GPS based Lap Timers

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Jaypod

I see you finally caught on - that's why a bring you to the track!

P.S. Other posters, thanks for the good info here.

[doba_s]

Originally Posted by M3V8Driver

The problem with timers that rely on track-side beacons is, at least if you're like me, that you drive home at the end of the day only to realize you left the beacon and tripod standing by the track

I've done this countless times, even when I leave myself a note as a reminder to pick it up!

Originally Posted by von_zoom

That is almost as bad as arriving home only to discover no race car is on the trailer
Happy holidays all.
vz

it sounds like me ...

[Defjam]

Originally Posted by cchan

The iPhone only samples GPS locations about 1x per second and the built-in antenna isn't the most accurate, so be aware of those limitations. Apps like Harry's give a good taste of data acquisition though, especially for the price. I have a G2X system, but if I was going the lowest cost route, that would be the one I would use.

Hi all. New to these forums. I wanted to chime in and say I've used Harry's on the iphone mounted to the window. It worked fine for slower laps (rain day on Saturday) but on Sunday it just didn't keep up. It looks like they continue to develop the system and the new versions use external GPS devices like the TomTom. I went ahead and bought the TomTom window mounted GPS for the iPhone and i'm going to give it a test at TWS in a couple of weeks. I'll post my findings.

Here are some notes from Harry's site regarding GPS and accuracy.

http://web.me.com/hschlangmann/LapTi..._Accuracy.html

http://web.me.com/hschlangmann/LapTi...atibility.html

[lucid]

Originally Posted by jml

I really encourage you to consider something more advanced than a lap timer. Being able to see velocity vs. position on the track and multiple laps overlayed helped me a lot when learning to drive faster. It was probably had the biggest impact on helping me find the last couple of seconds on my fastest lap time, combined with video it's even better because it documents you experimentation with different lines and cadances. Driving to increase your lap times with a traditional timer is only going to frustrate you with only the lap time as an input. Most people get slower at first because they start deliberately driving "harder" vs. faster. When that happens, having the data to tell you what you are doing wrong is super helpful.

The G2X is the best unit I've tried, though the software is not as easy to use or feature rich as the Traqmate. The thing that makes it better is its accuracy and simplicity while in the car. I found lap times data comparable even spanning months, where as the traqmate is so sensitive to drift and clean GPS data that I found it nearly impossible to compare data week to week. I ended up selling my traqmate because it got to the point that the it was not worth my time trying to get all the data cleaned up and lined up while in between run sessions, plus the video integration still has some bugs that make it hard to align the video with the data unless you turn everything while on the track at speed. I'm a stickler for accuracy because 0.1 second difference in a corner is where you build improvements.

There are some new units coming out (AiM has the first one) that combine video capture with data capture in the same unit, more expensive, but hopefully a better overall experiance. I've spent a lot of time pouring through data over the past 5 years and using it as a tool to helpself and students. Let me know if there is any way I can help you.

Kind of an old post/thread, but I am curios about the new products you reference above. Can you articulate which ones you are referring to?

Also, I was just on the racelogic site, and they seem to have solid systems. Their "light" system with integrated video seems to be around ~$1600, which includes a camera, but the cheapest in-car display module is another $650, which seems very expensive for what it is.

http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php/buy-online/prices

[Richbot]

The race technology DL-1 in my SM was really easy to use, but unless you pair it with a DASH from race technology you're not going to get in-car. It has the advantage of having very accurate accelerometers while still having the ease of use. Just need a compact flash card, a GPS antenna, and a 12v source (comes with a cigarette lighter adapter) and you're good to go. Best when the box is mounted close to the center of gravity but you can put it anywhere that's level, in an M3 I'd use the trans tunnel between the rear seats and run the antenna up to the roof through the passenger door.

The simplest system that sets up in-car timing (and predictive lap time, which is a fun feature) is probably the Traqmate. Very popular amongst SM racers because of its simplicity and the predictive feature is very useful in qualifying.

If I were instructing for you, I'd make you deactivate anything that gives you in-car lap times. Timing, even just for the private use of the student, can make a big, big difference in insurance premiums for the event organizer if the insurance company finds out about it. You can probably make a case for looking at the GPS and accelerometer data as a learning tool, but in-car timing is a tricky issue. It's also the wrong thing to focus on at a track day. Drive well, and the speed will happen as a natural consequence.

The system in my current racecar is all STACK, which is beacon-based. Not for the faint of wallet though.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by lucid

I was about to pull the trigger on traqmate, but then ran into jml's not so favorable review...

I have a time trial competition license with COM sports club (a local NE org), and when I go out with them, I register under the licensed group, so insurance is not an issue, and an in-car display is very useful (I just have a beacon based-system), but not informative enough, so that's why I'm asking. I'll probably go into GTS racing next season, and I hope to leverage a better system in that context as well.

Yeah, I didn't realize how old this thread was until later, I was bringing it up for the OP's benefit.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Yeah, I didn't realize how old this thread was until later, I was bringing it up for the OP's benefit.

I deleted my post when I realized you were responding to the OP. Anyway, I am still somewhat suprised by jml's not so favorable traqmate review...

[1MORELAP]

I am leaning towards VBOX Mini.

[jml]

Originally Posted by lucid

I deleted my post when I realized you were responding to the OP. Anyway, I am still somewhat suprised by jml's not so favorable traqmate review...

Here is what I am talking about, notice on the G2X (below) that the data is VERY much aligned. (All data from TWS in my E90)



On the traqmate (below), similar data, but out of alignment between laps (sat vs sunday). This is caused by drift, and was explained to me to be something that is "sometimes" normal by the tech support at traqmate. We tried different GPS loctions, different receivers, different main units. Same results. Pretty frustrating when you are used to the accuracy of the G2X unit, which was flawless IMO, except for the usability of the software.

[jml]

Originally Posted by lucid

Kind of an old post/thread, but I am curios about the new products you reference above. Can you articulate which ones you are referring to?

Also, I was just on the racelogic site, and they seem to have solid systems. Their "light" system with integrated video seems to be around ~$1600, which includes a camera, but the cheapest in-car display module is another $650, which seems very expensive for what it is.

http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php/buy-online/prices

Here are the two I was talking about

http://www.smartycam.com/on-board-camera.htm


http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php...ideo-vbox-lite

I guess I should probably buy both and compare...

[lucid]

Originally Posted by jml

Here are the two I was talking about

http://www.smartycam.com/on-board-camera.htm


http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php...ideo-vbox-lite

I guess I should probably buy both and compare...

Thanks for taking the time to illustrate the drift issue. You also mentioned that you ran into some issues with video integration with traqmate. I poked around their website, which is poorly designed IMO, and can't really tell if video and GPS and other data are being overlayed and recored to traqmate's memory in real-time, or if they are recoreded seperately (traqmate and camcorder memory) and then integrated with a PC using their software. In other words, do you just download a single session file which already contains everything and is ready to be watched/analyzed, or do you need to go home and put video and data together? Anyway, I guess I can call them up and ask.

I wasn't aware of the smartycam system. Thanks for bringing that up. It seems well integrated, and $999 gets you video and basic GPS info in one package. I can't see an dash lap display accessory though.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/gro...D=AIMSMARTYCAM

Vbox does "seem" to build higher end systems, but they are pricy. A "lite" system with dash display will run $2250+.

http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php/buy-online/prices

[jml]

Originally Posted by lucid

You also mentioned that you ran into some issues with video integration with traqmate.

The issue is that when you turn on the system, the main unit triggers the video recorder to start (chasecam), which records to a separate mpeg data file on a separate system/flash card, but the data logging does not start at the same time. So, what you end up with intermittently is that the video is totally out sync with the data. Sometimes it would not stop recording, so you get an hour or two of it looking at the garage. Most other times I found it frustrating as an advanced driver who is looking for minute and precise differences in line vs. velocity - which it was not able to help with.

Thought I still believe if the video sync worked and all the accuracy issues were gone, the traqmate software is the best. Video-gps integration in general for learning is a killer app. Racepak has video integration with chasecam now as well, but I have not tried it.

[lucid]

Has anyone used this bluetooth receiver with an iphone app such as Harry's Laptimer? This is supposed to operate at 10Hz. I don't know about its positioning accuracy though.

http://www.qstarz.com/Products/GPS%2...T-Q818XT-F.htm
http://web.me.com/hschlangmann/LapTi...page/Home.html

[mastek]

I used trackaroo's trackmaster (android OS) -- and it worked fairly well (for a $5 app).
The GPS acquisition was the biggest issue ...but someone said they bought an external BT GPS module and it improved enough to use it reliably.

[lucid]

I narrowed my decision to two options:

1. Vbox lite from racelogic. They are currently running a special for a 10Hz GPS, 2 cameras, 2 mics turn-key kit for $2100.

http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php...=article&id=61

2. DL1 + Video4 from race technology. Comes with 5Hz GPS, 2 cameras, 1 mics for $2199. I'd rather get something with at least 10Hz GPs, and they have an upgrade option for 20Hz GPS at $2399. This does not come with in car display.

The cool thing about this is that you can get a complete dash replacement (DASH2) with it, which I want for the E30 M3. I suspect that would bump the price for the 20Hz setup to more like $3100 (I need to find out for sure), which is getting real pricy. You can get a small display instead of a full dash for less.

http://www.race-technology.com/dl1_v...e_8_30607.html

Both systems offer channels for acquiring data other than GPS and video data.

Traqmate is coming out with a new system, but I'd rather not pay $2k to see if the issues outlined by jml above persist.

Any feedback from folks who might have used these systems would be appreciated. I am especially interested in usability issues in terms of reliability and consistency. I don't want to mess with an awkward acquisition system at the track to make things work. I am fine with system complexity as long as it operates reliably once it is setup to do what you want it to do.

I'd also rather not do any post processing on the video, and would like to be able to walk away with a memory stick that has everything processed for detailed analysis as well as casual viewing (I think both of the systems above do that).

[Jaypod]

Hey Lucid - I pulled the trigger on the Vbox lite late last year, I unfortunately have not been to the track since then. I only set it up briefly to check it out. Hopefully I will get to the track in April once it gets a little warmer around here!

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Jaypod

Hey Lucid - I pulled the trigger on the Vbox lite late last year, I unfortunately have not been to the track since then. I only set it up briefly to check it out. Hopefully I will get to the track in April once it gets a little warmer around here!

It looks like a really nice unit, and the price is right for the bundle. If it wasn't for the dash option that goes with the DL1, I would have pulled the trigger on the vbox as well. Not sure if the dash is worth paying almost a grand more though...

[Jaypod]

Originally Posted by lucid

It looks like a really nice unit, and the price is right for the bundle. If it wasn't for the dash option that goes with the DL1, I would have pulled the trigger on the vbox as well. Not sure if the dash is worth paying almost a grand more though...

The dash does really look a neat feature, but I wonder if that is all it will be..neat. Since your car is a track car it would make more sense obviously.

If I was spending your money - I would definitely get the dash as well.....

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Jaypod

The dash does really look a neat feature, but I wonder if that is all it will be..neat. Since your car is a track car it would make more sense obviously.

If I was spending your money - I would definitely get the dash as well.....

Some of the sensors and displays in my E30 M3 are acting up, and need replacement. So, I'm thinking I might as well start from a clean slate and have what matters measured consistently and displayed in one place.

I would like to see water and oil temps, and fuel pressure for sure, and possibly AFR since the car is tuned for it closed loop (I have a gauge for that currently). The shift light feature on DASH2 is "neat," but I suspect it will offer limited utility--it's not at the right place. I played around with positioning my shift lights and the best place for it is above the dash actually.

The extra grand is considerable (unless I am spending your money).

[Jaypod]

Originally Posted by lucid

Some of the sensors and displays in my E30 M3 are acting up, and need replacement. So, I'm thinking I might as well start from a clean slate and have what matters measured consistently and displayed in one place.

I would like to see water and oil temps, and fuel pressure for sure, and possibly AFR since the car is tuned for it closed loop (I have a gauge for that currently). The shift light feature on DASH2 is "neat," but I suspect it will offer limited utility--it's not at the right place. I played around with positioning my shift lights and the best place for it is above the dash actually.

The extra grand is considerable (unless I am spending your money).

If you are going to replace your dash components anyways, this probably will start to make more sense as the cost of replacing the dash gets factored into the cost. I know I have seen some other Digital Dash solutons that also have logging capabilites, but I think they are fairly pricey and dont offer the video component as well.

It would be nice to hear some feedback from someone already running that set up. Shift lights above the dash would probably be better for me as well as I find a pretty much never look down at the cluster when at the track. (I dont have shift lights anyways since my car is 6MT)

I am looking forward to the video and logging capablities for this year, its going to be a great track season!

GL with your decision - let us know what you decide. I know it's pricey, but adding the dash2 in your case does look like a pretty good option to me.

Oh and if you need someone to test it, just send your car up to me.....

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Jaypod

If you are going to replace your dash components anyways, this probably will start to make more sense as the cost of replacing the dash gets factored into the cost. I know I have seen some other Digital Dash solutons that also have logging capabilites, but I think they are fairly pricey and dont offer the video component as well.

It would be nice to hear some feedback from someone already running that set up. Shift lights above the dash would probably be better for me as well as I find a pretty much never look down at the cluster when at the track. (I dont have shift lights anyways since my car is 6MT)

I am looking forward to the video and logging capablities for this year, its going to be a great track season!

GL with your decision - let us know what you decide. I know it's pricey, but adding the dash2 in your case does look like a pretty good option to me.

Oh and if you need someone to test it, just send your car up to me.....

I need to fix the OE dash and replace some of the sensors in the engine bay, so I figured I might just buy their dash and sensors instead...

I use this for a shift light:

http://store.gospecracing.com/shift-...ghtsystem.aspx

It works really well. Fully programmable. You can set the interveral and hence the sensitivity of the light progression.

Send me $30k, and I'll deliver the E30 M3 to your door.

[Jaypod]

Originally Posted by lucid

I need to fix the OE dash and replace some of the sensors in the engine bay, so I figured I might just buy their dash and sensors instead...

I use this for a shift light:

http://store.gospecracing.com/shift-...ghtsystem.aspx

It works really well. Fully programmable. You can set the interveral and hence the sensitivity of the light progression.

Send me $30k, and I'll deliver the E30 M3 to your door.

Thats a nice shift lite set up.

I said test, not buy....



I would love to pick up an E30 - I need to find a house with a much bigger garage though, I think I already have about 4 cars on the wishlist to fill it, not to mention the daily drivers