing clearances are supposed to remain nearly constant over the service life of the engine....... As bearings wear oil pressure starts dropping off, when oil pressure no longer meets specs bearing are worn beyond spec!

[baba louey]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Bearing clearances don't change after break-in. Bearing clearances are supposed to remain nearly constant over the service life of the engine....... As bearings wear oil pressure starts dropping off, when oil pressure no longer meets specs bearing are worn beyond spec!

Thanks. I appreciate your answers.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

OP , any news? Oh right, BMW M division does not understand basic engine building.

Stop making these childish, condescending posts! Obviously BMW M knows how to design an engine, but since they have had a massive rod bearing recall in the past they may have some issues with their clearances on mains and rods!

If these engines spun to 7k they would probably be fine with 0.001" of clearance, but spinning 8.4k the hydrodynamic wedge of oil is not thick enough to prevent metal on metal contact in some instances. This boundary lubrication condition takes its toll on bearings over a period of time!

[exmowner]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Stop making these childish, condescending posts!

+1