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      04-23-2011, 09:40 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by RuthlessE90 View Post
Not surprised at all
Ditto.

I'm still waiting to hear about the supposed "special edition" M3 were supposed to see this summer. my money is on another special trim/color combo sedan (a send off for its last year), much like last years frozen grey coupe.
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      04-23-2011, 10:03 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by aus View Post
That's BMW Cool-aid.
Porsche has been able to bring all kinds of limited run cars here but BMW can't?? Or won't.
it is not about can't or don't want... it is doing at a price point that they can sell.

Same reason the Honda does not bring Type Rs to North America... not enough people will buy a 30k civic...

not enough people will buy 100k M3s

but enough people will buy 200k limited run 911s

it is pure economics
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      04-23-2011, 10:16 AM   #47
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It shouldn't cost $100k if they keep the same engine. The engineering is done already.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      04-23-2011, 10:25 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redline9001 View Post
it is not about can't or don't want... it is doing at a price point that they can sell.

Same reason the Honda does not bring Type Rs to North America... not enough people will buy a 30k civic...

not enough people will buy 100k M3s

but enough people will buy 200k limited run 911s

it is pure economics
Exactly! This decision is a sign that the cost to homologate/federalize the lightweight E90 M3 for the US would make it so expensive as to NOT make business sense (i.e. selling it at a price point where they can sell enough).

BMW like any other auto company is a business afterall, and their decisions have to make business sense at the end of the day. If bringing the lightweight E90 M3 to the US made business sense, we'd surely see it here.
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      04-24-2011, 04:17 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by eatrach73 View Post
so let me get this straight. We are BMW's biggest market yet we get treated with "throw a bone to the dog".
We don't need "you can look, but can't have" attitude. It is time for all German car manufacturers to rethink their strategies concerning the US market.
Excuse me???

The rest of the world subsidizes the U.S. market by paying up to twice as much for their BMWs as you do, just for BMW beeing able to compete with Hondas, Nissans and Toyotas. How's that for "throwing a bone"?
Feel free to move over to Europe and pay $80.000 for a 335i.

Please get your facts straight.

Rant over.
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      04-24-2011, 09:23 AM   #50
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Interesting interview. One bit of info that would have been useful to know more about, IMHO of course, is...

- Month/Year that production of E92 M3 will end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante View Post
Excuse me???

The rest of the world subsidizes the U.S. market by paying up to twice as much for their BMWs as you do, just for BMW beeing able to compete with Hondas, Nissans and Toyotas. How's that for "throwing a bone"?
Feel free to move over to Europe and pay $80.000 for a 335i.

Please get your facts straight.

Rant over.
Maybe this will help.

AFAIK, BMW does not collect the monies that are the difference between what US customers pay and what the rest of the world pays for their BMW's. The reason the price of an M3 is Australia, for example, is so much greater than an M3 sold in the US market is thanks to the Australian government slapping LCT (Luxury Car Tax), GST (Good and Services Tax) on all imported cars. Those taxes can combine to substantially increase the cost of the car before the dealer even begins to think about increasing its profit margin with an at-the-dealership-level-markup.

In short, BMW customers around the world are "subsidizing" their own governments by paying ridiculously high prices for imported automobiles; LCT, GST, VRT(Vehicle Registration Tax) which, depending on the country, any of the three can, by itself, or in combination drive the cost of the car up from x% to xxx% of what we think of as MSRP).

So, what we have is a situation that demands BMW customers fork over more cash thanks to governments of the world engaging in protectionism designed to spare their respective national automotive manufacturers from having to compete with foreign manufacturers on an even playing field. The huge taxes on imports artificially inflate the price of BMW's or any other imported brand automobile in a given country, and in market economies we can bank on the law of demand playing its part: When the price of a good or service increases, the demand for that good or service decreases. That, my friend, is how a government can hold down the demand for the foreign good with the manufacturer of the national good continuing to see demand for its relatively inexpensive good. Of course, if you live in a place like Switzerland, which has no automobile manufacturers, the import taxes are not a factor since the Swiss Government has nothing to protect from foreign competition.

EDIT: Having noted you are advertising living in Germany, BMW's only incur the VAT rather than import tax + VAT. You have it easy compared to most others in the world that are looking at BMW's.
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      04-24-2011, 02:35 PM   #51
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      04-24-2011, 08:59 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eau Rouge View Post
Interesting interview. One bit of info that would have been useful to know more about, IMHO of course, is...

- Month/Year that production of E92 M3 will end.



Maybe this will help.

AFAIK, BMW does not collect the monies that are the difference between what US customers pay and what the rest of the world pays for their BMW's. The reason the price of an M3 is Australia, for example, is so much greater than an M3 sold in the US market is thanks to the Australian government slapping LCT (Luxury Car Tax), GST (Good and Services Tax) on all imported cars. Those taxes can combine to substantially increase the cost of the car before the dealer even begins to think about increasing its profit margin with an at-the-dealership-level-markup.

In short, BMW customers around the world are "subsidizing" their own governments by paying ridiculously high prices for imported automobiles; LCT, GST, VRT(Vehicle Registration Tax) which, depending on the country, any of the three can, by itself, or in combination drive the cost of the car up from x% to xxx% of what we think of as MSRP).

So, what we have is a situation that demands BMW customers fork over more cash thanks to governments of the world engaging in protectionism designed to spare their respective national automotive manufacturers from having to compete with foreign manufacturers on an even playing field. The huge taxes on imports artificially inflate the price of BMW's or any other imported brand automobile in a given country, and in market economies we can bank on the law of demand playing its part: When the price of a good or service increases, the demand for that good or service decreases. That, my friend, is how a government can hold down the demand for the foreign good with the manufacturer of the national good continuing to see demand for its relatively inexpensive good. Of course, if you live in a place like Switzerland, which has no automobile manufacturers, the import taxes are not a factor since the Swiss Government has nothing to protect from foreign competition.

EDIT: Having noted you are advertising living in Germany, BMW's only incur the VAT rather than import tax + VAT. You have it easy compared to most others in the world that are looking at BMW's.
THANK YOU! that was truly a great speech. i didnt know about the swiss thing, but it was really informative.

im glad we dont have a VAT in the states and i hope we continue to in the future.
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      04-25-2011, 04:59 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eau Rouge View Post

Maybe this will help.

AFAIK, BMW does not collect the monies that are the difference between what US customers pay and what the rest of the world pays for their BMW's. The reason the price of an M3 is Australia, for example, is so much greater than an M3 sold in the US market is thanks to the Australian government slapping LCT (Luxury Car Tax), GST (Good and Services Tax) on all imported cars. Those taxes can combine to substantially increase the cost of the car before the dealer even begins to think about increasing its profit margin with an at-the-dealership-level-markup.

In short, BMW customers around the world are "subsidizing" their own governments by paying ridiculously high prices for imported automobiles; LCT, GST, VRT(Vehicle Registration Tax) which, depending on the country, any of the three can, by itself, or in combination drive the cost of the car up from x% to xxx% of what we think of as MSRP).

So, what we have is a situation that demands BMW customers fork over more cash thanks to governments of the world engaging in protectionism designed to spare their respective national automotive manufacturers from having to compete with foreign manufacturers on an even playing field. The huge taxes on imports artificially inflate the price of BMW's or any other imported brand automobile in a given country, and in market economies we can bank on the law of demand playing its part: When the price of a good or service increases, the demand for that good or service decreases. That, my friend, is how a government can hold down the demand for the foreign good with the manufacturer of the national good continuing to see demand for its relatively inexpensive good. Of course, if you live in a place like Switzerland, which has no automobile manufacturers, the import taxes are not a factor since the Swiss Government has nothing to protect from foreign competition.

EDIT: Having noted you are advertising living in Germany, BMW's only incur the VAT rather than import tax + VAT. You have it easy compared to most others in the world that are looking at BMW's.
No sorry, not helping much.

Why? Although I totally agree with your point on import taxes and VAT, you didn't consider the most important thing at all: currency rate.

A BMW like the M3, which is still built in Germany, has to be calculated in EUR.
Most parts come from EU and employees have to be payed in EUR.

Lets stick with the example of a bone stock E92 M3:

In the U.S., a bone stock M3 comes to a base price of USD 59,775, incl. destination charge within US.

In Germany, the same car is EUR 57,773 net, without our 19% VAT. Although the car is built about 100 miles away from me, I have to pay between EUR 400 - 800 destination charge for the car beeing delivered to my dealer.
Thats a base price of about EUR 58,300.
To bring our bare german spec. M3 up to U.S. standard, we need to add:
- Auto dimming and tilting mirrors: EUR 320.00
- Adjustable front armrest: EUR 130.00
- Hifi-speaker system: EUR 480.00
- Radio BMW Professional EUR 180.00
- Ambiance lighting: EUR 220.00
- Shadowline trim: 440.00

Our total german base price is: EUR 60,070

Lets compare: Todays exchange rate EUR/USD is 1.4567.
So the US M3 comes down to EUR 41,034. If we deduct a moderate shipping/customs rate of about EUR 1,000 we get a sum of EUR 40,000.

If we leave dealer discounts and dealer margins aside, BMW gets about 1/3 less for each M3 sold in the U.S. The difference grows even more if you add options like Nav (EUR 1,200 more in Germany than in U.S.), DCT (EUR 1,300 more) or Competition Package (EUR 1,900 more).

That is my point and probably the reason why most M Special Editions won't make it overseas: The numbers produced are way to small to subsidize U.S. pricing. Or like Jason put correctly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
If bringing the lightweight E90 M3 to the US made business sense, we'd surely see it here.

Last edited by Dante; 04-25-2011 at 05:16 AM. Reason: typos
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      04-25-2011, 06:09 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante View Post
No sorry, not helping much.

Why? Although I totally agree with your point on import taxes and VAT, you didn't consider the most important thing at all: currency rate.

A BMW like the M3, which is still built in Germany, has to be calculated in EUR.
Most parts come from EU and employees have to be payed in EUR.

Lets stick with the example of a bone stock E92 M3:

In the U.S., a bone stock M3 comes to a base price of USD 59,775, incl. destination charge within US.

In Germany, the same car is EUR 57,773 net, without our 19% VAT. Although the car is built about 100 miles away from me, I have to pay between EUR 400 - 800 destination charge for the car beeing delivered to my dealer.
Thats a base price of about EUR 58,300.
To bring our bare german spec. M3 up to U.S. standard, we need to add:
- Auto dimming and tilting mirrors: EUR 320.00
- Adjustable front armrest: EUR 130.00
- Hifi-speaker system: EUR 480.00
- Radio BMW Professional EUR 180.00
- Ambiance lighting: EUR 220.00
- Shadowline trim: 440.00

Our total german base price is: EUR 60,070

Lets compare: Todays exchange rate EUR/USD is 1.4567.
So the US M3 comes down to EUR 41,034. If we deduct a moderate shipping/customs rate of about EUR 1,000 we get a sum of EUR 40,000.

If we leave dealer discounts and dealer margins aside, BMW gets about 1/3 less for each M3 sold in the U.S. The difference grows even more if you add options like Nav (EUR 1,200 more in Germany than in U.S.), DCT (EUR 1,300 more) or Competition Package (EUR 1,900 more).

That is my point and probably the reason why most M Special Editions won't make it overseas: The numbers produced are way to small to subsidize U.S. pricing. Or like Jason put correctly:

You make my point for me -- Those in Germany can own an M3 for a relatively cheap price compared to most others in the world. What's with the complaining?


I agree that currency is a factor, but Germany is not a country which would be a "typical" country to single out as a fine representative of the countries which are "subsidizing" the relatively low price that individuals in the USA are expected to pay for an M3. However, you've used Germany as an example, and even though import duties are not applicable to M3's let's proceed. Does it seem normal that individuals living in the country where a particular vehicle is being produced (e.g. BMW M3) should be expected to pay more than individuals living in another country are expected to pay for the same vehicle? If so, what it the logic? If not, why not?

AFAIK, BMW does not have factories in most countries in which it sells cars. It does have a production in Spartanburg, SC, and having the option to route dollars derived doing business in the USA through its stateside facilities rather than convert the dollars to euros or some other currency gives BMW some currency flexibility in the USA that doesn't have in most countries of the world.

At the end of the day, the customer will have to pay the applicable taxes to drive away with the car. The currency rate aspect is a pricing factor, but what matters to a potential buyer is out-the-door-price, and that includes VAT, gas guzzler tax, VRT, etc.., That is what drives the great price variance for the M3 about the globe, not currency factoring, and talking about this group or that group having to subsidize another group just has a ring of sour grapes about it.
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      04-25-2011, 08:00 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Eau Rouge View Post
You make my point for me -- Those in Germany can own an M3 for a relatively cheap price compared to most others in the world. What's with the complaining?
I know that Germany is not the most expensive car market in the world. You take my comments out of context. You keep going on talking about taxes and import duties. I never did. I'm talking about comparing net prices, without any tax added. So I don' t see where I made your point.

I think its rather remarkable that there are markets (like the U.S.) where the same or even better products are sold for less then in others, just because of different market structures, consumer behavior and thus different competition. In Europe, manufacturers like BMW, Audi or Mercedes Benz don't have to compete with Toyota, Honda or Nissan. It's a whole different market segment.

What brings me up the wall are comments like the one I originally referred to.
I think some people in the U.S. really don't know how lucky they are when it comes to purchasing cars while at the same time they think they are treated unfair.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Last edited by Dante; 04-25-2011 at 08:27 AM.
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      04-25-2011, 08:50 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante View Post
I know that Germany is not the most expensive car market in the world. You take my comments out of context. You keep going on talking about taxes and import duties. I never did. I'm talking about comparing net prices, without any tax added. So I don' t see where I made your point.

I think its rather remarkable that there are markets (like the U.S.) where the same or even better products are sold for less then in others, just because of different market structures, consumer behavior and thus different competition. In Europe, manufacturers like BMW, Audi or Mercedes Benz don't have to compete with Toyota, Honda or Nissan. It's a whole different market segment.

What brings me up the wall are comments like the one I originally referred to.
I think some people in the U.S. really don't know how lucky they are when it comes to purchasing cars while at the same time they think they are treated unfair.

Nothing more, nothing less.
I do agree with you that there is a plus to paying for a car in the USA. Yes, deals are generally good. And sadly, a lot of people simply do not understand how good they have it. Having lived overseas, third world countries etc.., buying there is a rip off of the first order; IMHO of course.

To the disagreable part...

I responded to a specific "subsidizing" comment; quoted below.

Quote:
The rest of the world subsidizes the U.S. market by paying up to twice as much for their BMWs as you do, just for BMW beeing able to compete with Hondas, Nissans and Toyotas. How's that for "throwing a bone"?
Feel free to move over to Europe and pay $80.000 for a 335i.
Therein is nothing about "net prices" that creates the context that you now claim to have had in mind. In your second post you introduce a tax-free paradigm, but even that one fails to be convincing on two counts:

1. The German market is hardly up to representing the bulk of the world's domestic markets to conclude that indeed BMW pricing (minus tax) is such, perhaps even discriminatory if you will, that US customers are getting a better deal on the backs of non-US customers.
2. Larger markets, and the USA is the largest BMW market, present large businesses with the luxury of being able to reach their profit goal with smaller profit margins per unit sold.

Smaller markets. for their part, leave a business in a position of seeking higher profit margins per unit sold. Given the disparity between the German and US market, it may well be that the sheer amount of profit BMW makes in the much larger US market is used to subsidize pricing of BMW's sold in Germany. Imagine that!
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      04-25-2011, 10:50 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eau Rouge View Post

1. The German market is hardly up to representing the bulk of the world's domestic markets to conclude that indeed BMW pricing (minus tax) is such, perhaps even discriminatory if you will, that US customers are getting a better deal on the backs of non-US customers.
2. Larger markets, and the USA is the largest BMW market, present large businesses with the luxury of being able to reach their profit goal with smaller profit margins per unit sold.

Smaller markets. for their part, leave a business in a position of seeking higher profit margins per unit sold. Given the disparity between the German and US market, it may well be that the sheer amount of profit BMW makes in the much larger US market is used to subsidize pricing of BMW's sold in Germany. Imagine that!
OK, my last post regarding this matter, because again you fail to back your false arguments with numbers.

In 2010, BMW sold most of its cars where: Right, in Germany. 266,009 units, to be precise. Followed closly by the second largest market: USA, with 265,757 units sold. China coming in as third with 168,998 cars sold. The fourth largest market btw. is another European country: UK, with 157,312 units sold. (source: www.BMWGroup.com)

All of the last named 3 alone pay more for the same car (again taxes and import duties left aside, converted to EUR) as US buyers.

So please stop trying to convince others the U.S. market isn't in any way subsidized by other countries.
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      04-25-2011, 12:02 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante View Post
OK, my last post regarding this matter, because again you fail to back your false arguments with numbers.

In 2010, BMW sold most of its cars where: Right, in Germany. 266,009 units, to be precise. Followed closly by the second largest market: USA, with 265,757 units sold. China coming in as third with 168,998 cars sold. The fourth largest market btw. is another European country: UK, with 157,312 units sold. (source: www.BMWGroup.com)

All of the last named 3 alone pay more for the same car (again taxes and import duties left aside, converted to EUR) as US buyers.

So please stop trying to convince others the U.S. market isn't in any way subsidized by other countries.
AFAIK, the M brand has to be a financially profitable operation. The AG numbers do not prove either way whether BMW is or isn't using profit from global business to offset business costs in the US market. However, more importantly, M brand is an entity that must be profitable or come under the ax.

And it is M, M3 pricing specifically, that we are talking about. While BMW AG doesn't release model/market specific data, it does release M brand data. Based on the quoted passage below, we can know that...

#1 market for M cars = USA (42.7% of global M brand cars)
#2 market for M cars = Germany (10.7% of global M brand cars)

If there is any "subsidizing" of prices in a particular market, and I'm skeptical that there is, which operation do you think is more profitable to M brand and BMW AG as a whole; the German M market or the US M market?

I rest my case.

Quote:
The 14.2 percent global growth in new car registrations posted by the BMW AG subsidiary last year bears witness to the enduringly strong fascination exerted by these high-performance sports cars. The production phase-out of the BMW M5 and BMW M6 models was more than compensated for by a consistently high demand for the BMW M3 and the newly introduced all-wheel-drive models BMW X5 M and BMW X6 M. Yet again the BMW M3 demonstrated its status as the most popular ambassador for the M ethos. Worldwide, 5,729 units of the BMW M3 Coupé were sold, to which were added 2,544 units of the BMW M3 Convertible and 1,843 BMW M3 Saloons. Sales of the BMW X5 M and BMW X6 M totalled 2,778 and 3,082 respectively.

The most important single market in 2010 was once again the USA, where overall BMW M car sales rose by more than 6 percent to 6,821. The number two sales region, as before, was the German domestic market with sales of 1,716 cars, followed by Britain and Northern Ireland with 1,264 units.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=483903
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      06-03-2011, 05:24 PM   #59
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love this car!! love the color
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      06-03-2011, 05:29 PM   #60
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Finally the M3 will get its reputation of a sport coupe back . It's like seeing a 4-door Corvette . It'd be painful. Ha ha.
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      06-03-2011, 09:02 PM   #61
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I'm totally shocked.
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      05-20-2012, 08:05 PM   #62
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Wasn't sold as the GTS Sedan but meets the description.

As far as I can tell, I got a USA version. Can anyone tell me if they have seen or heard of an 2011 M3 Sedan Interlagos Blue, factory 20-vane black rims, ZCP, 7-spd MCT, that hits 180mph out of the showroom floor?
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      05-20-2012, 08:12 PM   #63
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As far as I can tell, I got a USA version. Can anyone tell me if they have seen or heard of an 2011 M3 Sedan Interlagos Blue, factory 20-vane black rims, ZCP, 7-spd MCT, that hits 180mph out of the showroom floor?
Nice car. But it's a regular M3, only difference is you have black wheels. Probably painted after?

Welcome to the forum.
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      05-20-2012, 09:32 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdog4199
As far as I can tell, I got a USA version. Can anyone tell me if they have seen or heard of an 2011 M3 Sedan Interlagos Blue, factory 20-vane black rims, ZCP, 7-spd MCT, that hits 180mph out of the showroom floor?
If that's a ZCP why does it have 220 wheels?
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      05-21-2012, 12:45 AM   #65
mshab356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Funny how our government chooses what it needs to protect us from and what it doesn't.

U.S. Regulations = FAIL.

Cheers,
e46e92


Let's be real here, most of what the US government does is fail.
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