Let's talk joy of driving: 6MT vs M-DCT

[enigma]

Originally Posted by southlight

I fully understand that these comments are annoying, but so are the the answers given on the same level. All I'm talking about whenever such discussions tend to become impertinent is respect. Seems like we can't respect each other's choice, can we?

I find it real interesting how quickly a comment like "Posts like these make me think the 6mt if the new Poser's car" can generate an outrage.

However, "DSG, DCT, SMG...blah blah blah, it's still an auto. Sure, it's not a standard automatic transmission, but you still have no control over the clutch. " while being factually wrong is no biggie.

There is a clear trend here. Those advocating DCT simply talk about how good it is and what it can do. While the MT crowd feel compelled to attack it and insult the drivers that choose it. I just though I would flip the tactics and see how the other side reacted for once.

Lets be completly clear on one thing. Choosing 6mt is choosing a slower and less performant car simply to have a lever to move and a pedal to push. If thats not style over substance I don't know what is.

[rai]

Originally Posted by enigma

I find it real interesting how quickly a comment like "Posts like these make me think the 6mt if the new Poser's car" can generate an outrage.

There is a clear trend here. Those advocating DCT simply talk about how good it is and what it can do. While the MT crowd feel compelled to attack it and insult the drivers that choose it. I just though I would flip the tactics and see how the other side reacted for once.

Lets be completly clear on one thing. Choosing 6mt is choosing a slower and less performant car simply to have a lever to move and a pedal to push. If thats not style over substance I don't know what is.

I never attacked the DSG in fact, I said how great the DSG was in the GTi I test drove and how it's probably faster than the MT (etc..)

I did say some may prefer the MT for a reason other than just it's 1/4 mile or track lap time. (ie fun to drive or feeling connected to the car more-so than a 2-pedal semi-MT).

I'm sure some people will prefer one over the other. But you feel inclined to dis people who prefer a MT and call the MT car a poser car. When in fact people who can't drive a stick shift CAN drive a DSG but not the other way around. It can be just a lazy option. I'm not saying it's bad but to say a person would pick a MT just to show off is insane and inflamitory.

To say the DSG is a lot faster than the 6MT has not even been proven, it's likely faster (slightly) but it won't change the M3 into a Bugatti.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by rai

I'm sure some people will prefer one over the other. But you feel inclined to dis people who prefer a MT and call the MT car a poser car. When in fact people who can't drive a stick shift CAN drive a DSG. It can be just a lazy option. I'm not saying it's bad but to say a person would pick a MT just to show off is insane and inflamitory. Same as me saying some people would buy if they don't know about 3-pedal. In fact many people in US could't drive a stick to save their lives.

I actually said after reading your post I was starting to think that 6mt was a style choice. That combined with you clear mis-understanding of the system leads me to think you have either never tried it or didn't take the time to learn the system. Thats ok but then don't start talking about what SMG/DCT cannot do when you don't know what you are talking about.

You show no desire to learn how it works but feel inclined to bash it based on your opinions formed from a lack of understanding.

Originally Posted by rai

To say the DSG is a lot faster than the 6MT has not even been proven. Also don't know the weight penalty of the DSG do you? Would you be as ga-ga over it if it weighed 100 more than the 6MT?

The weight was listed as about ~50lbs more than the manual. This will be more than offset by the gearing advantage, shift time advantage, and ability of the driver to left foot brake and keep both hands on the wheel.

[rai]

I have driven a GTi with DSG, I know fully well how a dual-clutch tranny works and not once did I say what a DSG or SMG could not do anything.

BTW, I have driven both F430 and Gallordo with SMG-type tranny.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by enigma

I find it real interesting how quickly a comment like "Posts like these make me think the 6mt if the new Poser's car" can generate an outrage.

However, "DSG, DCT, SMG...blah blah blah, it's still an auto. Sure, it's not a standard automatic transmission, but you still have no control over the clutch. " while being factually wrong is no biggie.

There is a clear trend here. Those advocating DCT simply talk about how good it is and what it can do. While the MT crowd feel compelled to attack it and insult the drivers that choose it. I just though I would flip the tactics and see how the other side reacted for once.

Lets be completly clear on one thing. Choosing 6mt is choosing a slower and less performant car simply to have a lever to move and a pedal to push. If thats not style over substance I don't know what is.

OK, so you call me and everybody else choosing MT a poseur. That's a serious insult and you know that.

You're right that there are bashing posts against DCT guys also, but if anybody comes up with "blah, blah, blah..." you can make up your mind on this. No matter if it is not knowing better or just for arrousing's sake, commenting is senseless. But when a highly valued member plays the poser card it's time to comment.

It's not true that DCT guys merely give their opinion whereas MT guys start to insult. Without having the time nor the notion to count which 'camp' made more bashing comments I tend to claim that it's on par.

I always appreciated your posts full of knowledge on cars and don't remember you becoming unobjective. Can really some comments be enough to diss all MT guys? Unbelievable. You won't see me countering your attack, maybe others will do, and that's just making things more annoying. You just can't complain about that no more, now you play a role in that.


Best regards, south

[enigma]

Originally Posted by rai

I have driven a GTi with DSG, I know fully well how a dual-clutch tranny works and not once did I say what a DSG or SMG could not do anything.

sorry, got you confused with the other guy bashing the system.

[drburton]

This thread really reflects poorly on the maturity of this forum. I think both transmissions have their place and its great that BMW is giving the consumer the right to choose. Either way, one isn't necessarily 'superior' to the other, it is completely up to the user. Yes the DCT is faster, but to those who like to use a manual that doesn't necessarily mean 'better'.

For me, I was planning to get the DCT b/c I thought it would be great to have on the track (my heel/toe is not very efficient). I took my Boxster S out of hibernation last week and it reminded me of the joy I get from a manual. Since 90% of my driving is not on a track, I think I will opt for the manual. I don't in any way look down on those who choose the DCT, it seems like a really great transmission.

Have some respect for other people's opinions and needs.

[skierman64]

The thread has gotten ridiculous. There will be posers driving both transmissions and there will be knowledgeable enthusiasts driving both transmissions. Your transmission type certainly doesn't change who you are as a person. For me, if the transmission type is good enough for arguably the most performance oriented marque in the world, Ferrari, then it's good enough for me.

[rai]

Originally Posted by enigma

sorry, got you confused with the other guy bashing the system.

OK

I'm just debating, I don't want to get anyone sore at me. But just for the sakeof argument, I don't think 3-pedal MT is done.

I do think it has some place one being cheaper at least in this application $2700 although that may be made up some in fuel savings, plus it's got more gears and more parts so it's not a surprise that it costs extra.

But I do think some people will pure and simple prefer a 6-MT. Also, being an oldster maybe in so many years the clutch will be a lost art (like you say a rotary phone) many people alive today have never used a rotary phone.

BUT

I don't think it's exactly the same as many people ENJOY working a clutch and it's not the same with a rotary phone since some people still enjoy taking pictures with film (rather than digital) even tho it's probable the digital is better, some of the joy or art could be lost in the modern computer world.

Also as I said some people enjoy to do something like walking. I do and try to walk every day. It does not mean I'm doing it to get anywhere, but rather as a recreation (ie. it's fun for me) so in that way it's possible people could pick the 'slower' and less high-tech option of a MT.

Also, some people prefer the simple (ie will it break in 4 years? IDK about the M-dual clutch since there is no data at least in BMWs hands with the highest RPMs ever for a DSG).

[enigma]

Originally Posted by southlight

OK, so you call me and everybody else choosing MT a poseur. That's a serious insult and you know that.

Perhaps its better to put it this way.

The 6mt is no longer the clear purist or enthusiast option it was last century. If getting the best performance out of the car is your goal, its simply the wrong choice. DCT is not an auto, its a manual with a vastly improved interface. It simply does what the old manual did but better.

So then why chose the manual? Really there are two options.

1: you like the interaction.

2: you want to appear to be a hardcore driver. This option is usually supported by posts that procede to bash people who dare chose anything else.

I have nothing at all against group #1. Some people like rotary dial phones, its a personal preference thing They do have that neat clicking thing going for them. Its the 2nd group that drives me nuts and I really don't want to lump everyone in there.

[GarryF]

Originally Posted by enigma

Perhaps its better to put it this way.

The 6mt is no longer the clear purist or enthusiast option it was last century. If getting the best performance out of the car is your goal, its simply the wrong choice. DCT is not an auto, its a manual with a vastly improved interface. It simply does what the old manual did but better.

So then why chose the manual? Really there are two options.

1: you like the interaction.

2: you want to appear to be a hardcore driver. This option is usually supported by posts that procede to bash people who dare chose anything else.

I have nothing at all against group #1. Some people like rotary dial phones, its a personal preference thing They do have that neat clicking thing going for them. Its the 2nd group that drives me nuts and I really don't want to lump everyone in there.

You missed out a few.

3. you like to know what gear you are in without taking your eyes off the road. (hud would be nice)

4. The manual is £2600 cheaper in the UK, that's quite a lot

5. The DCT is unproven, unreviewed and will most likely be trouble for the first year.

Right now if you have money to burn then go DCT, I live 70 miles from the dealer and don't really need something like that crapping out on me every second week until they get the software figured out in 6 months, the fact there are none at all in the public domain would concern me right now.

Shouldn't these posts be auto locked with a link to the 100 other arguments on the same subject, if you want DCT then get it, it'll most likely be pretty good, if you want 6MT then get it, it'll be guaranteed to be as good as any other manual bmw has made,

[rai]

Originally Posted by enigma

1: you like the interaction.

2: you want to appear to be a hardcore driver. This option is usually supported by posts that procede to bash people who dare chose anything else.

I hear you, when I see people pick a NSX or RX8 with auto-tranny even tho they were crippled (ie take off 20 HP or TQ off for an already low power car).

But you saying someone is a poser to pick a MT really is wrong IMO. It would be like me saying somebody wants to appear hard so they pick a GT3 or Z06 or GT2 or Viper (all cars thay only have a 3-pedal MT).

I mean if they are posers or not at least they are in real sports car not a SL Merceds (or other car that only comes with AT).

If somebody wants to appear hard they wouldn't necessarly pick a M3 in the first place (IMO).

[Keto]

Hey, at least this thread got to actual pro's and con's. Most just stop at the "Auto is for girls/MT pplz is old" argument.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by enigma

Perhaps its better to put it this way.

The 6mt is no longer the clear purist or enthusiast option it was last century. If getting the best performance out of the car is your goal, its simply the wrong choice. DCT is not an auto, its a manual with a vastly improved interface. It simply does what the old manual did but better.

So then why chose the manual? Really there are two options.

1: you like the interaction.

2: you want to appear to be a hardcore driver. This option is usually supported by posts that procede to bash people who dare chose anything else.

I have nothing at all against group #1. Some people like rotary dial phones, its a personal preference thing They do have that neat clicking thing going for them. Its the 2nd group that drives me nuts and I really don't want to lump everyone in there.

I never denied the performance advantages of DCT, obviously it's the faster option. Yes, I like the interaction and was glad that BMW decided to offer a MT for the M3. Option #2 never came to my mind and I'm still not fully convinced that such a group exists in this context. Have to say that some posts point in that direction, though.
Guess I must be glad you now accept the existence of group 1. Lucky me.


Best regards, south

[enigma]

Originally Posted by rai

If somebody wants to appear hard they wouldn't necessarly pick a M3 in the first place (IMO).

I was refering more to the "I'm awesome because I can drive a manual" crowd. They are out there. Perhaps I am more sensitive to the comments since I have been hearing them for so long and had people taking pot-shots at the SMG system. I've had several people comment that I must not know how to drive a manual. Several keep calling it an auto. Its really dumb.

I see tons of mis-information out there. SMG/DCT are new concepts and its really up to the owners of these to keep correcting the incorrect perceptions about the system. Some time we just get fed up and end up being quite harsh.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by southlight

Guess I must be glad you now accept the existence of group 1. Lucky me.

I always did. I don't understand them but I know they exist. I'll admit what I wrote and what I meant to write were not the same thing. I suspect you now have some idea what its like being on the other side having all the "cannot drive a manual" and "its just an auto" things thrown our way.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by enigma

I always did. I don't understand them but I know they exist. I'll admit what I wrote and what I meant to write were not the same thing. I suspect you now have some idea what its like being on the other side having all the "cannot drive a manual" and "its just an auto" things thrown our way.

Yes, it's annoying and I'm afraid will never stop.





Best regards, south

[lucid]

Originally Posted by enigma

Its the 2nd group that drives me nuts and I really don't want to lump everyone in there.

Fine, but why pay attention to those people and be defensive? If someone is buying a manual transmission car because he thinks it will make him more of a man, then they've got some serious problems with being a man. Idiots will be idiots. Sounds like you track your car often and know how to drive well/fast. Isn't that what matters? And, why make a signature out of "Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars"? What's the point of that? Doesn't that express the same type of sentiment as the statement "DCT is for people who can't drive" does?

[rai]

I'm glad BMW is offering both MT and Dual-clutch MT. Rather than MT and Auto-box (Porsche) or Auto-box and nothing (BMW/Lexus).

I happen to think 3-pedal MT is going to be a part of cars as long as we have IC engine cars (some may say the internal combustion engine is not long for this world) but there will always be nuts who will fire them up even after most are all in electric pods or in teleportation chambers etc..

Same with 3-pedal MTs and Film Cameras and real charcoal BBQs even tho we all have microwave which are great sometimes the old way is still good.


Glad for both and I'd be happy to own either.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by drburton

This thread really reflects poorly on the maturity of this forum. I think both transmissions have their place and its great that BMW is giving the consumer the right to choose. Either way, one isn't necessarily 'superior' to the other, it is completely up to the user. Yes the DCT is faster, but to those who like to use a manual that doesn't necessarily mean 'better'.

For me, I was planning to get the DCT b/c I thought it would be great to have on the track (my heel/toe is not very efficient). I took my Boxster S out of hibernation last week and it reminded me of the joy I get from a manual. Since 90% of my driving is not on a track, I think I will opt for the manual. I don't in any way look down on those who choose the DCT, it seems like a really great transmission.

Have some respect for other people's opinions and needs.

For me this was a straightforward issue. I really like to drive and just want my next car to be fun. A tenth either way to 60 mph or the 1/4 mile isn't important. I don't race for a career.

Despite some of the colloquy almost all of the comments have been helpful to me. It is great to solicit opinions on something that will affect me every day. Thanks for continuing to post your opinions on this since I don't have people that I know with SMG or DSG experience.

I bet there are some lurkers as well that have gained from this topic.

[rai]

Part of me is thinking I will keep my S2000 which has a great MT and get the M3 for all around goodness and usefullness and a dual-clutch would be great for a change (never had one).

To be honest, I have not driven either, but if it's a toss-up then I'd just go with the MT and save $2700.

I won't be buying a MT or buying a M3 to show off. I'm not impressed by other people's cars. I like nice cars but it doesn't make me like the owner. I know two guys that own M5s and think one is cool and think one is an ass (stuck-up) but that's with or without his car.

[GarryF]

Note that buying a MT to show off is probably just a USA issue, in the UK and most other countries 90% of cars are MT and you have to pass your test in one so you don't drive a MT to impress people, everyone just considers them normal.

Maybe I should have got DCT so the wife wouldn't know how to drive the M3...