2008 RS4 = 450 hp

[lucid]

Maybe they want to focus elsewhere. Maybe they did the analysis and concluded, rightly or wrongly, that the energy they would need to spend in making a profitable 100000 RS4 production run would yield more profit somewhere else? In the greater scheme of things 100000 cars is not a whole lot for these companies. A agree with Keto in that maybe what matters is that you just make "some" and that as long as you have that high performance version of your regular high volume car such as the A4, you have something to show around and strengthen the image of the real money maker and you are fine?

And, yeah, where are all those trolls when you really need them, ha?

[Keto]

Well, if BMW sells 100k M3's over say 5 years. 20k/year. If their average profit per unit is $1k (choosing a number at random), then that's $20 million a year which is not much in the grand scheme of things but I doubt anyone would turn it down.

Wish I knew what their profit was for each model. I'm sure it's a closely guarded secret, or I am too lazy to google it, or both.

[lucid]

Yep, but if you can turn a higher profit with the same amount of effort in another product line, then the choice would also be obvious unless there was a strategic reason for flooding the streets with M3s.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by ILC32

Who knows, but $89k is a lot of money for a A4.

Same can be said for the M3. Some people believe 70-80k is a lot for a 3 series. And M3s are not as exclusive as the limited production RS4s.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Am I the only one that doesnt view the RS Audi's as direct competitors to the standar M line?

For 17 years the M3 and S4 were direct competitors. Then Audi makes the RS4 and all of sudden the RS4 is now the competition and the S4 isnt? It appears to me that BMW's answer to Audis RS line is the CSL M3 and expected CSL M6.

In my view the direct competitor to the M3 from Audi is the S5 and S4. It always has been. How is this changed?

Jason

Audi has never been a "competitor"..!

The RS4 is audi's best and it a nice car, but not to the likes of the M3. Never has. It's is a sedan!




-Garrett

[carnuts3]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Am I the only one that doesnt view the RS Audi's as direct competitors to the standar M line?

For 17 years the M3 and S4 were direct competitors. Then Audi makes the RS4 and all of sudden the RS4 is now the competition and the S4 isnt? It appears to me that BMW's answer to Audis RS line is the CSL M3 and expected CSL M6.

In my view the direct competitor to the M3 from Audi is the S5 and S4. It always has been. How is this changed?

Jason

Before the RS4 (and upcoming RS5), Audi's only performance submission in this class was the S4 - but it really was never a direct M3 competitor - too heavy, not agile, numb steering, etc...but it was all Audi had. Now with the intro of the RS4 Audi has a direct challenger to the M3 (especially to the E90 M3 when it comes out). BTW, the lower tuned S4/5 with its 300+hp is in more direct competition with the BMW 335s. The product mix at Audi and what each indiv product competes against has changed.

[NaTuReB0Y]

Originally Posted by redmtclimber

why are so many people on this forum obsessed with the rs4? audi can give it 600 hp or do whatever the hell they want, it will still be an overpriced audi. i don't really see the point in constantly comparing the m3 to the rs4.

the same can be said about the M3.....an overpriced 3 series......

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by bobbo

Same can be said for the M3. Some people believe 70-80k is a lot for a 3 series. And M3s are not as exclusive as the limited production RS4s.

70 -80k??? Please tell me which 3 series is 70 - 80K?

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y

the same can be said about the M3.....an overpriced 3 series......

Please tell me how is the M3 overpriced?

[Keto]

Remember, when you think the M3 is overpriced, your only recourse is to buy a 911.

[Keto]

Originally Posted by bobbo

And M3s are not as exclusive as the limited production RS4s.

Yeah, that RS4 looks reeeeeal exclusive, looking so different from all 10 zillion A4's on the road.

Can we all just accept that a <$200k car only looks exclusive to people that aren't actually rich?

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by Keto

Can we all just accept that a <$200k car only looks exclusive to people that aren't actually rich?

[mkoesel]

One other thing about Audi: being under the same ownership as the company that owns both Lamborghini and Bentley, and also (and maybe more relevantly?) has board and family members sitting over at Porsche probably limits what they are realistically able to do. With so many high performance cars from other brands bookending all their more pedestrian sedans, it probably constrains what they can justify putting onto the market without stepping on too many toes.

Though, now, with the R8 out and about, who knows what the future might hold. Maybe Audi is planning a full "R" assault this time around? This is all pure speculation on my part of course.

[mjovic]

Originally Posted by Keto

Given the low volumes of RS cars produced, I wonder if the reason Audi doesn't do all the models at a time may be because they can't sell them in large enough quantities to justify the expense. BMW sold 90k e46 M3's and wants to sell 100k e92, how many RS4's have been sold? IIRC the US figure is 1k. Given the past dominance of the M brand Audi may think the market isn't there. If only the RS4 trolls were still around to give us some sales data...

They sold that many because the e46 M3's were attainable by a lot more people as they were sub $50K cars. Now there is talk that the MSRP MIGHT fall below $60K and that is enough to put it out of reach of say half of the previous owners who were reaching to begin with. If BMW can sell 50K of these cars they should be thrilled.

[mjovic]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Audi has never been a "competitor"..!

The RS4 is audi's best and it a nice car, but not to the likes of the M3. Never has. It's is a sedan!




-Garrett

Clearly....unlike the M3 sedan. You M3 fanboyz make me laugh. Get over yourselves.

[Keto]

Originally Posted by mjovic

They sold that many because the e46 M3's were attainable by a lot more people as they were sub $50K cars. Now there is talk that the MSRP MIGHT fall below $60K and that is enough to put it out of reach of say half of the previous owners who were reaching to begin with. If BMW can sell 50K of these cars they should be thrilled.

I am sure your knowledge of marketing exceeds that of BMW.

The people that were buying "sub 50k" (I am assuming you're just going off base price here, my 2004 M3 was 66k out the door with options & TTL) M3's can likely afford 60k base now -- have you heard of inflation? The people who can't afford 60k couldn't afford 46k (the base then) in 2001 either.

Hint: 46000 adjusted 4% (for inflation) each year for 7 years = $60532.86. Excelsior!

Way to resurrect a dead thread.

[mjovic]

Originally Posted by Keto

I am sure your knowledge of marketing exceeds that of BMW.

The people that were buying "sub 50k" (I am assuming you're just going off base price here, my 2004 M3 was 66k out the door with options & TTL) M3's can likely afford 60k base now -- have you heard of inflation? The people who can't afford 60k couldn't afford 46k (the base then) in 2001 either.

Hint: 46000 adjusted 4% (for inflation) each year for 7 years = $60532.86. Excelsior!

Way to resurrect a dead thread.

So by this math we can expect the next gen M3 to MSRP at around $76,592? That's just insane for a 3-series Bimmer any way you slice it. At some point the market simply will not pay for it and it will become a limited run production car. Here is a real example. In 2001 a base Toyota Camry CE 5MT was $17,675. By your math, today that car should MSRP at $23,259 adjusted by YOUR 4% inflation figure, but in reality it is only $18,570, a mere $895 more SEVEN YEARS LATER! The reason is there is a limit to what people are wiling to pay for a Toyota Camry and above that threshold people will end up looking elsewhere. The BMW M3, although much more desireable than a plain-Jane Toyota Camry does not escape this conundrum. Price it too high and it too will not sell. EUREKA!!!!!

[Keto]

"YOUR" 4% inflation figure? You must be the only person who can afford this car (my generous assumption) who doesn't comprehend inflation. The Camry is likely made for cheaper, as *everything* inflates at some point or another. Labor, materials, everything. Ever get a raise? Welcome to inflation. A savings account at 4% is required to break even -- you lose buying power when you hold money at a typical American bank's savings rate.

Seriously, get off the forums and go see a financial planner, or better yet, go buy that Camry.

The "threshold" you refer to rises also. Ever heard an old person mutter about the price of gas? There you go. I could fill my tank when I was in college (early 90's) for $12 bucks or so, now I enjoy $45-50 depending on the market. Welcome to the real world.

[mjovic]

Originally Posted by Keto

"YOUR" 4% inflation figure? You must be the only person who can afford this car (my generous assumption) who doesn't comprehend inflation. The Camry is likely made for cheaper, as *everything* inflates at some point or another. Labor, materials, everything. Ever get a raise? Welcome to inflation. A savings account at 4% is required to break even -- you lose buying power when you hold money at a typical American bank's savings rate.

Seriously, get off the forums and go see a financial planner, or better yet, go buy that Camry.

The "threshold" you refer to rises also. Ever heard an old person mutter about the price of gas? There you go. I could fill my tank when I was in college (early 90's) for $12 bucks or so, now I enjoy $45-50 depending on the market. Welcome to the real world.

I am aware of inflation. Thanks for attempting to enlighten me, though. You only succeeded in making yourself look like an ass. Re-read what you wrote and see how you completely missed my point.

[ChitownM3]

Simmer down Keto, you don't really understand inflation yourself. The inflation rate in the US hasn't been at 4% since 1991. In fact, over the past 7 years the average inflation rate was about 2.75%. Doesn't seem like much, but if you redo your math the 60.5K number seems quite inflated. With the actual inflation rate being 2.75% over the past 7 years the price of the M3 should be right around 55.8k. I would be ecstatic if it actually came out at this price, quite a bit cheaper than the 60.5k number you are calculating. Either way, much more is involed in the pricing of the car than inflation, the dropping value of the USD is really worrying me.

Source: http://www.miseryindex.us/irbyyear.asp

[Keto]

Originally Posted by ChitownM3

Simmer down Keto, you don't really understand inflation yourself. The inflation rate in the US hasn't been at 4% since 1991. In fact, over the past 7 years the average inflation rate was about 2.75%. Doesn't seem like much, but if you redo your math the 60.5K number seems quite inflated. With the actual inflation rate being 2.75% over the past 7 years the price of the M3 should be right around 55.8k. I would be ecstatic if it actually came out at this price, quite a bit cheaper than the 60.5k number you are calculating. Either way, much more is involed in the pricing of the car than inflation, the dropping value of the USD is really worrying me.

Source: http://www.miseryindex.us/irbyyear.asp

That's what happens when you don't look up stuff /eggonface. Albeit that's not misunderstanding inflation but rather being wrong about the actual rate. I prefer your math! At least my planning around 4% or so just will make my expected ROI's below the actual.

Mjovic, in the /sarcasm of my reply the point is simply that expectations of prices change. Telling me something will be overpriced 7 years from now at $76k is meaningless. Your point seems to be that the Camry price has not inflated significantly and we should expect that from BMW. I'd say that's fantasy, especially for a luxury marque.

Price expectations, as an aside, cut two ways. Great article from the NYT a year ago talks about how college enrollment goes up at many schools when they INCREASE prices:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/12/ed...12tuition.html
What does that have to do with this argument? People expect to pay more for luxury cars. All the badge whores would be upset if the average BMW and the average Toyota cost the same amount.

[ChitownM3]

Originally Posted by Keto

That's what happens when you don't look up stuff /eggonface. Albeit that's not misunderstanding inflation but rather being wrong about the actual rate. I prefer your math! At least my planning around 4% or so just will make my expected ROI's below the actual.

Mjovic, in the /sarcasm of my reply the point is simply that expectations of prices change. Telling me something will be overpriced 7 years from now at $76k is meaningless. Your point seems to be that the Camry price has not inflated significantly and we should expect that from BMW. I'd say that's fantasy, especially for a luxury marque.

Price expectations, as an aside, cut two ways. Great article from the NYT a year ago talks about how college enrollment goes up at many schools when they INCREASE prices:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/12/ed...12tuition.html
What does that have to do with this argument? People expect to pay more for luxury cars. All the badge whores would be upset if the average BMW and the average Toyota cost the same amount.

Totally agree with some of your points! Wal Mart has suffered recently because they are seen as "cheap" by many! Almost embarrising to shop at Wal-Mart. I agree, the Camary is an affordable entry level car and should be priced accordingly, while the M3 is a sports luxury car and should also be priced accordingly, and in this case, the price seems to range anywhere from 55K to 85K depending on the brand name.