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08-31-2008, 08:25 AM | #24 |
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08-31-2008, 09:52 AM | #25 |
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I wonder what tires were used for this lap. It was probably either full out race rubber or DOT legal race rubber.
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08-31-2008, 10:15 AM | #26 | |
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Be good, TomK
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08-31-2008, 12:21 PM | #27 |
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My experience of the Viper is restricted to a spell in the passenger seat about 5 years ago and the experience was not what I was expecting. The Viper was about the worst built piece of shit I ever sat in, for the £75K (yeah that's right ($140K)) they were looking I was gobsmacked just how poor everything about it was. Sure American cars in general aren't built to the same standard that most quality European brand are but this thing took the biscuit.
The ride quality, a very loose term when used with the Viper was awful, if you had placed a coin on the road surface I bet you would have felt in through your backside. Yes I might have a very negative opinion of the Viper but the same doesn't include the Corvette, especially the latest versions which have addressed many of the failings that separated it from other European exotics. Accept that the Viper isn't built for any purpose other than going quickly on a track and gives no compromise for driver or passenger comfort compared to the other cars that's times are just below it and we will have at least come to a compromise of opinions. P.S. The Radical is no kit car, far from it. The quality of the controls and equipment used is of the highest standard and it covered the same lap almost 30 seconds quicker with an engine barely bigger than the starter motor of the Viper. GB 1 - USA 0. |
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08-31-2008, 02:07 PM | #28 |
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The other visible metric of quality would be the sizes and fit of all the shifter linakge bushings/bearings. They clearly suck. I call that a design and quality issue.
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08-31-2008, 08:30 PM | #29 | |
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OK, figuring perhaps I missed something, I went back to the video, and watched it twice more, front to back - and found absolutely zero reason for you to think the way you do. In fact, shift action seemed routinely crisp throughout. I hereby challenge any and all readers of this string to find a trace of the slop in the shifter that Swamp finds to be evidence of poor quality. Swamp, what you're referring to is engine/transmission movement caused by 500+ foot pounds of torque fed through non-solid motor mounts. You'll find similar movement in a Z06, or in fact any other big-inch, high-torque engine/transmission combo. The linkage, having been bolted directly into the transmission in this case, faithfully follows along. It simply isn't a quality issue. It's the nature of the beast, and the only way around it is to go to solid engine and transmission mounts, which when installed in any street car will make it feel as if you're sitting in a blender. OK, I stand corrected. You could also theoretically remote mount the shift mechanism (only by redesigning this particular box, however), but you would only do this if shift quality akin to stirring a bucket of rocks with a baseball bat was your design goal. Bruce |
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08-31-2008, 08:36 PM | #30 | |
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The standard Viper uses custom PS2s - with Sport Cup tread compound. Bruce |
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08-31-2008, 10:48 PM | #31 | |
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Yes, that is what I meant by loosey-goosey. Especially when he kept banging it off the limiter near the beginning of the vid. I suppose I could be wrong here, especially having never driven a (nor many) vehicle with the torque of this car I guess that makes be a bit unqualified. As well my last post is very likley dead wrong. However, I still have a very strong suspicion that there are high torque MT vehicles that don't have a shifter that moves left to right, while in gear, almost as far as a shift. Think about it another way...Many vehicles out there have 1/2 - 3/4th of the torque of the ACR (heck the lil' ol M3 has over 1/2). And... miraculously... you do not see 1/2 of that movement out of these transmission levers. Do you? There must be a solution other than those you mention that won't cut it. I suppose a more sophisticated "soft" rev limiter would have helped as well. But again too sophisticated for Dodge... |
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08-31-2008, 11:11 PM | #32 | |
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The thing is not many cars out there are mapped like the ACR and would not be riding the rev limiter like that. This is just a unique case. And like you said, you can't really pass judgement unless you can drive one. |
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09-01-2008, 01:58 AM | #33 | |
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As well, in general, I am a firm believer in being able to make many judgements without seat time, some require it but many don't. |
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09-01-2008, 03:01 AM | #34 | |
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09-01-2008, 09:47 AM | #35 | ||
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Next, let me advise you to think about engine mounts, what they do, and the very basic principles involved. The thing is, you're trying to suppress individual firing impulses, and you can't just stiffen up the mounts by, say, 50% to suppress 50% more energetic pulses, or else the mount stops effectively doing what it's supposed to be doing, and you get that sitting-in-a-blender feeling. So you're going to get more engine/transmission movement in a longitudinally-mounted layout with high torque than with a lower torque application. Last, and at a complete guess, the Dodge guys may very well allow a bit more shifter movement than the absolute minimum because it would be in keeping with the car's overall persona, which more than anything else is the "Wow, what power!" feeling the vehicle conveys - combined with a studied lack of NVH control. Quote:
Really. Bruce PS - I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at such passionate positions in regard to NVH, given the forum, but even the normally mild-mannered and astute footie has been inspired into a bit of uncharacteristic (I hope) nationalism. Who woulda thunk it? PPS - If Dodge was crazy enough to knock all the rough edges off the car, they'd probably lose about two-thirds of their base, and have to hope BMW guys would come flocking to the dealerships, frantically waving cash. Yeah. And I can hear pig wings warming up on the runway. |
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09-02-2008, 01:44 AM | #36 |
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Yes, and you would see that if you read exactly what I wrote. But let me clarify and expand without contradicting.
1. I do not have direct experience with this vehicle nor others that have the same amount of torque. That makes me in some senses unqualified to speak to specific experiential aspects of such cars or what the norms may be in such cars, especially on some NVH issues. 2. Despite not having driven this car I still am of the opinion that both the behavior of the rev limiter and the vibration and total magnitude of movement of the shift lever is excessive and could be avoided through a better design. I think many watching the video, despite having never even seen an ACR could reasonably come to the same conclusion. Switching gears slightly... I think I agree with Bruce just above. Both of those issues are probably at least in part by choice or design. Nonetheless, I can't help but believe these things distract from the ability to precisely control the vehicle esp. the shifter in some small but quantifiable way. That may be as subtle as just being a major distraction or perhaps numbing to your hand over the long term. It may also be as overt as the lever becomes more difficult to move under load or it can not be moved as quickly. Call it design, call it quality, maybe some of both, one can not really answer the question without speaking to those very close to the design and engineering and none of us likely will. |
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09-02-2008, 01:59 AM | #37 | |
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Anyway, I think we finally, basically, agree - part intent, part lack of attention to NVH. |
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09-02-2008, 08:42 AM | #38 | |
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We don't need to discuss this tiny little off-topic issue any further, but when you have three minutes and the inclination, just consider the issue. Bruce |
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09-02-2008, 04:16 PM | #39 | |
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To continue the point I did not say that THE most critical thing for a mount is its ability to resist torsion. You seem to have a remarkable ability to misrepresent my words. I just believe that is a much more important factor than the effect of individual combustion pulses. Mounts have many functions, both structural and NVH, both static and dynamic, and in terms of rotational and translational DOFs. They play roles in the reduction of structure-borne noise as well as airborne noise (indirectly by source reduction). Again, I'm very open to learning more about them. |
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09-02-2008, 06:33 PM | #40 | ||
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Yeah, misrepresent. Quote:
1) Engine mounts (meaning those that aren't just brackets) have a single function, which is to reduce NVH. 2) You don't stiffen a mount in an effort to control engine pulses of a larger magnitude. If anything, you might even make it more resilient - and thus have more engine movement rather than less. End of lecture. Bruce |
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09-02-2008, 07:07 PM | #41 | |
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Even if there is "load" whilst shifting, it's the transmission housing that is shifting, not the internal shifting mechanism. I have had vehicles of more than 500hp/tq, one was a supercharged Vette...that did not have a dancing shifter. The other was a CTS-V, only 400tq, but it did have the dancing shifter. My friend's supercharged CTS-V, dances even more...even with ashort shifter. Shifting effort is not increased or shifting compromised. Be good, TomK
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09-03-2008, 02:25 AM | #42 | |
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09-03-2008, 11:31 AM | #43 | ||
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Never mind, I know why, and don't feel like reading yet another of Swamp's Sanctimonious Soliloquies. Quote:
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09-03-2008, 11:49 AM | #44 |
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OFF TOPIC
FWIW the Viper ACR is driven by reknown Dutch international racecar driver Tom Coronel. He'd never driven such a Viper before. He is Klaas Zwart's(Dutch Ascari Sportscar with BMW engines built in the UK founder) son in law. He kept it in higher revs(limiter) to be 'smoother' than using the immense torque I read somewhere. At only his third lap he set the record. |
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