Why the DCT is Safer Than 6MT

[mmm def]

Originally Posted by fongpi

Did you carelessly gloss over my post before responding?

i didn't even finish it. Most people with 6mt experience wouldn't say such silly things.

[Mr. ///M3 RD]

It's a win win situation both sides (whatever you decide up on ... whatever floats your boat so to speak).

I say read first then drive it before you criticize one another. Half of you would be unhappy if BMW would give you only one choice.

First the Standard or Manual Transmission (MT), here read all about it ---> Just Click Here

Second the double-clutch transmission (DCT) Drivelogic, here read all about it ---> Just Click Here

Bottom Line ---> The slick double-disc clutch and 6-speed transmission are race quality.

Originally Posted by Mahzari

Amen. Out of Audi RS4/RS5, Mercedes C63, and BMW M3, the M3 is the only car with a choice of transmission so stop whining.

If you read my post properly you will note I only expressed my opinion. I recommend you choose your wording more carefully.

Originally Posted by fongpi

+1000000000

All you old farts on this thread that think vinyl sounds better probably also prefer 6mt. I wouldn't be surprised if you have an old projection tv in your living room and posted using a pentium computer. A new day has come upon us. Embrace it!!

DCT is better. CASE CLOSED.

Actually I am an old fart and I'm not a shame to admit it. No worries time passes very quickly, so sooner then later you be an old fart too

As for TV I have a home entertainment that would blow your mind, computers I have 5 and 4 of them are Mac's. Closed my business only last year at 74 hope you make it to that ripe old age and still enjoy a masterpiece like the M3 like I do no matter what transmission you may have on the floor.

I am an old fart and I approve of this message

[M3garage]

Originally Posted by AwesomeBMW2

Lots of idiots in this thread, huh? OP is a moron. The guy who said just keeping the brake slammed and letting ABS handle the rest is an even bigger idiot.

Lol thank you. I agree

[Mr. ///M3 RD]

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

There are many moments when I wish I had the DCT... especially on the track. Shifting is a big variable on the track, with the DCT you can focus more on your line, or the car in front of you.

I have to agree, I felt the same way quite often when I drove my former two MT M3's ... I am just thinking

On the three series BMW now has the DCT as the standard and the Manual as an option I wonder why? ... From a safety point of view I would not be surprized if the auto industrie in 15 or 20 years from now no longer offers a Manual Transmission ... just think of

A) Banning use of cell phones in cars
B) Banning texting on mobile devices in cars
C) Banning smoking in cars ... (in some parts of the world)

Some busybody or group will come up and declare the MT unsafe some day more stupiter things have happened in the past

EDIT ... Added post from another MT verses M-DCT thread ~ I actually like the post below (from the other thread - not this one here).

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

If you really want to have fun, to feel like you are fully engaged and one with the car, turn traction control off instead of giving up the DCT. The transmission is one aspect of the driving experience and just because you are rowing your own gears doesn't make it more engaging for the overall driving experience. Now you want to talk about taking away from the fun, DSC takes away ALL the fun, MDM takes away MOST of the fun. You want to feel like a real driver, you want to feel like you are actually driving (man handling) the car, DSC OFF, not oh I drive a 6SPD.

Mods:
Wheels/Tires:
OEM 18" Style 219/ Michelin Pilot Sport PS2, 245F/265R
Suspension: Eibach Pro-Kit Springs w/ e36 M3 bumpstops
Engine/Drivetrain Modifications:
AA Green Filter
AA Pulley
Performance Friction front BBK
Exhaust: Akrapovic Evolution

As the ///M gods intended...
DCT - S5
DSC - OFF
EDC - SPORT

///M philosophy is technology based, the M-DCT is a big part of what makes an e92 M3. That is why I bought this car the way it is. We all got our cars for different reasons but there are much better manual transmissions out there. Just saying.

[pharmdphd98]

Originally Posted by fongpi

OMFG REALLY?!?!? You remind me of the scene in that movie Click where that punkass kid asks Adam Sandler what kind of an audio system he has in his car and then follows with "my father's is a Bose," and then Adam Sandler says: "what your father's blows?" and then peels out. You stupid ignorant ancient dinosaur motherfucker. LOL. You make me laugh.

Read this. Who is the stupid ignorant ancient dinosaur? I won't even use the same juvenile words you added to the end of your sentence.

Vinyl records are making a rapid comeback
May 18, 2012, 8:28 a.m. CDT
McClatchy/Tribune - MCT Information Services
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. _ Cam Bentley walked into a Fort Lauderdale record store this dreary afternoon, head nodding to Michael Jackson's "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough," streaming from iPod to headphones. She walked past the CDs to the Soul section of the vinyl department _ stacks and stacks of LPs stuffed between Alternative and Blues _ on an earnest hunt for the same song on wax.

A daughter of the digital age, Bentley only discovered the joy of vinyl a year or so ago after she wandered into a retro record store in Tallahassee, where she was finishing up at Florida A&M University. She had an uncle's turntable at home, so the journey back to the analog era was just a matter of finding a favorite artist's 12-inch. And then, among the crates of albums. she found another Jackson album, "Thriller," its iconic cover featuring the star lounging in a dapper white suit and black shirt.

Bentley, 23, already was in love with chapters of music made before she was born. Now, she's been wooed further by the crackle and pop and warmth of vinyl's storied history.

"I listened to that album and that was it. I love that you can hear everything on an album. Somehow you feel like you are listening to the real thing," says Bentley, who is military-bound and makes regular trips to Radio-Active Records in Fort Lauderdale in search of albums by the Dazz Band, Heatwave and Stevie Wonder. "Sometimes I feel like I was born in the wrong decade."

Like a bygone artist, the black disc _ once the domain of purist deejays and nostalgic baby boomers who never let go, and the enduring force behind indie record stories _ has made a comeback, now enjoyed by hipsters and youngsters who grew up grooving to sounds on little gadgets but seem willing to set aside technology for more authentic moments with music. They are attracted to the tactile experience of the treasure hunt, of plucking through stacks for a particular title, of absorbing the cover art, of removing the sleeve, of gently coaxing the needle into the groove and anticipating the first promising seconds of sizzle.

And it's not just the vintage stuff that is luring music lovers to record stores. Contemporary artists from Adele to Lady Gaga are pumping out new music on vinyl, often with a download included. And other artists are reissuing their greatest hits on vinyl.

Last year, record purchases were at a two-decade high, with unit sales at 3.9 million, a 36 percent jump over 2010, according to Nielsen SoundScan. Though still a fraction of overall sales of CDs and MP3, vinyl sales have grown annually since 2005.

"So many people are reacting to the tactile experience of walking into a store, picking up a record, touching it, going home and listening to it, really feeling the music. Vinyl offers a personal experience, like buying books at a bookstore," says Lauren Reskin, owner of Sweat Records, a groovy haunt in Miami's Little Haiti. "There's always been a fan base for vinyl, but now the home listener runs the gamut, from boomers to kids. And what they want to listen to is across the board."

So every week, Reskin _ who calls the LP revival a "happy accident" _ can count on music listeners to enter the wonderfully eclectic store, wander the displays and pick up Nas' "Illmatic," or Bob Dylan's "Highway 61 Revisited," or Belle Sebastian's "If You're Feeling Sinister." Or anything recorded by Radiohead and Miles Davis.

First introduced in 1948, vinyl was for years the main format for popular music. After three decades of dominance, it receded into the shadows of first cassette tapes, then compact discs and digital file formats. But since the turn of the century, even as the music industry wobbled under the weight of free downloading, vinyl steadily marched back onto the pop culture radar. Now, vinyl and the venerable record player are everywhere, sold on mainstream shelves like Urban Outfitters. Badges of cool, images of turntables and album covers are on T-shirts, wallpaper, art.

In March, during the Season Five premiere of "Mad Men," the series set in the 1960s, Megan Draper covered "Zou Bisou Bisou" at husband Don's surprise 40th birthday party. The show's rendition of Gillian Hill's original 1961 song immediately became available on seven-inch red and black vinyl.

The Miami Art Museum is hosting an exhibit with nearly 100 works celebrating the record. "The Record: Contemporary Art and Vinyl," open through June 10, explores the LP within the context and history of contemporary art, using sculptures, drawings, paintings, photos and videos.

"The vinyl has become visible in pop culture because it has a certain cache, it's a symbol of survival and an earlier time and it has a story," says Charles McGovern, an associate professor of American Studies at the College of William & Mary in Virginia and former curator of American culture at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History. "We listen to music with our ears but also our eyes and other senses. The vinyl is so much more than a storage container for sound."

Sean Kayes opened Radio-Active Records, then called CD Collector, in Pompano Beach, Fla., 16 years ago. He moved the shop to Fort Lauderdale and last winter, opened in a shopping strip along U.S. 1 in the city not far from the former location. Over the years, his inventory has shifted.

"Back in early 2000s, I had a small collection of albums, but mostly CDs in the store. We would play the albums, anything from R.E.M. to Sly and the Family Stone to The Smiths. And I noticed that the more vinyl we played, the more vinyl we sold. Back then, the kids, 10 or 12 years old, would come in and watch us play and for them it was eye popping, cool, maybe even their first time seeing it," he said.

Then, in 2003, a woman walked in the store and sold Kayes her husband's collection of 2,500 LPs, mostly Top 40 stuff. He instantly had an inventory and soon after, a faithful following among vinyl fans. Now the collection crosses genres, from disco to trance to rock to rap. Prices range from maybe $1 for a decent-condition Johnny Mathis to $100 plus for an early pressing of Miles Davis' "Kind Of Blue."

When he opened in 1996, the inventory mix of CDs to LPs was 70 to 30. Now: 20 to 80. That broad shift to vinyl became the savior for many small, independent record stores and has been celebrated in a national campaign called Record Store Day.

"I think the main reason the vinyl is so popular now is that it is a more authentic document of what the artist produced. People are excited by the cover, which is really a 12-by-12 piece of art. And they are excited by the way an album offers an intimate way to experience music," says Kayes. "I don't see this as a passing trend."

Walter Rivera's introduction to vinyl was listening to a New York radio station where they played an intoxicating mix of old school and hip hop LPs: James Brown; Jay-Z; Mobb Deep. He started collecting three years ago. His first LPs were a gift from his parent's trove and included records by Hector Lavoe and Willie Colon.

"I was listening to their music and then I started shopping for my own, looking mostly for 1980s and 1990s hip hop and freestyle and 1960s to 1980s rock," said Rivera, 24, a Miami Dade College student.

He made his first purchase in 2009 at Yesterday and Today Records in Miami: Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of the Moon." Now he is on the hunt for classics by the Beastie Boys and Led Zeppelin and LL Cool J.

"I love everything about vinyl. The sequencing of the music, that artwork, the old school flavor," says Rivera. "Not taking away from the digital era, but vinyl is where everything started. It represents the essence of music."

___

(c)2012 The Miami Herald

[stefan]

This a really bizarre thread. Rear ending people is the result of lack of attention, and that's the most common type of collision.

Most manual drivers instinctively clutch+brake on emergency stops. Hitting someone has nothing to do with the transmission. If anything 6mt is safer because it keeps the driver more involved in the act of driving.

[Rich_Jenkins]

Dangit I am so subscribing to this thread.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by fongpi

+1000000000

All you old farts on this thread that think vinyl sounds better probably also prefer 6mt. I wouldn't be surprised if you have an old projection tv in your living room and posted using a pentium computer. A new day has come upon us. Embrace it!!

DCT is better. CASE CLOSED.

DCT is quicker and easier to use for a novice driver. this doesnt equate to better. serious drivers, yes i said it, want a greater connection with their car and being as involved as you can be is how that is achieved. i gladly sacrifice 0.3 sec to 60 for that connection and involvment. classic case of young kid thinking he knows more than he does and unwilling to take the knowledge and expertise of those who actually do know better.

[jqsmooth]

Originally Posted by Alter Peter

Actually I am an old fart and I'm not a shame to admit it. No worries time passes very quickly, so sooner then later you be an old fart too

As for TV I have a home entertainment that would blow your mind, computers I have 5 and 4 of them are Mac's. Closed my business only last year at 74 hope you make it to that ripe old age and still enjoy a masterpiece like the M3 like I do no matter what transmission you may have on the floor.

I am an old fart and I approve of this message

You need not justify/explain anything to such childishness. I really hope that I do make it to your age, and be able to enjoy the likes of M3(multiple in your case). I for one don't think that newer is always better. I used to have an old computer I used through grad school from 01-05 that had 8 gbs of memory. It ran Windows 2000. Used it until I needed more storage space. Got Vista and that was just garbage. DCT may be a marvel, but I wouldn't have bought the M3 if it did not offer the MT option. That's what I wanted to learn for the longest time. Talking about safety? I haven't been focused on driving since when I first learned to drive because a small mistake means big money with this car. I still can't drive and eat a hamburger though. At least not yet...

[mdosu]

die thread die

[Mr. ///M3 RD]

Originally Posted by mdosu

die thread die

Why ? ... (my favourite question ) don't you find it highly entertaining if nothing else?

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Sticking to the topic of straight line emergency braking in an M3:
So you are saying is that you can "threshold brake" for a shorter braking distance than the ABS can do when fully activated?
If so you are completely deluded.

In fact, he is mostly correct.

If you can consistently threshold brake, you will lose more speed per unit of time.

Reason: With ABS, you periodically lose braking effectiveness as the tires begin to slip, then lose braking effectiveness as the system backs off.

Of course, threshold braking is not only driver skill dependent, it's also somewhat dependent on each vehicle's specific braking system. Some cars are easier to threshold brake than others.

Another fact: From, say, 25 mph and under, full lockup will stop you the quickest. Of course, you can't steer under full lockup conditions.

Bruce

[US///M3]

The DCT is like a fly by wire airplane on auto pilot does everything right. The MT is like flying a Piper Cub.
Flying a Cub is real flying and more rewarding....

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

In fact, he is mostly correct.
If you can consistently threshold brake, you will lose more speed per unit of time.
Reason: With ABS, you periodically lose braking effectiveness as the tires begin to slip, then lose braking effectiveness as the system backs off.

Maximum tyre grip during deceleration is produced when a tyre has a certain amount of slip - the optimum amount of slip varies with several factors but IIRC is somewhere in a range of 10 to 20%.
The M3s ABS at full activation is adjusting the slip rate between 0 and its target slip rate (the actual rate varies but say 10%) at around 15 to 20 times per second on each wheel. If you threshold brake an M3 (with ABS enabled) then you are braking with less slip and thus less deceleration.
It may be possible to brake in a marginally shorter distance in a M3 with ABS disabled but if the ABS is enabled then maximum pedal pressure will produce the maximum deceleration.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by fongpi

+1000000000

All you old farts on this thread that think vinyl sounds better probably also prefer 6mt. I wouldn't be surprised if you have an old projection tv in your living room and posted using a pentium computer. A new day has come upon us. Embrace it!!

DCT is better. CASE CLOSED.

......

You went too far over your head there bud. Please stop while you're still ahead ( not even by much )

Vinyl is still the best when it comes to audio quality depending on the type of gear you have to play it. If you're the type of guy that runs around with dre beats, or skullcandies, you surely don't deserve a BMW.

That being said, FLAC rips of vinyl is still the best portable media, but it's very rare nowadays . CD rips and Flac ( converted to WMA lossless for my CIC ) is more than enough to reach the limits of my audio gear.

Also what is wrong with a rear projection TV? We still have an old Sony Rear PJ 65" that costed quite a fortune. We also own a few LED-TV's, as well as the much better CCFL based 10bit 52" TV's that are frankly just better than an LED-TV. Now if you were to be hopeless and debate that OH, LED-TV's have 3D..... if you aren't watching 3D on a 120" projection screen in your home theater, you should just stop talking.

Ontopic here, you cannot compare a DCT to a 6MT, there is just no comparison. Both has its pros and cons. Personally I would lean towards the DCT as a newer driver, but there's no doubt about how much I want to drive a 6MT.

EDIT: I'll go back the N54 club now, don't want to step on the toes of the "M" guys.

[TTSam]

Originally Posted by chriszeh

DCT is quicker and easier to use for a novice driver. this doesnt equate to better. serious drivers, yes i said it, want a greater connection with their car and being as involved as you can be is how that is achieved. i gladly sacrifice 0.3 sec to 60 for that connection and involvment. classic case of young kid thinking he knows more than he does and unwilling to take the knowledge and expertise of those who actually do know better.

DCT is brilliant - but I cherish the ability my MT gives me to totally screw up a shift, mock and belittle me; and remind me I had better be paying attention.

Keeps my left leg in shape as well. Also great in the snow for control.

[Blotman]

Well, yeah, if you don't feel comfortable enough with your safety driving MT, then you've made the right decision in picking a DCT. Quite frankly, it's never been a concern to me and you might as well ask whether or not I think it would be safer for me to stay home than to go out and enjoy my M3.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Maximum tyre grip during deceleration is produced when a tyre has a certain amount of slip - the optimum amount of slip varies with several factors but IIRC is somewhere in a range of 10 to 20%.

Agreed, and should have been more specific about slip in my post. On today's street-legal sneakers, eight to ten percent slip is in the ballpark for best traction. Forget 20% unless you're ranging into race rubber - or even as much as 30-35% on drag slicks.

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

The M3s ABS at full activation is adjusting the slip rate between 0 and its target slip rate (the actual rate varies but say 10%) at around 15 to 20 times per second on each wheel.

You give ABS too much credit. First of all, today's ABS software is pretty good at measuring wheel-to-wheel variation, but not very good at all if all wheels are exceeding best-traction slip rates more or less together. Second, even if there is a variation in wheel rotational speeds, it needs to be more than a couple-three percent before the system decides it needs to go into action. My proof point on this is that one can go up or down on tire sizes front to rear, and you will typically not get into problems unless you start getting into more than at least 5% difference in rotational speeds, at minimum. Bottom line: There is a definite loss of traction before ABS kicks in, meaning you're well past optimum traction at that point. Combine that with perceptible time losses in the hydraulics in terms of activation and deactivation times, and overall braking is less effective than successful threshold braking.

And there's the rub. Successful threshold braking is almost impossible to do unless you're on track, and turn three is coming up for the 100th time today. On the street, with varying conditions and road surfaces, forget threshold braking and rely on good ol' ABS.

Talk to any track junkie, however, and they'll tell you they avoid activating ABS on track, because it lengthens stopping distances and lap times.

What ABS actually does for you is to give you good braking efficiency under most street conditions, and driver skill becomes unimportant.

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If you threshold brake an M3 (with ABS enabled) then you are braking with less slip and thus less deceleration.

As I've already explained, this is untrue.

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

It may be possible to brake in a marginally shorter distance in a M3 with ABS disabled but if the ABS is enabled then maximum pedal pressure will produce the maximum deceleration.

Again, I've explained why this is untrue.

With respect,

Bruce

[tlp]

^ Bruce Try This

[Sergei]

I can not believe the discussion! Like little children in a sandbox. If your skills is not enough to handle gears, put the DCT. It is just simple. So funny!

[Mr C]

Originally Posted by fongpi

Would you agree that the likelihood of rear ending someone is greater when driving a 6MT over a DCT in the M3?

Only if you are on a HILL and start rolling backwards and hit them because they are too close to you.

[fongpi]

Originally Posted by EvosM3

Wow at the idiocy of the OP. With some of the responses he gives, I can hardly imagine him being able to secure and hold a job that can pay him enough for an M3. I suppose I can conclude that he is around 16.5 years old and a little whiny bitch from San Fransicko.

Yeah well that's just like, your opinion, man...