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View Poll Results: Are you going to Stick with the M division or go another route | |||
Stick with the M division | 135 | 73.77% | |
Leave the M for another brand | 48 | 26.23% | |
Voters: 183. You may not vote on this poll |
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09-29-2009, 04:22 PM | #89 | |
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09-29-2009, 04:38 PM | #90 | ||
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If there's a car that you think you'll be happier with, then go for it. |
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09-29-2009, 06:30 PM | #91 |
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I believe he said "1 Series M", which is what BMW said an M-developed 1 Series would be called if it came out. No one is suggesting that they're trying to build a supercar out of the 1 Series. The M1 concept, however, does borrow the 3 cylinder diesel from the 1 Series.
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09-29-2009, 10:50 PM | #93 | |
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not to mention, so many people are getting so "IN TO" this discussion. ITS F***ING 5-6 YEARS AWAY!!!!!! GET A LIFE!
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09-30-2009, 11:00 AM | #94 | |
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I think it should be obvious that this topic matters to some poeple. There is nothing wrong with looking towards the horizon. I always get a kick from people making posts that knock discussion or attempt to belittle a topic. If you don't like the discussion, kindly remove yourself from these forums. Your input most likely will not be missed. Back on topic, In addition to just having both the M3 and M5 go FI, and with the next M coupe suggested as being the 1-series with a FI 4banger, what has me more disheartened is that they aren't even keeping any of the cars in the M line-up as NA. There is no nod to their previously awesome engines, its just going to be the same car in 3 different sizes. I believe true diversity would result in M division bringing at least 1 car to market with a high rev'ing naturally aspirated engine. I feel they are just being quite hasty in sweeping every car them make over into the turbo'd department.
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09-30-2009, 11:25 AM | #95 | |
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However, the reality is that these types of motors simply do not readily evoke efficiency among consumers, especially with many other manufacturers also jumping on the "small displacement turbo" bandwagon. I think that BMW's marketing folks - not governmental regulations - have had the biggest hand in killing their high-revving natuarlly aspirated vehicles. It just doesn't work with their new marketing line, which I will add is still vaporware in the US at least (no start/refire when coming to a stop, for example, like they have on European models). As I mentioned before (either earlier in this thread, or perhaps one of the nine other similar ones) I think that GM will continue on with the V8 Corvette and I will add that Ford will also continue on with the V8 powered Mustang. At least for the next decade - and probably longer. Both have put a ton of R&D into efficient V8s, not least because their bread-and-butter vehicles - pickup trucks - will require them for years to come due to the headstrong demographic to which they cater. At the same time both are also leading the way in turbo charged and direct injected smaller displacement engines as well. So there is room for both. Just not at BMW. |
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09-30-2009, 01:47 PM | #96 | |
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BTW, the re-defining of M cars has already begun so no it is not 5 - 6 years away. Again, I would reiterate I have real life experience with the X6 M of watching it being pushed and it is just about the most disgusting thing BMW could have done with the M car. The engine and exhaust note had no character whatsoever.
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- Lamborghini on turbocharging |
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09-30-2009, 01:49 PM | #97 | |
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Best regards, south
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09-30-2009, 02:04 PM | #98 | |
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What will be the benefit of it anyway?
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09-30-2009, 02:07 PM | #99 | |
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WHAT? How does my post seem to be self conflicting? Your example of what Im doing makes no sense at all.
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09-30-2009, 02:12 PM | #100 |
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Even with KERS though, its still going to be a version of the S63 (maybe with a new number of its own) V8, right south. I admit the KERS is intriguing, but in the end its just another way of getting power, right? I mean, it's not like it could transform the turbo V8 into a high revving V10.
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09-30-2009, 02:18 PM | #101 |
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I have a few questions for engine experts. Let's assume 2 engines, one FI and one high-revving (relatively small) NA, provide identical performance on the same car (outputs will never be the same, since FI provides better torque and NA higher HP), and weigh the same. Let's assume a 3.0L TTV6 and a 4.2L V8 (pretty much what Audi did with the S4). And let's assume both cars will always be driven identically (accelerate identically, cruise identically, etc) and weigh the same. I think all of those assumptions are pretty close to real, but comment on any of them if needed. My questions are:
1. Would the FI engine yield better fuel mileage, like auto manufacturers lead consumers to believe? I think it's about the same. 2. Would the FI engine yield a better carbon footprint? If they consume the same fuel, probably the same too. 3. Is my assumption of equal weight correct? I think it'd be equal since a TT engine has to be beefier than NA, plus the weight of the TT hardware. 4. Is the FI engine cheaper to build? I think so, but could be wrong. So far, the only clear advantage of FI over NA is slightly better packaging, no? How about cost? Trying to see the rationale of going in that direction. Maybe I'm wrong on some of my assumptions . A larger, lower revving engine comparable to the high-revving one, like a 5.0L V8, obviously adds weight on the engine and on the car, since it has to be larger to house the larger engine, so that arrangement is probably on the way out of 'mainstream' cars (like the ISF and AMG 6.3s) IMO. All comments welcome. Last edited by JCtx; 09-30-2009 at 03:51 PM.. |
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09-30-2009, 02:38 PM | #102 | ||
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Now, it is true that in general the bore center dimension effects the length of the V8 engine and deck height effects its height and width. So not all V8s are the same size of course. But the point is that you cannot generally assume that the larger displacement motor will be the larger physically sized motor. This is especially true when you consider head design also. GMs pushrod V8s are very compact for example. |
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09-30-2009, 02:41 PM | #103 | ||
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Best regards, south
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09-30-2009, 02:56 PM | #104 | ||||
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Best regards, south
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09-30-2009, 03:52 PM | #105 |
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South,
Have you ever driven a car with KERS? I personally haven't, was looking to get an idea of what it's like. It's implementation in F1 is so limited (1x 6s burst per lap?) its hard to notice when they use it.
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09-30-2009, 04:35 PM | #106 |
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Look at what Porsche has done. They started with a '99 911 with an NA 3.4 at 295BHP and now are at 3.8 with 385BHP and 435BHP respectively on the GT3. They have stuck with and continued to develop and improve on the same NA, flat6 block.
M division had a masterpiece with the 3.2 liter I6 putting out 330BHP. Had they continued along the same path, they would have an NA, 6 cylinder 3.6 or 3.8 liter putting out around 400BHP. Instead they cut corners by using (the no doubt marvelous) 4.0 V8, but now they have to back track and go back to the 6 and simply throw Turbo's on it. I don't like the smell of this, at all....
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09-30-2009, 04:48 PM | #107 |
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09-30-2009, 04:52 PM | #108 |
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It's simple, my brother. Instead of continuing to develop and bore out the I6, they cut corners by cutting 2 cylinders off the m5's V10 and slapped it in the M3.
I'm not saying it's not an amazing engine, it is. But, now they have to backtrack and have no real new development on the I6. I don't know about you, but I'd like the new M3 to be an N.A. 3.6 liter I6 with 400BHP that reds at around 9000!! By contrast, can you imagine if the 997 911 was a V8, then they decided to go backwards, back to a flat6 and throw some turbo's on it so it had the power we expect since we had the 420 in the V8?? HELL NO!! This is where BMW M screwed up, and we're just supposed to accept that, as doing things the "right" way? I don't think so.
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09-30-2009, 04:57 PM | #109 | |
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The 5.0 Liter V10 was the best engine to make as a basis for the development of the V8, which they did. However, I really believe they should have put direct injection in it (though it makes the car difficult to modify like the RS4 and IS-F have no aftermarket performance parts) and extracted more peak torque at high rpms of around 315 - 317 ft-lbs@5000 rpm (and hence more horsepower over 6000 rpm) and then it pretty much as perfect as it could be. |
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10-01-2009, 04:35 AM | #110 |
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I thought the story behind the S65 was that BMW made the S85 for F1 but then F1 mandated V8s. So BMW made the S65.
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