DSG or Manual

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Well, you'd think so, but I'm not all that impressed with the shift quality on my MT E46 M3. An ACS short shifter and CDV deletion helped, but I've felt much slicker transmissions before. Pretty notchy and easy to hit wrong gear if you're in a hurry--and I've been driving Mts for 43 years.

Agreed.

For those of you who don't agree, go take an STI or an S2000 for a spin.

-Adam

[cntlaw]

Frankly, nothing I can control what tranny technology BMW will put into the new M3 except my golden patience of wait. I cannot drive something with a clutch in the foot pedals except a motobike, which means I will only buy the M3 if it comes with a SMGIII or DSG. I have big fears about BMW's marketing style and it seems they like to add some new stuff into a new car model every six month. I hate this kind of thing very much and don't want to pay 150K(here) for a M3 with SMGIII and 9 months later they come up with the rumour DSG. I don't care which (SMGIII / DSG) is better so long I am getting the 'strategic' tranny on the M3 then I will be very happy. I don't mind to wait two years, but just hope this group will tell me, will there be a strategic new tranny (except MT) that M3 will go for?
THX
t

[JEllis]

It is no secret that the BMW Motorsport division is going to SMG/DSG type tranny's as their choice. There is no doubt in mind that the new M3 will have an SMG/DSG tranny in the very near future and that it will be faster/sportier choice, not unlike the current M5.

Jason

[esquire]

Originally Posted by cntlaw

Frankly, nothing I can control what tranny technology BMW will put into the new M3 except my golden patience of wait. I cannot drive something with a clutch in the foot pedals except a motobike, which means I will only buy the M3 if it comes with a SMGIII or DSG. I have big fears about BMW's marketing style and it seems they like to add some new stuff into a new car model every six month. I hate this kind of thing very much and don't want to pay 150K(here) for a M3 with SMGIII and 9 months later they come up with the rumour DSG. I don't care which (SMGIII / DSG) is better so long I am getting the 'strategic' tranny on the M3 then I will be very happy. I don't mind to wait two years, but just hope this group will tell me, will there be a strategic new tranny (except MT) that M3 will go for?
THX
t

bmw has been very vocal about their intent to incorporate a DSG system in the new M3 to the exclusion of an SMG system. you have nothing to worry about. you can even find printed collateral on the topic published by bmw. the new transmission is called M-DCT (dual clutch transmission) and all signs point to a Spring 08 release.

[SteveRa]

DSG will be a sportier choice

There is nothing remotely sportier in massaging tiny paddles and generally doing/controlling less while driving. Nothing. There is a permeating impression that the DSG is the Viagra in the world of transmissions. You guys are lucky that it will be available without precsription.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SteveRa

There is nothing remotely sportier in massaging tiny paddles and generally doing/controlling less while driving. Nothing. There is a permeating impression that the DSG is the Viagra in the world of transmissions. You guys are lucky that it will be available without precsription.

speaking of prescription medication. prozac any?

[JEllis]

There is nothing remotely sportier in massaging tiny paddles and generally doing/controlling less while driving. Nothing. There is a permeating impression that the DSG is the Viagra in the world of transmissions. You guys are lucky that it will be available without precsription.

Well, except for the fact the DSG M3 will accelerate quicker, be faster around a track, and shares tranny technology from F1 race cars...your right.

Jason

[ruff]

I was speaking more on global terms with the MT being developed to it's potential. I completely agree with those who talk about BMW's notchy MTs. My 91 Accord MT is as slick or slicker than BMW's MTs. I read somewhere that Volkswagon's is now revising their DSG. I just think BMW's new DSG version is going to go through a lot of revisions in the next decade.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by chitown08

Haha, thats what my dad says. (even he finally got one recently) That is only one side however. And you can ignore your cell phone just like your home phone. (The button is even explicitly labeled "ignore")
On the other hand, you can make calls whenever, wherever. (emergencies) Basically, the cell phone can do everything the home phone can do, and some. At least keep one in the glovebox so that when you crash your M3 you can call for help...

I doubt I will ever have a landline.

You have BMW assist for that.

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by Epacy

You have BMW assist for that.

tru.

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by SteveRa

There is nothing remotely sportier in massaging tiny paddles and generally doing/controlling less while driving. Nothing. There is a permeating impression that the DSG is the Viagra in the world of transmissions. You guys are lucky that it will be available without precsription.

aww not this guy again...

u callin us impotent?

[JEllis]

I was speaking more on global terms with the MT being developed to it's potential. I completely agree with those who talk about BMW's notchy MTs. My 91 Accord MT is as slick or slicker than BMW's MTs. I read somewhere that Volkswagon's is now revising their DSG. I just think BMW's new DSG version is going to go through a lot of revisions in the next decade.

What you say is true. There is no doubt that there will be a progression in trannies as technology continues to build for autos. However, that being said, even the first gen DSG, no matter how crude compared to later versions, is going to be far better than any MT to date (for the average or even better than average heel and toer)... sad but true.

The DSG, sad to say, is going to give some of us reason enough to wait for our new M3's...

Jason

[ruff]

Originally Posted by Smoltz

Agreed.

For those of you who don't agree, go take an STI or an S2000 for a spin.

-Adam

I agree.

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Well, you'd think so, but I'm not all that impressed with the shift quality on my MT E46 M3. An ACS short shifter and CDV deletion helped, but I've felt much slicker transmissions before. Pretty notchy and easy to hit wrong gear if you're in a hurry--and I've been driving Mts for 43 years.

I agree. I just don't understand why the M boys can't develop or source out a slick shifting short throw MT. You don't hear Cayman and GT3 drivers crying out for DSG like transmissions to replace their MTs like you see with M drivers.

[JEllis]

You don't hear Cayman and GT3 drivers crying out for DSG like transmissions to replace their MTs like you see with M drivers.

When Porsche releases a DSG tranny, I think next year, you find that will proabably the tranny of choice.

DSG is going to change the auto tranny paradigm...its time for change...dont fear it.

Jason

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by JEllis

When Porsche releases a DSG tranny, I think next year, you find that will proabably the tranny of choice.

DSG is going to change the auto tranny paradigm...its time for change...dont fear it.

Jason

Lotta prophecies from you today, Nostradamus.

[03SG///M3]

Originally Posted by ruff

I agree.



I agree. I just don't understand why the M boys can't develop or source out a slick shifting short throw MT. You don't hear Cayman and GT3 drivers crying out for DSG like transmissions to replace their MTs like you see with M drivers.

When i test drove the Caymen i was not impressed to say the least with the transmission....way too much play in between gears and when in gear you can move the shifter from left to right about an inch. My X3 is much more enjoyable to shift than the Caymen IMO. I love the feel of my M3 shifter with the AS kit....very short.

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by SteveRa

There is nothing remotely sportier in massaging tiny paddles and generally doing/controlling less while driving. Nothing. There is a permeating impression that the DSG is the Viagra in the world of transmissions. You guys are lucky that it will be available without precsription.

How can F1 type technology (DSG) not be sporty. Less involved maybe, because there's no driver controlled clutch, but that does not equal less sporty.

I was at Summit Point raceway this last weekend with the BMW CCA. There were plenty of SMGs there. Quite sporty if you ask me.

I love manual trannies, but I also love the technology in the SMG/DSG.

[cntlaw]

Originally Posted by skierman64

How can F1 type technology (DSG) not be sporty. Less involved maybe, because there's no driver controlled clutch, but that does not equal less sporty.

I was at Summit Point raceway this last weekend with the BMW CCA. There were plenty of SMGs there. Quite sporty if you ask me.

I love manual trannies, but I also love the technology in the SMG/DSG.

+1
A MT is like a using simple calculator, you get it right if you are really good at it (at all times) know the right formula. A SMGIII/DSG is like a Excel Spreadsheet with pre-programmed forumula, sometime if my brain wants to take a rest or not want to repeat to do the same number of small steps for no surprises (e.g. in a traffic jam), I would use the Excel for less risk of mistakes.
Yes, everyone can decide to use a calculator or an Excel. For me, paying 150K for a M3, I would just love it to go with an advanced Excel Spreadsheet than a $2 calculator.
t

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by cntlaw

Frankly, nothing I can control what tranny technology BMW will put into the new M3 except my golden patience of wait. I cannot drive something with a clutch in the foot pedals except a motobike, which means I will only buy the M3 if it comes with a SMGIII or DSG. I have big fears about BMW's marketing style and it seems they like to add some new stuff into a new car model every six month. I hate this kind of thing very much and don't want to pay 150K(here) for a M3 with SMGIII and 9 months later they come up with the rumour DSG. I don't care which (SMGIII / DSG) is better so long I am getting the 'strategic' tranny on the M3 then I will be very happy. I don't mind to wait two years, but just hope this group will tell me, will there be a strategic new tranny (except MT) that M3 will go for?
THX
t

Rowbox FTW...! :rocks:




-Garrett

[swamp2]

Found this article on SMG vs MT for the E46 M3. It seems some of my previous thoughts and comments here on the board need some minor revision.

The .3-.4 seconds estimate of MT shifting times I quoted may have been a bit too slow. Looks like a good driver can consistently achieve under .3 sec, but only by a hair. It also seem that BMWs marketing machine has us all a bit confused by what an actual shift time is. They quote 80 ms for SMG but I think this is the movement of the gear lever by the hydraulics only not the entire shift. Looks like actual complete shift times (by a reasonable definition of a shift time) are at best 230 ms (.23 seconds). This along with launch control not being as good as a human make the MT car faster than the SMG for straight line tests! Still for twisties and outright track use the consistency of SMG is hard to beat.

Relevance to E92 M3 you ask? Heck I would still choose SMG over MT for the new M3 if it was the only offer. However, the picture continues to look great for M-DCT performance. The TOTAL shift time (without BMWs "friendly" SMG marketing of "shift times") does truly seem to be < 10 ms. Almost a total uniterruption of power flowing to the wheels. So again my argument about performance applies: every shift costs MT 1/4 of a second vs. effectively 0 for a DCT. If BMW can improve the M-DCT launch just a bit we will have a real winner for daily driver, straight line acceleration and track use.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by swamp2

The TOTAL shift time (without BMWs "friendly" SMG marketing of "shift times") does truly seem to be < 10 ms. Almost a total uniterruption of power flowing to the wheels. So again my argument about performance applies: every shift costs MT 1/4 of a second vs. effectively 0 for a DCT. If BMW can improve the M-DCT launch just a bit we will have a real winner for daily driver, straight line acceleration and track use.

measurements on the VW DSG come in at .03-.04 seconds per shift. and while the M-DCT shift times might be substantially shorter than a manual throw, characterizing its throw time as "effectively zero" is an overstatement. assuming a good manual throw spans .3 seconds, the DSG/DCT shift times would be 10-13% of manual throw times... still a substantial percentage.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Found this article on SMG vs MT for the E46 M3. It seems some of my previous thoughts and comments here on the board need some minor revision.

The .3-.4 seconds estimate of MT shifting times I quoted may have been a bit too slow. Looks like a good driver can consistently achieve under .3 sec, but only by a hair. It also seem that BMWs marketing machine has us all a bit confused by what an actual shift time is. They quote 80 ms for SMG but I think this is the movement of the gear lever by the hydraulics only not the entire shift. Looks like actual complete shift times (by a reasonable definition of a shift time) are at best 230 ms (.23 seconds). This along with launch control not being as good as a human make the MT car faster than the SMG for straight line tests! Still for twisties and outright track use the consistency of SMG is hard to beat...

As much as I love manual that can't be true. I did read the article and it's quite confusing and irritating. So I remembered an elder article in german "autozeitung" about the benefits of the "new" SMG III. That article did also show a chart comparing SMG II and SMG III. I tried to redo such a chart. If I do understand that right (original chart didn't have any shift times) the 65ms BMW states for the quickest shift are indeed for the entire shift! Don't know if anything went wrong on the test you mentioned!?

Best regards, south