M3 or 1M??

[adc]

Originally Posted by E. Honda

Do you really need evidence? The only thing that it has the M3 beat in is torque, and thats because the engine isn't NA.

- Well that, and weight.
- And a shorter wheelbase should, in theory, make it more nimble (at the expense of some stability).
- And ease of tuning - a chip will see this thing put down significantly better numbers than the M3. Fact of life, there will be very few 1Ms running around stock, given the enthusiast target audience.


Don't be surprised at your local track if one of these things blows by you... it should be easier on the brakes & tires, so as the session advances the M3 can fall more and more behind.

As long as you understand this, and still like the M3 for its other qualities (engine, balance, space etc.), you should be ok.

[TunedM2C]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I dont think they will be passing many M3s when they overheat, go into limp mode and/or have their HPFP's fail.
Considering how much smaller they are dimensionally than an m3, theyre only IIRC 200 lbs lighter. Thats not THAT much.

From what I hear the latest edition HPFP has solved the problem so I would think the 1M would get the same pump. The weight savings is also 408 lbs. but who's counting?

[Jaypod]

Originally Posted by E. Honda

Do you really need evidence? The only thing that it has the M3 beat in is torque, and thats because the engine isn't NA.

Actually yes I do. If someone is going to make a bold statement, I would like to see facts to back it up. Otherwise it's just talk. Adc sumed it up. I see certain cars get passed at the track all the time, which according to some of the things on this forum should never happen.

[Serious]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/24/b...to-the-scales/

3351 with a full tank in street trim. So about 300lbs lighter than a street trim full tank e92 m3.

baseline 335is dyno I found put out 299whp/316wtq. so a 1M provincial pw/wt ratio of 11.17whp/lb
for reference e92 m3 are ~345whp stock. 3650/345 = 10.6whp/lb

The m3 will be faster but not that much faster. A honest 300lb weight reduction isn't anything to scoff at on the track either that essentially the difference between an e46 m3 and e46 m3 csl.

[TunedM2C]

Originally Posted by Serious

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/24/b...to-the-scales/

3351 with a full tank in street trim. So about 300lbs lighter than a street trim full tank e92 m3.

I don't know how I ever missed the 1M actually getting weighted?? In any case, I was using BMW's reported figures but real world is where it's at.

[Nautik]

Originally Posted by Jaypod

Actually yes I do. If someone is going to make a bold statement, I would like to see facts to back it up. Otherwise it's just talk. Adc sumed it up. I see certain cars get passed at the track all the time, which according to some of the things on this forum should never happen.

+1

I pass Porsche 911s all day at the track in my e46 m3. Therefore, e46 M3 > Porsche 911.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by Nautik

+1

I pass Porsche 911s all day at the track in my e46 m3. Therefore, e46 M3 > Porsche 911.

Faulty logic

[Nautik]

Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider

Faulty logic

Yes exactly. I guess the point I was trying to make was even if a tuned 1M can pass an M3 on the track, you don't know the reasons. It could have a better driver, better tires, better suspension, interior could be pulled out, high end brake kit and suspension, etc. It doesn't mean it is a faster car, it just an unfair advantage.

In my case, it would probably most often be tires, weight reduction, and probably driver.

[Nautik]

Originally Posted by shift@red

And Schumacher could probably pass you on the track in a toyota yaris. Therefore yaris>m3. I seriously hope you were being serious, otherwise thats a pretty big logic fail.

Any car needs to be driven correctly for its given platform. a 911 is THE most rewarding car to drive when you have learned to do so.

When I had my cayman S, i used to own e46 m3s all day-and my cayman S other than an exhaust was stock while most of the e46 m3s had coilovers, wheels, and other performance parts. Cayman S>>m3

yea sorry, I forgot the /sarcasm face

[adc]

Originally Posted by Nautik

I pass Porsche 911s all day at the track in my e46 m3. Therefore, e46 M3 > Porsche 911.

Well, to me it's more a case of comparing to previous cars on tracks that I know reasonably well. When re-running those events in my mind, I can plainly see which parts an 1M might have an advantage over the M3 (and vice-versa). But bottom line is that a street car on a racetrack will have to manage resources as sessions advance - the harder you push the more you'll have to manage those resources (tires, brakes etc.). When you get to a certain level of speed, you're talking about a small percent (say 5% for the sake of the discussion) that can send the car over the edge and overheat tires/brakes after which performance declines. So you're always around that edge, trying to find it and not exceed it. Well at least for me.

In this scenario, throwing 300lbs from a car like the M3 would do wonders, it would significantly extend that edge to where you can:
a) go faster for longer, or
b) conserve expensive consumables, or
c) a combination of both

So provisionally, without any real proof to back it up, I can see how the 1M might be faster over a session on certain tracks. That's all I'm saying.

The 1M is NOT a 335i or 335is, that much is clear to me.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by shift@red

When I had my cayman S, i used to own e46 m3s all day-and my cayman S other than an exhaust was stock while most of the e46 m3s had coilovers, wheels, and other performance parts. Cayman S>>m3

Here is a link to a great article comparing well modded Z4M Coupe to well modded Cayman S to well modded 997 S. The Z4M was the closest I could find to an E46M and the 1M has not had any comparison tests yet. The Cayman beats the Z4M, but the 997 beats both.

http://www.europeancarweb.com/projec...n_s/index.html

[adc]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Here is a link to a great article comparing well modded Z4M Coupe to well modded Cayman S to well modded 997 S. The Z4M was the closest I could find to an E46M and the 1M has not had any comparison tests yet. The Cayman beats the Z4M, but the 997 beats both.

http://www.europeancarweb.com/projec...n_s/index.html

What an interesting article! Thanks!

[Serious]

Not to pick at the article but the data seems a little funny, if I had to guess I would say the brake balance was completely fubared in the mz4.


TABLE 1: THE BLOKE’S HARD DATA
Car Lap Time Average Speed Peak Speed Max g-Force Max g-Force Max g-Force Time on Brakes
(sec.) (mph) (mph) Acceleration Lateral* Braking (sec.)
Z4M 92.15 75.40 126.1 0.48 1.28 1.05 16.85
X51 91.25 76.15 134.1 0.50 1.32 1.09 15.35
997 S 90.45 76.89 133.9 0.54 1.36 1.16 14.90

Assuming the brembo GT kit brakes (F&R) are at least equal to the porsche setup in caliper/rotor quality (they really should be)... why is the slowest car spending the most time on the brakes? and it's significantly the most time... the entire delta between the laptimes is made up by the porsches under braking.

I bet with proper balance (or a new braking setup) the mz4 could improve significantly, although it will never have the center of gravity advantage either of the porsches have under braking. But that is where porsche's (and specifically 911's) always have an advantage.

(to be clear, im not just sticking up for the mz4 because I own one... rightly so it should get obliterated by both a 997s and modded cayman, it was still behind both the cars in every other measured category.)

[Serious]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Where would you expect it not to have come in last compared to the other two?

It should've come last in nearly every category, im not denying that... but given similar braking equipment, it shouldn't be 2 sec down just under braking when it's also down 8mph in top speed to a car like a 911 which should artificially spend more time on the brakes due to trail braking.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I assume you saw this at the bottom of page 2:

"A major pitfall, however, was its uncertain brake pedal feel, which varied slightly with rpm and reduced driver confidence at the limit..."

No actually I didn't notice that... so yeah it looks like the dynamic brake control wasn't playing nice with the brembo's.

I have to disagree with their assumption that it can be "adapted to" because the data clearly shows this isn't the case. There is no reason an M coupe with that braking equipment in proper working order should spend 11.5% more time braking when it's already traveling 6% slower.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by Nautik

Yes exactly. I guess the point I was trying to make was even if a tuned 1M can pass an M3 on the track, you don't know the reasons. It could have a better driver, better tires, better suspension, interior could be pulled out, high end brake kit and suspension, etc. It doesn't mean it is a faster car, it just an unfair advantage.

In my case, it would probably most often be tires, weight reduction, and probably driver.

It's not about what the car can do, but what you can make the car do. If you can drive a E46 M3 quicker around a track than a 911 (997?) then E46 > 911 for you. The only variable should be the car you are driving. But I judge a car on how entertaining it is to drive, own, sense, etc. Basically its character. I would prefer a E30 M3 to own and operate over any M3 every made, in the past, present, or future. It could be the slowest for all I care. And being the slowest would mean (to me) the most rewarding to drive hard.